Story Discussion: Black Tulip, 2-14-05, "Dear Hunting"

Black Tulip

Not so delicate flower
Joined
Oct 12, 2003
Posts
5,945
OLD VERSION!!!
For the new version go here: First half and, if you want to, here: Second half


This one should be easy since I have only one major question:

Is it worth submitting? :rolleyes:

I have serious doubts about this one. Possibly because I set out to write a historically believable story, not necessarily smut.

But, suppose you answered in the positive, I have some other questions I will post after the story itself. It's 4259 words long, so I think you should be able to plow through the whole of it. :D

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Dear Hunting

Dawn painted the sky a faint pink tinged with orange and Lars sniffed the air. He felt fairly sure it would snow later this day, but for now the sky lighted slowly up to a pearly white with the sun a pale disc on the horizon. Spring was coming late this year, he thought as he closed the flap of the tent behind him. It was nearly time to celebrate Ostara but there was no sign yet of the ice retreating from the summer plains.

At the sound of boots crunching on the frozen snow he turned his head and watched his hunting partners emerge from their own tents. Ivor, his bow across his shoulder, was still tying his pants as he stepped outside with a big grin on his broad face. No doubt he had started the day with greeting his woman in a proper way. Lars sighed and gazed at Knut. The smaller man had no woman of his own. Like Lars he had his own tent, ready to bring in a mate if they could find one, but so far they'd had no such luck.

Due to the ice still covering the plains, there hadn't been any foraging by the women. Which meant there was no chance to catch a girl from another clan either. So the night before Lars had told his friends of his plan. He wanted to trek across the ice field to find the tents of another tribe so he and Knut could go girl hunting instead of reindeer. There was meat enough for the clan so their contribution could be missed for a few days.

His persuasive, urgent words had easily incited Knut to go along. He was just as tired of using his hands as Lars was. And Ivor was generous enough to wish his friends a mate of their own. All he asked was that they would be back for the festivities of Spring Equinox, the honoring of Ostara as the source of all life. He hoped the goddess would bless him and his mate with young if they coupled during the celebration. Lars understood all too well. Ivor had no next of kin left since his sire had been gutted by a sabretooth last summer.

Lars nodded to both men and led the way out of the small circle of tents that housed their clan. The harsh long winter had dwindled their numbers till there were only ten tents left. No more than seven hunters besides the three of them. It was too little to survive for long. Proper hunting required at least ten men so any accident would be fatal for all the clan. He and Knut needed to contribute to a new generation of hunters.

Musing on the joys of having a mate of his own, Lars set out on a southern course. As he had explained to the others, he expected to find a place where the ice had retreated far enough to draw out the girls from another tribe to search for roots and eggs. Besides, the familiar clans to the west and the east were probably just as whittled down as their own.

After a while Ivor took over and lead the way, making a path for the others across the vast expanse of snow-covered ice. The pale light of the sun did nothing to warm the day and the slippery patches of green or black ice were treacherous going. Just as the snow was hazardous for covering rents in the ice. More than one man had disappeared down such a gash to be captured inside the glacier forever.

By midday the three of them were squinting at the sky. The yellow disc was disappearing behind a curtain of grey, causing a weird light that seemed to illuminate the landscape.

"What'll we do? It will be snowing shortly." Ivor looked at the others, his pale eyebrows raised in question.

Knut shrugged. "I say we go on till it starts. We can have a shelter up in a few counts."

Lars nodded. "I agree. Let's get as far as possible." He grinned suddenly, his blue eyes sparkling. "The sooner we catch some pussy the better."

His friends laughed with him and the three of them continued south till the snow started falling. Most of it had passed them overhead so it was already close to sundown when they halted next to a large snow dune. It was a matter of moments to dig out a space big enough for the three of them and seal it off with a few hides. Making sure the wind would stay out was the most work. While Lars and Ivor took care of it, the stout but smaller Knut proceeded to make fire.

As darkness fell, the three of them sat huddled around the flames of their tiny fire, their hands around a horn of fermented berry juice and their bellies filled with strips of meat. The falling snow had muffled all sounds and there was nothing to hear except the occasional crackle of the fire. Staring at the dancing sparks, Lars finally voiced the question that had been eating away at him ever since Ivor had managed to catch the gentle Helga.

