Story Discussion Circle 9/10: A Love Letter for Jean Martel

[LingerieRobot]

Okay, so it's actually the 11th, but it was supposed to be on the 10th and I didn't want to write "Story Discussion Circle 9/11". In any case, here's the story:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=476861

I'm kind of in a hurry today, but here are some quick questions:

-Does the sex work as erotica? Does it feel shoehorned in?

-Obviously the focus of the story is on Jean, but I tried to make the narrator a workable character too. Does it work, or is he too generic?

-I wanted the dialogue to be entertaining but believable. What did you think about it?

-Were you okay with the lack of a traditional ending?

Thanks a lot in advance for taking a look at the story, hope you like it.

 

[PacoFear]

Hiya L'Bot,

Congrats, and thanks, for braving the Story Discussion Circle. I hope you get some valuable commentary here. For whatever they're worth, my thoughts are below.

Real. Really Real.
I thought your recollected scenes were wonderful. They’re gritty, real, and show a deft hand with descriptive detail. You’ve done a marvelous job of conveying Jean’s personality and I feel like I could spot her on the street if she walked by. I’d invite her for a drink and chat – you make her seem quite interesting. The interactions between the narrator and Jean, sexual and non, have the satisfying, if sometimes off-putting gravity of real life. At times, they’re funny as hell too. The exchange about Ass Lovers’ Digest was a fricking hoot. You also treat/inflict upon us the wicked juxtaposition of the line “I had a great time. Vomit and all.” followed swiftly by the first time they have sex. For this, I give you points to its realism score, but subtract double points to its romance and eroticism scores.

Style by the buckets
I thought this thing was downright artful at points. Among my favorites:
“Jean was always more attracted than me to dualities, high and low jammed together and violently mating. Maybe that was why she liked me – half man and half child, half determined and half cowardly.”

Large Scope Issues
FYI - by ‘large scope issues’ I mean structural ones, not that the issues are large in scope.

Not a fan of the intro
I’d ditch the narrative intro. It amounts to a large chunk of ‘telling.’ The low point of this story for me was the end of the intro where you go to the trouble of telling us that you doubt text can do Jean’s story justice but you’re going to try. For you, this may be a poignant statement, but for the reader it’s distancing in a negative way. Here’s what it implied on my read, “I’ll try to convey the depth of my feelings for Jean but, alas, you, dear reader, can’t really understand just how deeply she touched me. Sorry, there’s not much I can do about that. Anyway, keep reading please because I need to get this off my chest.”

Too much commentary
In my opinion, the parentheticals, indeed most of the asides, need to go. Nerk left you a lengthy and thoughtful feedback on this already and I suspect this will be the focus of much discussion so I won’t belabor the point other than to add what I think is a more subtle footnote: your semi-regular use of “this” and “that” as articles during the narrative portions works a separating effect on the reader that is similar to your commentaries. Examples:

“Jane had that coy smile,…”

“…I licked the taste of that bitter coffee to get to the sweetness underneath…”

“…after she came she lay on that kitchen table,…”

In the above examples, I think it would maintain a reader’s immersion if you replaced them with, respectively, “a”, no article at all, and “the.” As it’s written now, you’re referring to the notions of these things in your own head rather than the actual things that exist in the story. Follow? Incidentally, don’t feel bad, two of my favorite Lit writing chums (folks more skilled than me) have the same affectation and it’s on our negotiated list of things to fix when I edit for them.

Organization
On my read, the story felt disjointed. Any time there are a series of vignettes framed by commentary from a removed narrator there’s going to be this risk.

On my second read, I think most of my disorientation was due to your decision to go off-timeline to share a sex scene that followed as a consequence of the bookstore trip. I understand that there was a cause and effect relationship you wanted to exploit there. I also suspect that, because this is Lit, you may have wanted to slip in some early nooky to keep reader interest. I think it was a mistake. The chrono break caused a disconnect for me because this story is clearly not about erotic thrills, it’s about conveying how you feel about Jean. For you to get me to the same place you are, to have me vicariously fall in love with Jean, you need to build that relationship, by taking my hand and walking me through it as your feelings deepen. Fast forwarding for the nooky broke that connection for me.

