Struggling with dialogue layout.

[HappySpouse]

When I am reading a book or story I don't like too many details for me to build my own image. Like if someone describes a bedroom as "having pale sunlight coming through a grey curtain" that's enough for me. I don't want the material and length of the curtain, the size of the window or cubic feet of the bedroom unless those things are necessary to facilitate something. Otherwise I can't get into the story because I'm too busy rearranging the room I see.

This carries over to conversations for me. I prefer to be set up with who the people are and why they're talking, then just have straight dialogue with no "He said," "she replied". HOWEVER, it was recently suggested that this style didn't fit well in a story someone was kind enough to read and give notes on. So, I tried rewriting a few conversations in paragraph form. I like some things about it, but I don't think I have much skill at it. So, Here is an example.

Emma got up and took a shower, starting her typical prework routine. It felt normal, and that made her feel better, more clear-headed. Soon, Jason would be home without the kids (who were staying behind at Grandma’s) to eat dinner. Since she was awake early, she thought maybe they should eat out. This would both be a rare treat and would keep Jason from attacking her overstimulated body while they had the house to themselves. So, she called.

J: “You’re up early.”

E: “I am, and I want to eat out.”

J: “That’s what I was planning to do.” (That man never let a sex pun go by)

E: “How about Mexican?”

J: “I was hoping for redhead, but I suppose I can settle for Mexican. I’m closer to there than home. How about we meet there in about 20-25 minutes?”

E: “Sounds good to me. I’m all ready to go.”

J: “Wow, you must have been up really early”

E: “Yeah, I couldn’t sleep well. I had a weird morning. I’ll tell you about at dinner. Love You.”

J: “Okay, love you, too. Bye.”

That is exactly how I want the conversation to go. It is intentionally mundane conversation between people who talk everyday, but are having an unusual day. (Also she works nights if you're wondering why she is waking up for dinner.) This is me trying to write it out in a different format:

Emma got up and took a shower, starting her typical prework routine. It felt normal, and that made her feel better, more clear-headed. Soon, Jason would be home without the kids (who were staying behind at Grandma’s) to eat dinner. Since she was awake early, she thought maybe they should eat out. This would both be a rare treat and would keep Jason from attacking her overstimulated body while they had the house to themselves. So, she called.

Jason answered by saying, “You’re up early.” Emma was afraid he might ask why, so she spoke before he had a chance to follow up, “I am, and I want to eat out”. Never letting a sex pun to waste, Jason said “That’s what I was planning to do.” Emma snickered despite the fact that she was also rolling her eyes. It felt reassuring to laugh even that little bit and it calmed her nerves. To set him up again she said, “How about Mexican?”, Emma knew what would come next. “I was hoping for Redhead, but I can settle for Mexican.” Jason laughed at his own joke before continuing, “I can be there before I can be home. How about we meet there in about 20-25 minutes?”

Emma had hoped he was closer, but tried to feign cheerfulness saying, “Sounds good to me, I’m all ready to go.” Both people noticed the vibe was off at this point. They could almost see each other’s wrinkled brows through the speakers. “Wow, you must have been up really early.” Jason said it as a statement, but it felt like a question. Emma knew she had to give him something or he would pry to deep, and she wasn’t ready. After what was just barely too long of a pause for Jason to not realized she was flustered, she said, “Yeah, I couldn’t sleep well. I had a weird morning. I’ll tell you about it at dinner. Love You.”

In married phone speak, “Love You” means “We’re done here.”

Jason knew prying would do no good. He would just have to wait until dinner, “Okay, love you, too. Bye”

I'm not really in love with either layout, but would appreciate thoughts, opinions, examples, votes, prayers, jokes, or whatever else I can get.

 

[Enchantment_of_Nyx]

When I am reading a book or story I don't like too many details for me to build my own image. Like if someone describes a bedroom as "having pale sunlight coming through a grey curtain" that's enough for me. I don't want the material and length of the curtain, the size of the window or cubic feet of the bedroom unless those things are necessary to facilitate something. Otherwise I can't get into the story because I'm too busy rearranging the room I see.