"What is it like? To feel a woman's body I mean."

Ivor cleared his throat. "I guess I should tell you what I know, before you catch your own mates. I know I could have done with some advice." He sighed. "Too bad your fathers were swept away in the avalanche."

Knut mumbled his assent and Lars nodded too.

"Well, I suppose you two have seen a woman's body." Ivor snickered. "In fact, I know you have. I was there with you when we spied on our girls. But you haven't touched, have you?"

For a moment his face turned from serious to anxious. Looking was perhaps frowned upon, but touching was absolutely forbidden. No man or woman should join their flesh with the members of their own clan. The punishment for that was death, immediately. So even touching was looked upon as a severe crime, one Ivor would have to deal with no matter his personal relationship with the perpetrator.

"Do I look like an idiot?" Lars snorted in disgust that Ivor even asked such a question.

Knut popped his knuckles. "I won't deny I've thought about it - once - but no. I love life too much."

"Good." Ivor shifted on his pelt. "Now, I know I'm not an experienced father, but I'll tell you what I know. That should make it better for you two."

He picked up a piece of charred wood and sketched the outline of a body in the snow, indicating breasts and nipples with a few simple lines and dots.

"I like to touch and taste Helga's breasts. And when I do, these", he pointed at the dots on the sketchy breasts "get all hard and big and she starts moaning. She likes it too."

Lars felt his body reacting to Ivor's words. The thought of touching a woman's breasts was exciting and his cock lifted its head.

"I found out that it is wise to make sure Helga likes what I do to her body. The secret place between her legs gets all wet and hot then." Ivor licked his lips and one hand found its way toward his crotch, covering the growing bulge. "I usually feel with my fingers how wet she is and she likes me playing between her legs for a bit. Sometimes she even cries out just from my fingers going in and out of her slit. If she is very wet it's easier to slide into her. It feels better too."

Lars swallowed and closed his eyes for a moment as his hand found his stiffening rod and pulled it out of his leathers. He stroked his hot flesh as he listened to Ivor's voice telling them how soft and slippery and hot a woman feels when you plunge into her body. The sounds around him made it clear both Ivor and Knut were pleasuring themselves as well. He opened his eyes again and looked at his friends. For a moment it was just like old times, the three of them jerking off, comparing sizes and fantasies.

It wasn't like old times though. With a jolt of jealousy he looked at Ivor. He could stick his long and skinny thing inside Helga any time he wanted. The sudden image that thought provoked made Lars pump a bit faster and he heard himself moaning a bit.

"Have you ever done anything else to her?" The breathless question came from Knut. He was the smallest of the three friends, but his body was stocky and his cock matched the rest of him. Not very long but sturdy and right now the head was swollen and purple-red as Knut handled it with firm movements.

Lars watched Ivor grin as he stretched the skin of his long pole. It looked as if Knut's question had called up a pleasant memory and it took a nudge from him to bring Ivor back to answering him.

"Apart from kissing and feeling her breasts? And fingering her pussy? Well ... once I licked her there too."

Knut nearly choked. "You mean ... between her legs? What does that taste like? Can you smell a pussy?"

Ivor chuckled and let his hand run back and forth across his cock with slow deliberate movements, his thumb touching the tip and smearing the pre-cum over the entire length.

"Oh yes, it smells great and the taste. I tell you, it's like savory honey. Too bad Helga is not very fond of it. You'll like it though. I'm sure you will. I can show you how to do it, if we catch some girls for you."

Yeah right, Lars thought. I bet you wouldn't mind showing us, but I think I can find my own way to some pussy. The image of Ivor licking Helga between her legs was a powerful one however, and before long his seed spurted in the snow, closely followed by Ivor's and Knut's. Soon after they all wrapped themselves in pelts and Knut and Ivor closed their eyes while Lars took first watch.

Next morning they had to dig themselves out of a fresh pile of snow. Not too deep but enough to take some effort. It would make the going a bit easier since the new layer would provide more grip for their boots, but it would also ask for more care in choosing a path across the cracks and splits in the glacier.