Jean losing her virginity
I don’t think this scene contributed to Jean’s story and it reads awkwardly, stemming mostly from an unavoidable POV issue. An inherent limitation of narrating from first person POV is that describing events your narrator weren’t present for is going to be awkward. I get the feeling you sensed this on some level and it’s what motivated the little narrative hand-waving preface about hearsay.

I’d either ditch this scene altogether or re-write it so that Jean is recounting the story in dialogue. The latter might make for a heartfelt moment, with her divulging something very personal in a revealing exchange. Basically, it would become a two-fer. You get Jean’s story out and you get the tenderness surrounding her act of sharing it with the narrator.

Small Scope Issues, i.e., Nitpickies
First sentence
I was thrown off by your first sentence. My understanding of Coke bottle glasses is that they’re any glasses whose prescription is thick enough that they literally look like the bottom of the classic Coke bottle when you look through them. That is, ‘Coke bottles glasses’ aren’t a style of glasses, they’re just a descriptive shorthand for a very thick prescription. I doubt severe myopia has ever been in style so your first sentence doesn’t make sense.

Facial expressions
A common bad habit for writers is resorting to the same facial expression for a character too often. By far the most frequent is ‘smiling.’ Amateur authors’ characters ‘smile’ a lot. (BTW - It's a constant struggle in my own writing, if there was a Smiler’s Anyonymous I’d be the damn treasurer ). If you look back at your story, the majority of times that you mention Jean’s facial expression she’s ‘smiling.’ People’s faces make other expressions and they use other body language to convey their emotions. In your story Jean should too.

Suggested tweak to your ending
Simply put, your closer is touching but depressing when I don't think it has to be. There’s nothing wrong with a sad closing per se, but it’s going to leave a bitter taste in your readers’ mouths. Moreover, as far as self-gratification goes, this story is a mixed bag erotically speaking so your readers are not likely to have successfully *insert coy euphemism here*. So you’re kind of 0/2 on what I think are the two primary rewards readers seek out here at semi-intellectual_smut.com.

To sweeten your closer up without doing real violence to the content or tone of your story, I have a gentle suggestion on an adjustment that would go as follows:

Ditch the last paragraph entirely. Move the two well-written paragraphs recounting the tchotchke Jean left behind (Tori Amos CD’s, etc.) to the end. These paragraphs felt out of place where they were to me anyway. Tweak what would now be the last sentence of your story to read as follows:

“I still hope that the Jean I knew will come back for them.”

IMHO, this would give your piece a sentimentality similar to the one you were looking for but with a slightly uplifting twist, a glimmer of hope for both Jean and you. YMMV.

Conclusion
This story was impressive overall and I think it was a gutsy and well-crafted post. The autobiographical stuff I’ve put up here on Lit was wrapped in friendly fluff and passed off as fiction. Hats off to you for peeling off a bit of yourself and heaving it out there.

-PF

 

[nerk]

Okay, so it's actually the 11th, but it was supposed to be on the 10th and I didn't want to write "Story Discussion Circle 9/11". In any case, here's the story:

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=476861

I'm kind of in a hurry today, but here are some quick questions:

-Does the sex work as erotica? Does it feel shoehorned in?

-Obviously the focus of the story is on Jean, but I tried to make the narrator a workable character too. Does it work, or is he too generic?

-I wanted the dialogue to be entertaining but believable. What did you think about it?

-Were you okay with the lack of a traditional ending?

Thanks a lot in advance for taking a look at the story, hope you like it.

I've somehow read this before and commented on it a bit at the end, but I figure I should weigh in on this thread, at least to answer your questions:

yes, the sex works as erotica. If you mean that it caught my imagination and molested it. As far as shoehorning it in, this story is so self-aware as a semi-random selection of scenes from your memory (or your narrator's memory) that everything is selected. You can't read the story without being aware of the writer's choices. Do I believe that this writer would write about sex with this girl he is missing that he had great sex with? Yes, I do.

