Story Discussion Drlust Main Queue 4-25-05

[drlust]

Hello all:

I've recently posted the story linked below on literotica and I'm hoping for feedback on it. The reason I've chosen this one for your review is that I have been surprised to find that it has turned out to the be the most highly rated of my stories thus far and, quite frankly, I'm puzzled by this. It's not that I don't like the story, but I wrote it in a hurry--it kind of appeared in my brain fully formed one day--and I did not agonize over it as much as I typically do with others that I have written. So, what I'm wondering, at least in part, is whether the story is popular because it is "fresh" in the sense that it appears largely as I wrote it on the first go 'round rather than after much editing and re-editing?

I know you can't really say whether this is true or not, but I'm hoping that, as you critique it, you'll pinpoint aspects of the story that work and aspects that don't and this will give me some hints that will help answer my question.

It's also quite possible that this story is more highly rated than others I've written because the audience in the sci-fi genre is more forgiving/less demanding. This is my first submission under that heading.

In any case, I'll be very interested to read your feedback on the story.

The link is: http://english.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=193994

And yes, I caught the typo (lightening rather than lightning) after it had been approved. Anyone know how to fix typos in stories that are already up?

Thanks for taking this on.

Best,

Allan

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Allan,

I had mixed feelings about this story yesterday when I read it and they linger today. I guess the biggest feeling is one of disappointment; I thought the setup was ideal to explore some interesting themes, but these opportunities were, I fear, squandered.

The biggest plausibility issue for me was not the science, but Christina's overt sexuality. I hadn't seen enough of this woman to believe it when she said, "Tom, I'm too drunk to fuck, otherwise I'd invite you in." I didn't believe it then; and I believed it less when he came back the next day and she really did fuck him. That first erotic scene did nothing for me, most probably because I did not understand Christina's feelings or motivations.

But that's one action by one character. Not like it ruins the story. What's really missing, for me, was conflict. For a time, I wondered if the plan was to lure the reader into a false sense of security and then have Christina turn out to be a serious villain. If the experimental device turned out to have some addictive or other power, making the narrator her minion, willing or otherwise, I thought that would have been a nice twist. Or maybe she might not have tested it on a human yet, and needed one. This would have gone far to explain her ealier behavior.

There was a moment when she had him on the table and forbade him touch himself- at that moment I thought the story was going to take off. Instead, it more of less fizzled. After that, I never felt any tension.

The conclusion left me feeling like I had perhaps missed something. As it is, I don't see how either character is much changed by the story. Yeah, he says at the end he found love, but all I saw was lust. Of course, first-person narrators can be mistaken, prejudiced, or even dishonest, and thereby tell a story that isn't quite true- but I don't think that was the intent here. Lust can be as interesting as love, but when it occurs without reasons I understand or at the instigation of a machine, I can't help but feel detached.

I have a few minor comments about sentence structure and dialogue.

Some examples of conversations I liked:
"I'm Tom," I said. "Master of the smoked meats."
"I'm Christina," she said. "Acolyte of the smoked meats."

And a little later:
She took a long pull on her beer before answering and then said, "Ah indeed. Yes, it's all very tawdry actually."
"So you admit it then?" I asked, getting into the game. "Naked students running around the lab and all that?"
"I wish," she said. "No, nothing quite that tawdry."
"Do you mind if I ask for specifics," I prodded. "I can keep a secret."
She looked at me closely for a second or two, took another pull on her beer, then said, "Sure, you can ask, but I won't tell."

Then there are some pieces I found less than stellar.

This section struck me as not likely even between two sober persons, much less a couple so drunk they are worried about losing their way:
"Come over here," she said. Then, giggling, "That is, if you can remember how to get here when you wake up tomorrow."
"Don't you worry about that, my dear," I replied. "I've never yet missed an offer of a free dinner from a beautiful woman."
"'kay," she said. "Get out of here then. And don't kiss me! I've got a nosy old bat of a neighbor and I don't want to give her the satisfaction."

The following part seems particularly emotionless, as if the characters are discussing the opera instead of sex:
"Nice," she said. "Very nice."
"Yes," I agreed. "It seems that you, unlike me, are multi-orgasmic."
"True," she said. "But not always. You're very good."
"Thanks," I said. "I aim to please."

Sentence structure also jarred me on a few occasions. For instance:
This, of course, requires the supervision of a cooler of beer strategically placed under a shade tree nearby.
The trailing nearby 'feels' out of place to me. I don't know that there's anything technically incorrect with the placement, but it I think the flow would be more natural with the nearby preceding shade.
Another:
I reached into the cooler, pulled out an icy Heineken, popped the top and handed it to her once she'd gotten comfortable in her chair.
The final clause, once she'd gotten comfortable in her chair, seems like an afterthought. Again, not wrong, but subtly jarring.