The sky was that peculiar shade of grey that comes with more snow in the air and the white expanse gave off an uncanny light, reflecting against the underside of the clouds. If they were lucky they would find the first traces of another tribe this day. Lars sighed. After the story telling by Ivor last night he couldn't wait to find his own woman. Dreaming with his eyes open, he followed his friends across the snow, ever going south.

By midmorning they saw the first signs that the ice was receding and by the end of the day they could make their camp at the edge of the glacier. The snow that had been threatening them that morning was left behind on the ice. The plain before them was covered with young grasses and the few low bushes were sprouting new leaves. Lars studied the land with concentration, trying to find the best spot for their hunting. There were no smoke traces to indicate any clan in the vicinity but the plain looked inviting enough for foraging. He guessed there were loads of roots to find as well as eggs from the numerous birds he could hear. Even small game would be plentiful here. He nodded in satisfaction, convinced his plan would work out well.

"Shush." Lars motioned to his friends to keep their heads down.

The sun was almost at its highest point and they had finally found traces of foraging. The shrubs to their left concealed some bird or other; they could hear its warning call as the leaves rustled with the passage of a human body. Lars licked his lips as he kept his eyes on the shrubs. By sheer luck they had seen the girl enter without her noticing the three men concealed by the grasses and bushes on the burgeoning plain.

He looked back and gestured to Knut and Ivor, wanting them to circle the spot so they could spring on her from three sides. Both of them nodded and Lars waited thirty counts before he jumped up and sprinted towards the spot where the girl had entered the bushes.

Lars felt his heart thumping and his breath came in gasps from the excitement that was building inside him. The girl had looked ripe for the taking. Her reddish-blond hair unbound to indicate she was not yet paired up, she looked healthy and her long legs had called out to him. He pushed the stems of an overgrown lavender bush aside and grinned in anticipation.

"No!" The girl had her back towards Lars and cried out as Knut grabbed her around the waist.

"Yes! No use resisting girl. You're ours now." Knut grinned at her as he tugged at her clothes.

Lars came up behind her and got hold of her arms so Knut could slip off the leather tunic. The smooth pale skin seemed to call out to him and he let his hands slide down her arms to cup her breasts. The globes filled his hands with soft flesh and he squeezed in reflex.

The girl stood paralyzed for a moment, apparently taken aback by the sensations Lars' hands created in her body. She struggled anew however when Knut busied himself with the leather skirt.

"Don't you dare. You'll be punished for this." She tried to kick Knut in his balls.

Ivor chuckled. "Wrong girl. My friends here have every right to catch themselves a woman." Still grinning he got hold of her foot and tugged at it. With a thud she landed on her backside and for a moment she struggled to get her breath back.

Lars still stood behind her and he couldn't see all of her face, but as he knelt down to grab her wrists he buried his nose in the mass of her hair. It smelled of summer flowers and beneath it he felt the warmth of her skin. Knowing he would get his turn at her pussy anyway, he nuzzled her neck and tasted the flesh of her shoulders. He was rewarded with a small shiver running down her spine before she started protesting again.

"You shouldn't. I'm not just anybody. My father is the wise man of our clan. He will come after you."

Lars listened to her low voice and thought he heard more stubbornness than fear. He had never heard of a father getting his daughter back. Who would be so stupid? Daughters were meant to be taken away. That's what men did, bringing new women into the clan. What use was a woman you could not touch?

"No, he won't and you know it. Why do you resist the facts of life?" Lars half-whispered the words to her as his hands sought her breasts again. "You'll like it, us. I know you will."

His fingers grazed her nipples and as Ivor had said, he felt them harden and grow bigger. Encouraged he rubbed his palms over them as he watched Knut. The stocky man had finally worked the leather skirt off and stared at the curls between her legs. Lars saw they were the same reddish-blond as the hair on her head and for a moment he wondered if they would smell of summer flowers too.

Knut got rid of his own leathers as well and sank down on his knees, his hands on the firm white thighs pressing them open. Lars wasn't sure but it looked as if Knut took a deep breath before he touched her. It was exciting to see Knut touching the girl and she struggled a lot less. When he looked up he saw Ivor with an intent look on his face, his hand stroking his flesh that bulged beneath his clothes.