He is generic, but not unbelievably. Jean is the star of the film. He's the cinematographer, so we don't really see much of him. He comes across as a guy who met this really incredible girl and is dealing with his feelings for her. We don't know that much about him, except as he relates to her, but I don't think we need to.

Dialogue, largely good. I never doubted it.

I think you have a traditional ending, if there is a traditional ending for this kind of story. You sort of reach the (chronological) end of the affair, have the last encounter, when you realize the girl you loved is gone, and then a little post-game commentary. I shouldn't be writing this at the same time I'm watching football. But as far as endings go, this one works. It is very much of a piece with the rest of the story. Who could ask for more?

Oh, and while Paco is the most brilliantly insightful and thorough commentator around, even he gets one wrong sometimes. I agree with his assessment that you're blowing it as a writer of smut by not having the story end with "splort" in some form or another, but I think all that pesky stuff about books and icky bathrooms has already lost the stroke-story readers. I don't think you're writing for mass wanking appeal. You're writing a romantic memoir with a lot of sex in it. I don't think you want to sweeten up the ending. I think the whole story anticipates the sense of loss that you deliver there.

In hindsight, Paco's probably right, but since I typed all that out, I'm leaving it. Take that, Backspace button!

Thanks for a really top quality story, LingerieRobot

 

[PacoFear]

Oh, and while Paco is the most brilliantly insightful and thorough commentator around, even he gets one wrong sometimes.
...
In hindsight, Paco's probably right, but since I typed all that out, I'm leaving it. Take that, Backspace button!

Aw hell nerk, how am I supposed to argue with you if you do it for me? Let's both twiddle our thumbs a bit and wait for someone more brilliant and more insightful to come along. They should arrive shortly. Oh thank heaven, here comes a short yellow bus headed this way.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi LR,

Thanks for sharing your story with us. I really liked it.

Does the sex work as erotica? Does it feel shoehorned in?
The explicit scenes do not feel shoehorned in, but I didn't find them arousing either. I'd have enjoyed this story more with less sex, but I understand (or at least I think I do) why there's so much of it.

Obviously the focus of the story is on Jean, but I tried to make the narrator a workable character too. Does it work, or is he too generic?
Your narrator is a generic heartbroken fool who needs to move on, but that's ok since most of us have at some point been generic heartbroken fools who needed to move on, so it's easy to relate.

I wanted the dialogue to be entertaining but believable. What did you think about it?
I found your dialogue, and the narrator's overall voice, superb. To me, their conversations were a lot sexier than the actual sex.

Were you okay with the lack of a traditional ending?
It's entirely appropriate, though I'm curious what you intended to accomplish by so heavily foreshadowing this ending?

I really didn't care about the sex. I wanted to know why they got together and why they broke up, even though the narrator intentionally avoids the subject. That's why I found this excerpt ever so appropriate:

I started writing this because I wanted to capture Jean Martel in writing. I wanted to trap my experience with her, like a bug pressed between an entomologist's pages, so that other people could see why I loved her. But in the end I've just created pornography.

His yarn does end up being pretty much pornography, and it sure feels like the narrator wanted more- both in the tale he tells and in the story behind the story. I hope that's what you were after. If so, great job.

Take Care,
Penny


P.S.

Not a fan of the intro
I’d ditch the narrative intro. It amounts to a large chunk of ‘telling.’

I didn't like it at first either, but it grew on me in a hurry. I could picture Jean doing many of the things he mentions, so it blurs the line between showing and telling. Even if you see fit to label all of it exposition, and some of it certainly is, I think it's at least really good exposition.

Organization
On my read, the story felt disjointed.

I agree. But should it feel disjointed?

Jean losing her virginity
I don’t think this scene contributed to Jean’s story and it reads awkwardly, stemming mostly from an unavoidable POV issue. An inherent limitation of narrating from first person POV is that describing events your narrator weren’t present for is going to be awkward. I get the feeling you sensed this on some level and it’s what motivated the little narrative hand-waving preface about hearsay.

I’d either ditch this scene altogether or re-write it so that Jean is recounting the story in dialogue.

I agree. This moment should either get its due or be removed.