This carries over to conversations for me. I prefer to be set up with who the people are and why their talking then just have straight dialogue with no "He said," "she replied". HOWEVER, it was recently suggested that this style didn't fit well in a story someone was kind enough to read and give notes on. So, I tried rewriting a few conversations in paragraph form. I like some things about it, but I don't think I have much skill at it. So, Here is an example.

That is exactly how I want the conversation to go. It is intentionally mundane conversation between people who talk everyday, but are having an unusual day. (Also she works nights if you're wondering why she is waking up for dinner.) This is me trying to write it out in a different format:



I'm not really in love with either layout, but would appreciate thoughts, opinions, examples, votes, prayers, jokes, or whatever else I can get.

There are people here whose fingers will twitch in anticipation of formatting all of that according to the rules, so I'll leave that to them. I'll just say that I think version 2 is a very definite improvement. It can be done in ways that separates the two speakers' dialog and makes the parts in between flow more smoothly, and I have no doubt you'll be receiving demonstrations of that. Unless you're very lucky, also a recommendation to read the gospel by Leonard Elmore.

The reason version 2 works better for me is that dialog often does better when it's supported with little bits of information that wouldn't be evident in the character's words. I think it helps everything flow, too. Version 1 reminded me of a play, and the thing about a play is that reading it is not the same as seeing it performed. The actors supply the information that otherwise goes in the non-dialog portions of the narrative. Since you don't have the actors, I think it's helpful to provide that information another way.

 

[lovecraft68]

The second example is much better, the first one has a lot wrong with it, both in formatting-I'll let the red pen brigade get into that, and it just comes across awkward, maybe because its just a continuous exchange with nothing else, whereas the second one has some meat in between the bread of the conversation.

 

[NotWise]

For

'To set him up again she said, “How about Mexican?”, Emma knew what would come next.'

I would probably replace the comma after Mexican?" by a semicolon, or a period.

I don't think a comma, semicolon or period is needed. The question mark can end the sentence. Using US style, any punctuation at the end of the quoted text would go inside the quotation marks.

 

[KeithD]

Neither fly well in fiction. The first example is for technical manuals, not narrative fiction. The problem with the second is that you've included dialogue from more than one person in the same paragraph. The most accepted fiction style--the easiest to read--is to keep dialogue from separate characters in separate paragraphs and also not to divide the consecutive dialogue by one character into separate consecutive paragraphs without making it very clear you're still with that speaker.

 

[KeithD]

Personally, I'm not a fan of the first.

The second example, I would slightly rewrite, giving each character their own paragraphs.



For

'To set him up again she said, “How about Mexican?”, Emma knew what would come next.'

I would probably replace the comma after Mexican?" by a semicolon, or a period.

same for the comma after 'follow up' ' so she spoke before he had a chance to follow up, “I am, and I want to eat out”.'

comma after 'Jason said',

etc. etc.

This is how my editorial training sets these two examples up in American style:

To set him up again, she said, “How about Mexican?” Emma knew what would come next. [The question mark is terminal punctuation for the first sentence. "Emma" starts a new sentence. I also would put a comma between "again" and "she," setting up the dialogue slug. The introductory phrase also is long enough that the Chicago Manuel of Style would call for it to be set off by a comma.]

so she spoke before he had a chance to follow up. “I am, and I want to eat out.”
[The first isn't a dialogue slug. It's a separate sentence. And American style is to put the period inside the double quote there at the last.]

 

[HappySpouse]

Haha both are just in progress, but I'm not afraid of the "red pen brigade". I know the rules and I'll side step them as I please. What the rules are often depends on the age of your teacher anyway.

The consensus, thus far, is fascinating to me. I read the second one as clunky, tripping over unnecessary bulk. Every non-dialogue word in there was only inserted to allow someone to speak, but the control freak in me kinda likes telling people how exactly to interpret the speech.

I suppose separating each statement by line might give it a bit of it's conversational feel back. I just feel the flow of a story hitch every time "said," appears.

I want readers to enjoy it and I seem to be in the minority, so maybe I'll keep trying to convert and see if I find Jesus in the process.