Even though he had offered to show them last night, he knew perfectly well he would not be touching this girl right now. He had his own woman and this one was for either Knut or Lars. It was up to them to decide which one of them would get to keep her and they were the first to fuck her. If there was going to be any sharing, it would be after one of them had claimed her as his.

Lars looked down again as he felt the girl move in a different way. She had stopped kicking at Knut and Lars saw her hips move a bit as the little man felt his way around her nether regions. Her cheeks were flushed and her mouth was a bit open. It looked so inviting; Lars bent down and kissed her lips. The softness was intoxicating and he sucked at her bottom lip, licked the inside and slipped his tongue inside the moist sweetness to explore her mouth.

A bit dizzy from the kiss he looked down into her face and noticed she had green eyes instead of the blue he had expected. She looked up at him from beneath heavy lids, her breathing heavy and her mouth half open as if she wanted to be kissed again. He obliged while his hands fondled her tits, rolling her nipples between his fingers till she moaned softly.

For a moment Lars was afraid he had hurt her, but when he looked up he saw Knut had not been able to wait any longer. His sturdy rod was poised at her entrance and as he watched, Knut rammed himself inside with one heavy push. Ivor had warned them the first time could be difficult because some girls were sealed and it looked as if Knut was determined to get inside no matter what.

The girl screamed and bucked and Lars found himself stroking her face.

"It will be all right. You'll like it soon. I promise."

"It hurts. Can you make him stop? Please?" The green eyes were bright with tears.

He kissed her again and stroked the soft skin of her shoulders. "No, I won't. It's only natural. The hurt will pass. What's your name? I'm Lars and he is Knut." He chuckled as he motioned towards Ivor. "And that wanker is Ivor. He has his own mate."

Lars kept stroking her breasts and kissing her and he saw her face change from hurt to pleasure again. "What's your name?" He pinched her nipples and grinned when she moaned.

"I'm Nyssa." Her voice was a bit breathless and he saw her squirm as Knut pounded away.

The sight excited him and he felt his cock straining against his leathers. A quick look to the side showed him Ivor, rubbing his hard flesh while he stared at Knut moving in and out of Nyssa's pussy. Lars swallowed. He hoped he could restrain himself till it was his turn. To his surprise, it was his turn almost instantly. With a groan Knut threw his head back and shoved himself as deep as he could inside the girl. Apparently the new sensation of a pussy instead of his hand was too much for him to keep going for long. With a deep sigh he rolled away, to lie on his back beside the girl, a blissful smile on his face.

"Will you do it too?" Nyssa looked at him with an uncertain expression in her eyes.

It was clear she had accepted what was happening. She must know as well as they did, it was the way of things. But she looked as if she was not sure it was something to like or welcome. Lars felt confident however, he could make her enjoy it. Apart from what Ivor had told them, he had heard clan members often enough to know most women liked fucking as much as their men.

Lars smiled and tasted her mouth again. He got rid of his coverings and moved between her legs. Then he licked her nipples while his hands moved over her body, feeling her ribs, spanning her middle and landing on the nicely rounded hips. His mouth followed his hands. He could feel tension beneath her warm skin and he used his hands to move her legs wider apart. He looked up at her and finally answered her question.

"Yes, I will. And I will make you like it." He grinned at the dubious look on her face.

He moved his hands on the soft skin from the inside of her legs, his whole attention focussed on her pussy. His first pussy ever and he licked his lips at the slippery warmth that seemed to call to his cock. His fingers explored the soft folds and he found her entrance. He inhaled the heady scent and bent down, his tongue eager to taste her.

Nyssa jumped at his touch and uttered a small sound. She really did taste like honey and Lars felt encouraged by her reaction. He let his tongue glide through her slit till he found a small bump at the top. He licked it and Nyssa made a kind of howling sound. He licked the nub again and again Nyssa reacted. Lars looked up for a moment and saw she had her eyes closed, her head thrown back. He felt a rush of power as he realized he was making her like that. While his tongue flicked the sensitive spot once more, he slid a finger inside her, curious to feel what she was like inside. It was hot and moist and it felt as if her flesh contracted around his digit.