I don't think you're writing for mass wanking appeal. You're writing a romantic memoir with a lot of sex in it. I don't think you want to sweeten up the ending. I think the whole story anticipates the sense of loss that you deliver there.

I'm with you here. The unhappy conclusion is apparent from the beginning, so it's not like anyone should have read on expecting anything else.

Let's both twiddle our thumbs a bit and wait for someone more brilliant and more insightful to come along. They should arrive shortly. Oh thank heaven, here comes a short yellow bus headed this way.

I was liking this until I got to the short yellow bus part!

 

[Amontillado]

Loved your story; before I get to my critique I thought I'd address an aspect of it that I was particularly fond of, which PF wasn't.

I’d ditch the narrative intro. It amounts to a large chunk of ‘telling.’

I disagree. Not that it isn't a large chunk of 'telling,' for it is; I disagree that it should be ditched because of that.

The reason is that it isn't 'telling' in the traditional sense, in which writers err by telling the reader something when they should be showing it to them. This is because you've broken away from a traditional narrative style into something akin the intro in A Tale of Two Cities(1), and thus it should be evaluated based on whether it succeeds at being what it is, rather than whether it follows the rules or not.

Every rule has an exception, and, for me at least, your introduction piqued my interest and effectively showed me something that it couldn't have in a narrative description of scenes unfolding. It showed me that your story is about who Jean Martel is; it creates a certain amount of conflict due to her conflicting characteristics; it builds tension, because it looks like the narrator is setting something up, and I'm wondering what that is; and it poses an interesting question.

Does the narrator know who Jean Martel is?

The low point of this story for me was the end of the intro where you go to the trouble of telling us that you doubt text can do Jean’s story justice but you’re going to try.

I do agree with PF here(2). I mention this because, although I liked your intro, I don't think a writer can ever get away with going to that place where he's self-consciously wondering whether his words can effectively render some aspect of experience. Every time I see it, I think, "Well, you had damn well better try, or this is going to be one short story."

That said, since the conflict in your story is so much about who Jean Martel is, I think it's okay to skirt that place, so long as you don't get too close. For instance:

"You see my dilemma? I want to capture all of Jean Martel, but how do you fit a person into a block of text without slicing them to pieces? I can list everything I know about her, but all this gets me is a list of symptoms with no sign of the disease."

That I was fine with. It's the stuff that comes after that gets sketchy; especially the mention of the English teacher.

On to your questions.

-Does the sex work as erotica? Does it feel shoehorned in?

It's difficult, or subject limiting, anyway, to write sex that advances plot. Obviously, some of the greatest erotica authors manage this, but at the same time, some of the greatest erotica authors don't.

In your story, you've made the conflict about who Jean Martel is, so there is some tension there. What does the sex reveal about her? Does the protagonist 'get' her?

I think your sex worked, and to me, didn't feel shoehorned. I liked the out-of-chronological-sequence structure as well, as it reinforced the abstract arc of the story. It isn't about whether he gets the girl or not, but why he doesn't.

-Obviously the focus of the story is on Jean, but I tried to make the narrator a workable character too. Does it work, or is he too generic?

That was well-executed. You articulated him enough that he didn't come off as generic, while leaving him a blank enough slate that the focus remained on Jean's identity.

-I wanted the dialogue to be entertaining but believable. What did you think about it?

Your dialog is, by itself, a good reason to read your story.

-Were you okay with the lack of a traditional ending?

Yes. "At the time I thought I reacted well. I'm not sure now." That's the real money line, which shows that the protagonist changed as a result of what he experienced, and it works best if he and Jean don't live happily ever after.


-Amontillado


1. I know, comparing LingerieRobot with Dickens may seem absurd, but if you think about it, Dickens would actually be a pretty good Lit name

2. PF is right about the coke-bottle glasses too. Google it and look at the images you get.

 

[Amontillado]

I wanted to know why they got together and why they broke up, even though the narrator intentionally avoids the subject.

What I got out of the story was that they broke up because the protagonist wasn't able to see through Jean's facade and come to know who she really was. I assume the fights that he alludes to but doesn't describe are driven by this failure to connect.

