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Students' loans

Songcatcher

Songcatcher

Stud Muffin
Joined
Jul 25, 2002
Posts
25,989
So, universities let people in debt when they graduate.

University industrial complex.


That's what it is.



discuss
 
Actually there are several problems.

1. The irrational belief within the middle and upper middle classes that only a degree from a "top-flight" university will assure their offspring's financial success. This is shown to be a lie by the fact that the most lucrative career in California is plumber.

2. Students equate status with quality and cost with status.

3. The inflation of education costs exceeds that of the general economy as a whole.

4. And as The Fool so pithily pointed out, no one is required to go to college.
 
Songcatcher said:
So, universities let people in debt when they graduate.

University industrial complex.

That's what it is.

discuss
Click to expand...

Would you expect the university to withhold a degree from somebody who had indebtedness upon completion of coursework? :eek:
 
voluptuary_manque said:
Actually there are several problems.

1. The irrational belief within the middle and upper middle classes that only a degree from a "top-flight" university will assure their offspring's financial success. This is shown to be a lie by the fact that the most lucrative career in California is plumber.

2. Students equate status with quality and cost with status.

3. The inflation of education costs exceeds that of the general economy as a whole.

4. And as The Fool so pithily pointed out, no one is required to go to college.
Click to expand...

Good points.

This is what it is: http://tarpley.net/online-books/against-oligarchy/how-the-dead-souls-of-venice-corrupted-science/
 
In the UK in the 1950s and 1960s, if you qualified and were accepted for University, you would receive a grant to cover living and travel expenses from the local City Hall. It was rarely enough but as there were no tuition fees, a student could just about survive on the grant.

Gradually the value of the grant was eroded by inflation. The number of students as a proportion of school leavers grew. Parents had to top-up the grants and many students took holiday or part-time jobs to fund their degrees.

The Labour Government of Tony Blair had an objective of sending 50% of all school-leavers to university. Why? The increased demand meant that universities expanded, polytechnics that taught specialist work-related skills became universities, and the range of courses expanded to mean-nothing qualifications.

BUT - grants stopped. Tuition fees were introduced. Student loans were set up. Students who graduate this year will owe thousands of pounds to the student loan company for a degree that might be useless when applying for a job. We now face a crisis. There are more potential students than the universities can possibly accept; courses are no longer offered unless sufficient foreign (i.e. full-cost paying) students are available; and many recent graduates face unemployment and massive debts or McJobs that will never repay their debts.

Why did the government think that 50% of our young people needed a degree? Employers want people who can read, write, add up and who will turn up to work - consistently. Even a degree doesn't guarantee that a potential employee will meet that basic requirement.

Og
 
oggbashan said:
In the UK in the 1950s and 1960s, if you qualified and were accepted for University, you would receive a grant to cover living and travel expenses from the local City Hall. It was rarely enough but as there were no tuition fees, a student could just about survive on the grant.

Gradually the value of the grant was eroded by inflation. The number of students as a proportion of school leavers grew. Parents had to top-up the grants and many students took holiday or part-time jobs to fund their degrees.

The Labour Government of Tony Blair had an objective of sending 50% of all school-leavers to university. Why? The increased demand meant that universities expanded, polytechnics that taught specialist work-related skills became universities, and the range of courses expanded to mean-nothing qualifications.

BUT - grants stopped. Tuition fees were introduced. Student loans were set up. Students who graduate this year will owe thousands of pounds to the student loan company for a degree that might be useless when applying for a job. We now face a crisis. There are more potential students than the universities can possibly accept; courses are no longer offered unless sufficient foreign (i.e. full-cost paying) students are available; and many recent graduates face unemployment and massive debts or McJobs that will never repay their debts.

Why did the government think that 50% of our young people needed a degree? Employers want people who can read, write, add up and who will turn up to work - consistently. Even a degree doesn't guarantee that a potential employee will meet that basic requirement.

Og
Click to expand...

Understood.


What about the quality of the teachers?
 
I've done it all.

I completed a 4 year union apprenticeship w/ 4 years of classroom training.
I completed several technical schools to acquire collateral training related to my union craft (welding, refrigeration theory, cost estimating, etc)
Plus 8 years of college and a Masters Degree (60 hours).

Now in my 60s, it seems to me most of it was useless waste of time and expense.

If I ruled the world education would be restricted to the acquisition of competence in mathematics, writing, and critical analysis. Degrees would be limited to medicine, engineering, and pure science. Maybe agriculture.
 
When I was a student in UK about 15 years ago, only teacher who I liked was a German.

He didn't bullshit me.
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
I've done it all.

I completed a 4 year union apprenticeship w/ 4 years of classroom training.
I completed several technical schools to acquire collateral training related to my union craft (welding, refrigeration theory, cost estimating, etc)
Plus 8 years of college and a Masters Degree (60 hours).

Now in my 60s, it seems to me most of it was useless waste of time and expense.

If I ruled the world education would be restricted to the acquisition of competence in mathematics, writing, and critical analysis. Degrees would be limited to medicine, engineering, and pure science. Maybe agriculture.
Click to expand...

So, you were incompetant at everything?
 
JAMESBJOHNSON said:
I've done it all.

I completed a 4 year union apprenticeship w/ 4 years of classroom training.
I completed several technical schools to acquire collateral training related to my union craft (welding, refrigeration theory, cost estimating, etc)
Plus 8 years of college and a Masters Degree (60 hours).

Now in my 60s, it seems to me most of it was useless waste of time and expense.

If I ruled the world education would be restricted to the acquisition of competence in mathematics, writing, and critical analysis. Degrees would be limited to medicine, engineering, and pure science. Maybe agriculture.
Click to expand...

Utilitarian. Aristotle is rolling over in his grave.
 
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