One last minor nit, these two statements would appear to contradict one another:
... if I had been sober, I could have judged whether Christina was too.
Yep, she was drunk alright. Takes one to know one.

Those few sentences and conversations I found awkward were the exception rather than the norm. For the most part, the story is well-written and thus easy read. The descriptions are good and the pace reasonable. The characters are generally sound and the dialogue lively, except as noted. As a quick write, it's certainly nothing to be ashamed of, but the end still left me thinking, "Yeah? So?"

Take Care,
Penny


P.S.
I thought the title was pretty funny; even if it was borrowed, you worked that in nicely. I'm not a fan of Woody Allen, so I've never seen the movie mentioned.

 

[drlust]

Hi Penny:

Thanks for the careful review of this somewhat silly story.

I'm interested in your comment about Christina's sexuality. This is actually one of the issues I pondered on when I was writing the piece. I made her come on strong like that because I conceived of her as this woman who spends all her time at work surrounded by issues of sexuality (and works in a lab where her grad students are doing the unofficial research trials that appear later in the story), so I thought of her as being frank and even demanding in her approach to sex. I agree, though, that I didn't do a very good job of foregrounding this. I've written a number of longer pieces (too long for literotica, so they are currently unpublished), but in this short form I often struggle to get the groundwork laid--so I think you are right on target here.

You are very perceptive to focus in on that moment when she barks at him to not touch himself. I initially wrote the next paragraph having her use the power she now has over him to engage in some real sexual power play. But then I changed my mind and decided that I wanted her to be someone seeking a more "normal" relationship with a man she considers her peer/colleague. So, I junked that story line. I'll be interested to hear what others have to say about this particular decision...

I'm glad you liked the "smoked meats" exchange. It was my favorite moment in all the dialogue I wrote in this story.

As I re-read the drunken dialogue that you highlighted, I have to say I agree. I was a bartender for many years and listened to a lot of drunken dialogue between real people, but for reasons that aren't clear to me, I seem to have a hard time writing my characters drunk.

Your points on sentence structure are all well taken.

Thanks again for taking the time on this.

Allan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

It's a wonderfully written story. There were a few times when I got impatient with the technical details, but they were well thought-out and gave a nice scientific tang to the story. (I did have to wonder how she got into heavy bio-science/physiology when it sounded like her undergrad thesis had been in sociology: the "social construction of frigidity", but that's pretty minor.)

Scenes where the characters meet and form an attraction are always tough, for me at least, and this story handled it very nicely at the barbecue. It was witty and natural and felt just right for two faculty members at a get-together. Tom's "voice" seemed right on the money for an academic, as did Chris's. The pacing of the story (aside from my impatience with the technical details) was good, the narration fairly flawless, and the prose was effortless and natural. As far as mechanics, I noticed a couple of missing question marks, but that's about it.

One naggy detail: the stuff that a man ejaculates isn't sperm. Sperm is in there, of course, but it's in there with all this fluid. The proper term for ejaculate is semen. It's kind of like saying that you bleed "corpuscles" instead of "blood". Pet peeve of mine.

Other naggy: I think maybe you overused the laughing-tits thing. It seems like she does a lot of tit-shaking laughter, and I noticed it, and after awhile I couldn't shake the image of Tom just shutting up and his eyes bugging out at her breasts whenever she chuckled. He seems kind of obsessed.

For all its impressive skill, though, the story didn't so much for me sexually, and here's why: for me, at least, orgasms aren’t the same as sex. If they were, we'd all sit home slamming the ham 24/7 instead of roaming the streets desperate for partners. Orgasms are typically the goal of sex and the literal climax of most porn stories, but a solo orgasm without human interaction is just not all that sexy, so the climax of this story just didn't do much for me. No matter how many times they come or how they thrash around on the table, there's no emotion there, and so it's very flat and lifeless.

My theory of porn is that all the various sexual acts we write about are actually symbolic expressions of the characters' interrelationship and feelings for each other. When a woman goes down on a man, the actual heat is in the way we see her as apparently subservient and yet controlling at the same time. Wild fucking is a symbol of the lover's intense and overwhelming desire for each other, and orgasm is an expression of their desire to lose themselves in each other and give themselves totally: a surrender of their entire body and soul to their lover. That's why emotionless sex is so dull and lifeless, and why "meat shots" in porn are so terribly unerotic.