It seemed to me that they got together because he did connect with who she was trying to be, or thought she was at that time in her life. The scenes in the subway car and the shady bookstore covered that adequately, I think, for a short story.

Based on the introduction, I was more interested in what the story had to say about who Jean was, since that was what the narrator was focused on, and what the relationship hinged on. I don't know that the sex scenes did a whole lot to advance that aspect of the story, but there was the possibility that they might expose something about Jean, other than, ahem; and hey, it's sex. At least there was some justification for it.

-Amontillado

 

[Penelope Street]

I read it again and liked it again.

Paco mentioned the realism and I think the disjointed narrative and ignoring of literary convention only add to the feeling that this story really happened.

What I got out of it is that their relationship was actually about lust, which is pretty much the norm at their age, and the narrator has yet to figure that out, let alone deal with it, years later.

I don't think coke-bottle glasses have ever been in style either- but what if the narrator likes them because Jean wore them and thus thinks they're now in style?

 

[Amontillado]

What I got out of it is that their relationship was actually about lust, which is pretty much the norm at their age, and the narrator has yet to figure that out, let alone deal with it, years later.

Yeah; I tend to assume, "Okay, this is erotica, so there's got to be sex in it," and focus on other issues, but his attention to the subject is revealing, if you look at it that way.

But I think LBot left enough unsaid that the story's somewhat ambiguous--which I like. Whether he succeeded in capturing Jean I can't say, obviously, but he did pose an interesting character with some interesting issues. Why did she choose that type of personality to seek validation? Was she really being as inauthentic as she thought?

I don't think coke-bottle glasses have ever been in style either- but what if the narrator likes them because Jean wore them and thus thinks they're now in style?

Can you imagine people straining their eyes that way, for the sake of fashion? Oh my goodness...


-Amontillado

 

[PacoFear]

First off, let me clear something up that I'm terribly embarrassed about:

Let's both twiddle our thumbs a bit and wait for someone more brilliant and more insightful to come along. They should arrive shortly. Oh thank heaven, here comes a short yellow bus headed this way.

I was liking this until I got to the short yellow bus part!

Oh jeez. I didn't mean to imply that SDC participants should be riding around on a short yellow bus. The joke was supposed to be at my own expense (okay maybe a little at nerk's expense too but he can take it) and it was supposed to suggest that he and I would be upstaged in terms of insight by a group of imaginary short bus occupants who were due to arrive any minute. You guys aren't on that bus. It was a failed attempt at clever self-deprecation, not me being nasty. I promise. I you guys. Group hug?

Okay, let's get back to L'bot's nifty story:

On my [first] read, the story felt disjointed. On my second read, I think most of my disorientation was due to your decision to go off-timeline to share a sex scene that followed as a consequence of the bookstore trip.

I agree. But should it feel disjointed?

This is what I like about reading with y'all. I went back and read Love Letter over a third time and I'm willing to concede on this point. I think L'bot did such a marvelous job of painting Jean that I was attracted to her. I brought my own agenda to the story. I wanted a vicarious romance with this clever, quirky, beautiful girl and when I didn't get it, it put me off. On reflection, this story is about the narrator's relationship to Jean, not mine. Hat's off to you, L'bot, for making me swoon!

What I got out of the story was that they broke up because the protagonist wasn't able to see through Jean's facade and come to know who she really was. I assume the fights that he alludes to but doesn't describe are driven by this failure to connect.

It seemed to me that they got together because he did connect with who she was trying to be, or thought she was at that time in her life.

What I got out of it is that their relationship was actually about lust, which is pretty much the norm at their age, and the narrator has yet to figure that out, let alone deal with it, years later.

Funny, for me this was a coming-of-age story (Jean's) being told from an outside perspective. The young Jean is experimenting with identities the way folks in their twenties often do. She's doing the caterpillar-to-butterfly thing. This was reinforced for me by L'bot's line towards the end:

I wanted to trap my experience with her, like a bug pressed between an entomologist's pages, so that other people could see why I loved her.