Sprawled between her legs, Lars licked the little nub at the top of Nyssa's slit and moved his finger slowly in and out of her. He felt her clench and unclench several times and her hips bucked against his hand as she let out a whimpering sound and a deep sigh.

"What did you do? That felt so good." Nyssa's voice was a husky whisper.

Lars grinned. "I told you, you'd like it."

Without further talk he grabbed her legs and draped them across his thighs, lined up his cock to her entrance and moved the head up and down a few times, reveling in the feel of her slippery folds on his hot hard flesh.

"Uh, uh, uh." Nyssa's breathing was getting heavier again.

It was all Lars needed and he plunged deep inside her, his cock pushing her walls aside. For a moment he remained without motion, the new feeling nearly overwhelming him. So hot, so tight, by the fathers, this was good. The feeling of her muscles stirred him to activity and he slowly moved out of her till only the head of his cock was still inside. Then he plunged back in and he was rewarded with a cry as Nyssa pushed back against him, wanting to take him in as deep as she could.

Oblivious to Knut and Ivor, Lars found a rhythm of moving in and out of that sweet pussy, concentrating on the sensations of his body and the reactions of hers. His hands moved up to her breasts again and when Nyssa opened her eyes they locked gazes till Lars felt his seed spurt inside her. He saw her eyes widen and she shuddered beneath him, crying out her pleasure as she dug her nails in his shoulders.

Slowly coming back to the world, Lars sighed deeply and rolled off of her. As he looked around his gaze first touched Ivor's than Knut's. They both grinned back at him and Knut nodded.

"Can we go hunting for me as well? After you've recovered?"
Lars laughed out loud. "I'll gladly take Nyssa, if that's what you mean. Are you sure? You were the first to touch her."

Knut shook his head. "Not saying she isn't sweet, but I think I want a girl more my size."

Lars eyed the long legged Nyssa and realized she was almost as tall as he was. He could appreciate Knut's sentiment but more than anything else he was happy with the prospect of having his own pussy at last. As if he laid claim his hand found its way down between her legs and he kissed Nyssa thoroughly.

"Do you have a sister more his size?" Lars tickled her folds as he asked her.

Nyssa tried to push his hand away and giggled. "Do you want me to betray my siblings? What makes you think I will do that?"

"Because you wish them joy and happiness too?" Lars grinned. As he shoved his fingers in her pussy she gasped and moved her hips, making small sounds in the back of her throat.

It took a while before Lars was capable of clear thought again and both Knut and Ivor looked relieved to leave Nyssa covered up again and tied down. Lars was not taking any chances of her sneaking off. But in the secure knowledge he had captured a mate at last, he was more than happy to go dear hunting for his friend.

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Ok, here are my more specific questions:

  • Is it a believable male pov?
    And did I finally manage to stick to one POV? ;)

  • Do you get the right time frame, early stone age?

  • As I said, I concentrated more on creating a feel for the historical contents than on the erotic part. Does it show? Good? Bad?

  • If I it is worth submitting, I think it should be as first time. Do you agree?

Any and all other comments are welcome of course.

:D
 
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This is pretty ambitious, but I don’t know if it works. The main defect for me was the picture it paints of early man as just a step above the cartoon cliché of bashing women on the head with a club and dragging them back to the cave by their hair, while hearts and stars orbit around the unconscious woman’s head. Aside from the fact that these men live in tents and hunt together, the basic club-over-the-head cliché applies. They no sooner jump up and say “Boo!” to Nyssa then she’s on her back with her legs spread having a great time. I don’t think anyone nowadays thinks that it ever happened like that.

The attempt to create an authentic stone-age environment doesn’t work, in my opinion, but then I’m kind of stickler on early man. If this were really old stone age, the men would be Neanderthals, which I don’t think you intended. This seems like late ice-age to me, which is neolithic or new stone age, when people started building their own shelters and making their own clothes (needles didn’t exist in the old stone age, hence no sewn clothes or tents.) Neolithic man was fairly sophisticated. There was trade between wide-spread groups, there was society and status, there was religion, there was art and decoration, there was thebeginning of agriculture. Neolithic man had more in common with American Indians than he did with paleolithic man.