Being hooked up to machine and made to come again and again, without any connection to another human being just doesn't do anything for me, no matter how good it might feel or how well the sensations are described. It's ultimately sterile, mechanical, and cold.

That's not to say that masturbation scenes can't be hot, but when they are, there's usually emotion involved, whether it's frustration or a certain amount of self-degradation. It's the writhing and groaning and expression of emotion that make it hot, not the actual details of stimulation and sensation. A masturbation scene is hot because it shows the character's relationship to him/herself.

I was kind of hoping that either he or she would use the Orgasmatron in a kind of D/s way with the other, forcing orgasms and getting off on the feeling of power and control. That would have been a legitimate kind of human interaction and pretty sexy in a fetishy kind of way: controlling your lover's sensations through a machine. But their treatment of each other seemed to be purely therapeutic, as if they were taking turns running each other through a car wash. It's such a shame that her erect nipples went for naught.

That's the ultimate thematic problem with the story for me: the utter lack of emotion on anyone's part. While I admired the way Tom and Chris meet, I didn’t really feel any attraction between these two other than the purely physical, and their lovemaking also seemed kind of cold and remote. It obviously felt good physically, but their exchange afterwards:

Nice," she said. "Very nice."
"Yes," I agreed. "It seems that you, unlike me, are multi-orgasmic."
"True," she said. "But not always. You're very good."
"Thanks," I said. "I aim to please."

while a beautiful specimen of the way academics might speak after sex, is not the speech of two people who were at all emotionally involved. They're very stingy with their feelings.

You say that the story's doing well, so it could just be that this is a matter of my own personal taste. I personally don’t read much science fiction these days, because I got tired of reading stories that were more about things than about people, so obviously personal taste has a lot to do with it.

Really, it's a beautiful piece of craftsmanship and I envy both your story-telling ability and the ease and grace with which you write. It's clever and imaginative and witty. I just wish there'd been more emotion in it, more of a feeling of two people interacting, even if it was only through the machine.

Best,

---dr.M.

P.S. Just went back and read Penny's comments and your reply, and I see that you toyed with the idea of Chris playing with him while he was on the table in the way I said. I wished you had. That would have been very interesting, and Tom really seems like he's begging for someone to come along and break through his academic composure.

I know that the image of Chris in in the control room with her blouse partially opened and eyes gleaming as she makes his cock jump and spurt on the table does it for me.

 

[drlust]

Dr. M.

Hi Dr. M.

Thanks for the careful read of this story. I'm glad you liked the dialogue. As an academic myself, I spend a lot of time listening to the way we talk to one another...in faculty meetings, over lunch, at the pub, and I have to admit we're a pretty dull bunch as a rule. Too many of us try to hard to impress one another with our diction and vocabulary. It often comes off as stilted and almost unreal. Fortunately, we're not all that way, so there are real human conversations as well, free of the b.s. and the big words. Even so, we're part of a larger culture of language and so we're all probably a bit more stilted than the average person. Put two of us together and it's much, much worse. When I wrote this piece, I was trying to make both of them sound just like my colleagues, so I'm glad it sounded that way to you.

I can see already that I missed an opportunity with this story to get into some fun power games in the lab! Maybe I'll re-write it and walk through that door...As for the orgasms being emotionless, I think this is a really interesting point that I hadn't considered when I wrote the piece. Thanks for pointing that out. I think there's an interesting tension here between the person experiencing the orgasms, who just wants them to keep going, and the person supplying them, who is likely feeling much less enjoyment than would be the case if, for instance, she were watching her man masturbate to orgasm for her enjoyment as the viewer. If I were to re-write this (and I just might once I've heard from more people here), I think I would explore this more.


I'm interested in your comment about not getting turned on as you read the story. I wrestle with this when I write erotica...is the point of what I'm writing to turn the reader on, or to tell a story that might or might not turn him/her on? I don't want to include something just because I hope my reader is getting hard or wet as he/she reads it, but at the same time, this is erotica, no? Detective fiction requires tensio and uncertainty, so I suppose erotica requires a turn on. I have to think about this some more.

Point well taken about sperm vs. semen!

Thanks again for your comments.

Allan

 

[Pure]

It's kind of a fun read, relatively smooth. Reasonably well drawn out-- makes you wait.

That said, the course is fairly predictable. Further, the problem is to describe earth shattering orgasms and you didn't do a bad job, but not an original or excellent one. It would have been nice if something new or unexpected turned up in these unusual situations: Not many men are 'forced' to cum several times in a row.