 

[Voboy]

To be honest, both would annoy me. The second would annoy me more, to the point of no longer wanting to read it. I think, if I'm understanding you properly, I'd react best to the way you had it before you gave it to the person who "was kind enough to read it and give notes on" it. Though even that would irritate me; I'd find it repetitive.

Call me conventional, I guess.

 

[HappySpouse]

Keith, while we're nitpicking, I'll make sure to let Manuel know you like his style.

 

[KeithD]

I'm not afraid of the "red pen brigade". I know the rules and I'll side step them as I please.

Actually, no, not here at Literotica. You'll only sidestep them at the sufferance of the submissions editor, Laurel. The fastest you learn that and grasp that "it's not all about the author," the fewer writing headaches you're going to have here.

 

[HappySpouse]

To be honest, both would annoy me. The second would annoy me more, to the point of no longer wanting to read it. I think, if I'm understanding you properly, I'd react best to the way you had it before you gave it to the person who "was kind enough to read it and give notes on" it. Though even that would irritate me; I'd find it repetitive.

Call me conventional, I guess.

They both kind of annoy me, too. That's the problem. The finished product would probably just have been the quotes without the letters and colons. Now I'm waffling a good deal.

 

[KeithD]

Keith, while we're nitpicking, I'll make sure to let Manuel know you like his style.

You're going to get more and better help here when you ask for it and folks make the time and effort to respond if you tone down that attitude. You're the one asking for help.

 

[HappySpouse]

You're going to get more and better help here when you ask for it and folks make the time and effort to respond if you tone down that attitude. You're the one asking for help.

Sorry if it came off more snarky than playful. I'm not used to having these conversations with people that don't know me. In regards to your other comment, I don't think it's all about me. If that were the case I wouldn't have even considered writing in a format I don't particularly like. I just didn't like that product either. I assure you I'm absorbing every suggestion.

 

[Brutal_One]

I probably don’t have the experience to answer the OP. I have had my own dilemma’s with dialog but the community here definitely helped. I was more interested (or wanted to be) in the characters. I think as outlines it works okay (to an extent) but character building and motivations might help.

This may also lead to a more natural dialog. Maybe you can do without he said, she said but for the dialog to work that way in my humble opinion we would need more on the character’s motivation and background. That type of narrative I don’t see putting readers off as they want to know who they are reading about.

Brutal One

 

[NotWise]

Your first example is cleanly in Emma's point of view. Your second example head-hops between Emma and Jason a couple times. The first example would be consistent if the rest of the story is in third person limited, from Emma's point of view. The second example needs to be in a story written in third person omniscient.

You can also avoid some "he said/she said" instances by using actions to focus the reader on the person speaking. That has the advantage of adding movement to the conversation, but it may also add more detail than you want.

 

[HappySpouse]

I probably don’t have the experience to answer the OP. I have had my own dilemma’s with dialog but the community here definitely helped. I was more interested (or wanted to be) in the characters. I think as outlines it works okay (to an extent) but character building and motivations might help.

This may also lead to a more natural dialog. Maybe you can do without he said, she said but for the dialog to work that way in my humble opinion we would need more on the character’s motivation and background. That type of narrative I don’t see putting readers off as they want to know who they are reading about.

It is pulled out of the middle, so there would be more context beforehand. Do you think it would help to insert more parenthetical statements into the first style?

Your first example is cleanly in Emma's point of view. Your second example head-hops between Emma and Jason a couple times. The first example would be consistent if the rest of the story is in third person limited, from Emma's point of view. The second example needs to be in a story written in third person omniscient.

It is written from Emma's point of view. Occasionally we see someone right before she comes in or right after she leaves, but never see anyone off somewhere without her.

 

[Brutal_One]

This is maybe nit picking.

J: “I was hoping for redhead, but I suppose I can settle for Mexican. I’m closer to there than home. How about we meet there in about 20-25 minutes?”

To

J: “I was hoping for a redhead, but I suppose I can settle for Mexican. I’m closer to there than home. How about we meet there in about 20-25 minutes?”