L'bot's narrator loved Jean-the-quirky-caterpillar. He's less interested in the plain but pretty butterfly and, sadly, vice versa.

Again, well done L'bot!

-PF

 

[Penelope Street]

Can you imagine people straining their eyes that way, for the sake of fashion? Oh my goodness...

Initially, no, but then can you imagine people mutilating their feet to the point they can barely walk for the sake of fashion?

I think LBot left enough unsaid that the story's somewhat ambiguous--which I like. Whether he succeeded in capturing Jean I can't say, obviously, but he did pose an interesting character with some interesting issues. Why did she choose that type of personality to seek validation? Was she really being as inauthentic as she thought?

I like the ambiguity too since this narrator clearly doesn't have all the answers.

Funny, for me this was a coming-of-age story (Jean's) being told from an outside perspective. The young Jean is experimenting with identities the way folks in their twenties often do. She's doing the caterpillar-to-butterfly thing.

I also considered that at some point she simply grew up and he didn't.

Oh jeez. I didn't mean to imply that SDC participants should be riding around on a short yellow bus.

LOL. Riding about in one might not be so bad, but actually resembling one? P.S. I knew you didn't mean to imply anything like that, I just thought it an amusing interpretation.

 

[LingerieRobot]

Hey guys, thanks for all the critiques. There's a lot of stuff in here that I'll keep in mind for my future writing, and possibly a revised version of this story. (Mainly I'm just amazed that someone read this three times.) All your feedback is much appreciated.

 

[CeliaisAliena]

Good sex, but better as a bittersweet rom-com

Reading this, I felt a thrill of recognition as we first meet Jean, esp. in her dazzling whimsy about pairing Celine and smut! This kind of opening really individuates the character, and makes you feel that, come hell or high water, you're going to read something different.

There are several shocks of insight and freshness of observation like that in the story, but I think I find them all in the dialogue.

I agree with the above that the deflowering reminiscence doesn't really 'work' as is-- at least, we should hear it from the horse's mouth. I would consider reflecting, tho, on why/if the story really needs it at all. It's a piece of intimate sharing, yes; but everyone pretty much tells that kind of story, and it doesn't really contribute to Jean's uniqueness or anything unique about the relationship.

The sex scenes are, as is, quite hot, *but*-- I really felt myself reading past them. This gets to the ontological question: should it really be, as the narrator suggests, just porn? I mean, I just don't buy that it's the sex memories he really wants to tell us about; I don't even think they really *are* what he's told us, if you see what I mean.

I mean no slight against erotica whatsoever! but: I really do find myself wanting/needing more clarity about the relationship itself. In the end, I feel what I learn is too generic for her. Even assuming that, at bottom, she's the "normal" girl she wants to be and her quirks were a kind of hipster affectation, I feel that the *real* Jean is getting squeezed between the narrator's mooniness and (haha) 'too much action not enough talk'!

I don't have a problem with the narrator being hung up about her; but I do feel his actions/words in the story are maybe *too* 'princely'. He comes close at one point, I think, to upbraiding himself for being too agreeable (I'm thinking when he tries to reassure her at the window when it's snowing). Could he use a little edge? I almost want him to show his elbows a bit; can we see just a smidgeon of what their fights were like? I can imagine Jean might be mean with a put-down too.

I also wonder whether more context would help at their final meeting. if she's in business casual, what is he doing? wearing the Junkfood tee he slept in? Has she gone bourgeois? is she a sell-out? Did she leave him because she rationalized he was going nowhere? But maybe she's not much of a professional herself?

Ah, ambiguity! Ok, we don't want the narrator to have some reverse-Avril Lavigne freakout because his gf's gone prep! And it's not like we can say how much the relationship had going besides snarky humor and sexual compatibility. --I should say, btw, is it very telling that he never read the Celine or opened the ass mag?! Maybe we should take that for a red flag!

But all these kind of Woody Allen walks on the bridge moments are so strongly delivered, it really makes one hunger to linger in these lovers' company and learn more about them. The structure of the story is handled adroitly, but if the story is ever expanded then I would love to see more non-sexual companionship and shared larks between the two!