There are other possibilities not explored. Obviously emotional input is not needed, what the implication? Self stimulation would seem to be possible. Have the computer monitor things and administer X orgasms. He goes with her, but increasingly comes home to find her hooked to the machine.

At the technical scientific level, orgasm and ejaculation are not the same, and one can occur without the other. So you missed out on one obvious scenario, 'dry' coming, no ejaculate (nothing left).

The characters aren't bad as 'faculty types', judging by the ones I've known, but you didn't exert yourself to give any truly individual character; they're pretty generic. They lack interesting faults or flaws, as in real life becomes evident with these cool and collected types.

All this said, I don't think one should 'lean' on this story too hard. It's smooth and quick, as you said, follows from a single idea and impulse, more or less dashed off (though reasonably proofed) with reasonable writing competence.

 

[Penelope Street]

The jiggling while she's giggling every dozen paragraphs or so rubbed me the wrong way too, but not in a way that lessened the story. I thought this added a bit of dimension, albeit in a negative way, to the narrator. As both characters are, I think, I bit on the thin side, I view this as a plus.

As for adding dimension to Christina, I really wanted to know a little more about her past. Ok- I wanted to know a lot more. I don't think there's anything wrong with a sexually aggressive woman, but if she's that attractive and forward, why doesn't she have a partner? Really, if she just wanted an ordinary relationship, I think she could have found one long ago. Did she have one and it not work out? Given the way she behaved, I thought she just wanted sex. I expected she had been boffing undergrads all spring, but was forced to trade down to staff with all the young hunks gone for the summer.

I believe the same things that make for any good fiction make for good erotica, but with an erotic story the characterization is even more important. If I can relate to a character, then I can become involved- perhaps even excited. If I don't care about the characters, why would I care if they have sex- or just coffee?

Even though I know the difference,I may have used sperm as a synonym for semen on occasion. I was rather surprised to learn it is anyone's peeve. So if a man has a vasectomy or is otherwise sterile, is it still called semen?

Take Care,
Penny

P.S.
How long of a story qualifies as too long for Literotica? I know of a couple of single submission pieces over fifty thousand words and I'm sure some of these twenty chapter affairs must run twice that, or more.

 

[drlust]

Point taken...

Hi Penny:

I agree with you that a bit more back story on the characters would have helped. I think that the problem you point to is one result of the "fast write" that this piece was. If I had labored over it more, I'm sure I would have fleshed them both out a bit more. Given what we've been saying about the piece, I'm still puzzling over why it's remained so popular. I've never written anything before that even smacks of Sci-Fi, so I guess now I'll have to go read some of the other stories there. I've been put off by the titles of those that I have looked at because they mostly seemed either highly violent or to involve lots of alien sex. Three-pronged penises just seemed a bit too much for me!

As for semen vs. sperm, speaking as one who has had the snip-snip, it's semen. No sperm any more (thank goodness).

As for the issue of length, I have yet to see a single story posted over five screen loads. I haven't counted the number of words per screen load, but it would be interesting to find out what (if any) the limits were. At the same time, my question about lenth also had to do with the form--I conceive of these submissions (mine anyway) as being short stories, not chapters in a longer work, so I've tried to go for brevity.

Allan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Oh, I've seen a Lit story that I believe was 13 or 17 pages long, can't quite remember. Anyhow, it was more than 10.

I might have used sperm for semen too, on occasion, but I doubt it. Sperm is one of those words I just don't like, like "titties", which is probably why it bothers me. Even so, it's not as bad as "sperms", which I've also seen.

 

[Penelope Street]

Aliens with three pronged penises? Too funny. It always amuses me how males of other species, in both science fiction and fantasy, always have the hots for human women. I suppose it would make for a pretty dull erotic story otherwise, but it still makes me laugh.

I know of one story fifteen pages in length. I think that would be in the fifty thousand word range. The longest I've ever seen was thirty-seven pages, but it has since been removed. My longest is six, fwiw.

I rather like the word sperm. Has a nice sexy ring to it, I think. Of course, so does semen.

As for the higher than expected rating, I have no idea. Considering how few readers bother to vote, I don't put much faith in the score being an accurate reflection of the quality of any given story.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[Black Tulip]

Dr. Lust,

I just read your story and will give you my comments without having read any of the others yet. So please, forgive any redundancy.

First of all, I am a sf/fantasy fan and really like to read stories about new inventions or new sociological premises. Like you said, the story is doing well and I can see why.

It's a good read, there's enough material to go off on your own fantasy, the technology is believable and not too complicated to understand, and the people are easy to identify with.