Without context but is Emma a redhead perhaps? Making the pun clever if we knew. I guess also the whole conversation can run without the E and J. Separate lines for each dialog line but it would be clear I suggest of who starts the conversation and the to and from dialog which I guess is what you were after from the OP.

 

[SimonDoom]

I dislike both, strongly.

Both are much harder to read and less intelligible than the usual way of handling dialogue.

As to the first, there is no sense whatsoever in which the standard use of dialogue tags in some but not all lines is improved by adding the character's first initial to every single one. It's odd and distracting and repetitive. It's less fun to read.

The second has 2 big problems. The first is compressing multiple lines of dialogue into large paragraphs. Why do this? It's harder to read. Using separate paragraphs when switching characters in dialogue almost always is both clearer and more fun to read.

The second problem is that your narrator steps all over the dialogue with all the introductory phrases and clauses. Keep dialogue simple. Show don't tell.

"I love you," he said.

Is so much better than

He followed her gesture with, "I love you."

You do this so much it becomes a kind of affectation. It's distracting.

In dialogue, make sure that many of your dialogue lines begin with the dialogue rather than the tag or narrative snippet.

Like this: "I love you," he said.

Rather than

He said, "I love you."

Or

He replied by saying, "I love you."

Why?

Because the strongest most interesting part of the sentence is the spoken word. Make it go first, not all the time but more often than not.

 

[HappySpouse]

Yeah. She's a redhead. I left the "a" out to make it sound like a cuisine to contrast Mexican. The letters and colons seem to be irking people more than the lack of dialogue tags. I originally didn't have those, but thought about my wife who complained about a book recently that, "never tells you who's talking."

 

[lovecraft68]

Here is a couple of good How to essays on the subject that may help

The first one was very helpful to me when I first started here

https://www.literotica.com/s/how-to-make-characters-talk

https://www.literotica.com/s/let-the-characters-do-the-talking

 

[HappySpouse]

I dislike both, strongly.

I'm not too fond of them either. However the "normal" way of writing dialogue is my least favorite part of most books.

The second has 2 big problems. The first is compressing multiple lines of dialogue into large paragraphs. Why do this? It's harder to read. Using separate paragraphs when switching characters in dialogue almost always is both clearer and more fun to read.

I was just trying something. The first paragraph is admittedly trash. The second one is done that way because it is all one moment to me, where the normal discourse picks up tension. Then an explanatory statement from me as the penultimate chord before the resolution of ending the call.

To take the music comparison too far, I think I lost the melody in the orchestration.

 

[Brutal_One]

Yeah. She's a redhead. I left the "a" out to make it sound like a cuisine to contrast Mexican. The letters and colons seem to be irking people more than the lack of dialogue tags. I originally didn't have those, but thought about my wife who complained about a book recently that, "never tells you who's talking."

Maybe too clever by half for me. Everone has heard of a Mexican, Chinese, Indian etc but never heard of a redhead. I guess readers may like the pun more if written that way than interpreting the character meant it as a type of food.

 

[HappySpouse]

Here is a couple of good How to essays on the subject that may help

The first one was very helpful to me when I first started here

https://www.literotica.com/s/how-to-make-characters-talk

https://www.literotica.com/s/let-the-characters-do-the-talking

I just read the bottom one, and the 7 signs at the end are fantastic. In general it has driven me back toward my original plan of no tags at all.

 

[lovecraft68]

Maybe too clever by half for me. Everone has heard of a Mexican, Chinese, Indian etc but never heard of a redhead. I guess readers may like the pun more if written that way than interpreting the character meant it as a type of food.

Whenever someone says clever, I always think of the line in Fight Club...Pitt to Norton
"So how's that working out for you, being clever?"
Sometimes its easy to outsmart ourselves

 

[HappySpouse]

Maybe too clever by half for me. Everone has heard of a Mexican, Chinese, Indian etc but never heard of a redhead. I guess readers may like the pun more if written that way than interpreting the character meant it as a type of food.

Truth be told, Jason is me, and my favorite thing to eat is my redheaded wife. I can see how someone less orally fixated might not pick up on that. It's a close call, and I think I'll wait until I know just how it will be laid out before deciding.