I do have some buts, however.

Overall I think the story is lacking in suspense. The people are normal, the surroundings are normal, the way they meet is normal. Heck everything is too normal.

If this is sf, I want to feel something's out of the ordinary. I need a hint of something unexpected that may happen or something unusual in otherwise normal circumstances.
While reading that is what distracted me. I kept waiting for the twist, the unexpected turn of events. First I thought she would do something with him on the table, then I thought something would go wrong with him handling the controls. But nothing happened. So I figured there would be some unexpected side-effects or something long-term like an addiction, which you more or less hinted at.

Another thing I noticed was the dialogue. To me the way they talked seemed a bit clinical. I tried to figure out why. Perhaps because there is not much in the way of descriptions as to intonation, facial expressions and such. The only thing that comes close is her laughing that makes her tits jiggle.

Otherwise there is nothing about a raised eyebrow, a smile, blinking your eyes, scratching your head. I missed body signals I think.

Having said all that, I want you to keep in mind these are observations because you asked, not because they were screaming at me.

The word Orgasmatron had me thinking of Barbarella, but I can't remember what the name of the sexual machine in that old film was. All I remember is this scene where Jane Fonda is inside some kind of organ and the whole thing overheats.
I don't know if you're of an age to even know of this film. LOL



I hope my comments are of some use, if not, feel free to use them for kindling a small fire.



Edited:
Damn, I can't believe I forgot to mention this. When he was hit with his first orgasm he felt like it had sneaked up on him or something. On reading that I thought: "Gee, I wouldn't like that at all. That would rob me of the sensations that go with the building of tension." It made me think on what makes the feelings so good. It's like eating a delicious meal, the tasting and chewing is all the fun. Not the feeling of a filled stomach afterwards. That's almost a bit of a let-down because it means the fun is over.
Not sure if this makes sense.

 

[drlust]

The Twist

Hi:

The interesting thing (for me, anyway) about this story is that I didn't sit down to write a sci-fi story at all. It just kind of turned out that way. I originally was going to post it under another category, but the Lit. editors wrote back to tell me that it was, in their view, a sci-fi story and that it should be posted under that category, which made sense to me, so I went with it. I think you're right about the twist...that is the thing that is so obviously missing here...whether it is her suddenly using the machinery to engage in some BDSM play, or something a bit more sci-fi-ish (sorry).

And yes, I remember Barbarella (I saw it when it first came out, so there, feel young about yourself), but no, I can't remember the name of that machine.

Allan

 

[Pure]

I think there was a missed opportunity in not having the sessions interact much. She hooks him up; he hooks her up to the machine.

For instance, if there is some abuse (or perceived abuse, misunderstanding) in the first, then that abuser carries out some retaliation in the second. btw dr., i wonder if you saw/read my earlier posting?

 

[drlust]

Apologies and a response

Hi Pure:

First off, an apology for not responding to your first posting. For some reason, I sat down and responded right away to Penny and didn't to you. I'm not sure why. Then I just moved on down the line, responding to the others as they came in and never went back to the beginning of the thread!

In response to your first one, I can say (from long experience!) that this is much the way faculty types talk to one another. Lord knows I've listened to enough of these conversations over the years...not about sex, of course, but about everything else. Okay, maybe a few about sex.

It's interesting to me to read everyone's suggestions about a possible twist in the story, because many of the suggestions revolve around, or hint at, a dominance, revenge, mild pain, etc., kind of twist. I suppose this is suggested by the surroundings of the situation--a lab with someone all wired up, almost like a torture chamber. The reason I find this interesting is that my intention in the story, if I had much intention at all as it flowed quickly from brain to pixels, was to use this laboratory setting to bring together two people who needed love and to do it through the vehicle of something shocking to one and a source of pride for the other. The way I envisioned the woman, she was too much the scientist and proud of her accomplishments to use the orgasmatron for something other than good. The way I envisioned the man, he was just a "normal" (if we can ever call faculty members normal, and of this I'm dubious) guy who (a) found himself in a situation he never expected and (b) found love to boot.

Now, I agree with several of the participants in this discussion that for the love part of the story to work I would need to include a fair amount of additional back story, otherwise it just seems to happen without much foundation. This was the kind of feedback I was especially hoping to get. Having thought about this in relation to some of my other stories, I went back and re-read them and I think that the closest I came was in the one called "Back to School Night." In that story I laid lots of foundation for the male character and at least some for the female character. Otherwise, as I re-read my stories, I found that I've probably assumed too much about the emotional lives of my characters.

Allan