But okay. I don’t want to be a party pooper and say you can’t write this because they didn’t have needles, but the world just doesn’t seem consistent or believable to me. A lot of that has to do with the way they talk, mixing in modern expressions (“That’s great”) and emotions and sensibilities (wanting to make her like it, saying they had a “right” to take her) with this kind of cave-man ignorance of sitting around the fire masturbating while someone tells them what to do with a woman. (Believe me, if they’re hunters and have watched animals, they know full well what to do, and their instincts will supply the rest. No one ever had to tell a man to caress a woman’s breasts.) I could accept the use of the word “pussy”, after all, they had to call it something, but it was their 20th centurey way of talking that grated (“And that wanker is Ivor”).

I was also very surprised to see that these men had 21st century names. Lars, Knut, and Ivor are all modern names. So are Helga and Nyssa. What gives? At the beginning of the story I was sure that Lars was a modern Swede on a bow-hunting trip somewhere.

The other thing that I kept on thinking about was that these are some really funky and smelly human beings. If they’re living on the edge of the ice, no doubt they don’t bathe at all. Just imagine what you’d smell like after six months without a bath wearing the same piece of leather all the time. And then one of them asks the other if you can smell a pussy! Whew! Yeah, from about fifty feet away! I seriously doubt that Helga’s pussy tasted like sweet honey or that Nyssa’s hair smelled like summer and flowers.

So here you have these four filthy people screwing out on the permafrost, and it just turned me off. I thought Nyssa gave in entirely to easily (what was she doing out foraging alone anyhow? It’s like she was out going to the store) and the sex was devoid of heat.

Anyhow, BT, I love the stuff you’ve written in the past, but I think this one just doesn’t make it. They were 21st century people dressed up in skins and given bows and arrows, and the sex was very desultory and void of emotion.

My opinion only, of course.

Best,

---dr.M.
 
Thanks for the honest opinion. My first question was after all if it was worth submitting at all. I already had my own misgivings, hence the question.

I'll see what others have to say first before killing it. Maybe I can still make something of it. Or not. :rolleyes:

Your effort is appreciated.

:D
 
With the flowery opening I was thinking the story would be some syrupy romance. Then Lars started sniffing and I imagined a comedy. The name Lars and the setting reminded me of the old Ringo Starr flick 'Caveman' where Dennis Quiad played Lar. Was that intentional? I did laugh more than a few times while reading, mostly at the spots Dr. M. already mentioned as being, well, ludicrous. But fifty feet, Doc? Even if it's true did you have to say so?

I viewed this tale as a n/c story more than first-time tale; but then guess which character I wanted to identify with? The men seem to be closer to the three stooges in bearskins than anyone I could find sympathetic.

And yeah, the girl gives in far too easily. It's not just what amounts to rape, they're taking her away from everything she's ever known. No sex is that good! Especially not the first time and never with these three goons. "We will make it feel good soon." Pleeease! And she looked like she wanted to be kissed? Ok, I rolled my eyes there.

I also found it hard to believe these three young men deciding to go off on their own. I envision the clan elder as making those decisions. I could see an older man sending three young bucks off on a woman-gathering expedition, maybe with instructions to leave the captives chaste until they return. Now that'd be some conflict, no?

Speaking of conflict, the men find the girl too easily. What's wrong with having them not be so successful and maybe wondering if they should go back? Even a handful of paragraphs might do, just so it doesn't quite seem like they step off the glacier and stub their toe on her. Also, her capture should have been an intense event for her. I didn't see or feel her fear.

Are they Neanderthals or Cro-Magnon? I really don't care. Just get the prose and dialogue a little less modern and I'll suspend my disbelief. It might even be a neat twist if the men were Neanderthal and the girl Cro-Magnon.

I found it odd that the doctor didn't mind "pussy" but disliked the modern proper nouns. Cavemen have to have names too. I don't know if I would have liked it more had the men been called Grig, Uduk, and Snar or Fire Hair, Bent Snout, and Three Teeth.

I liked the use of 'count' as a marker of time, although I think 'beats' might have been just a shade better. More of this sort of thing throughout could really have heightened the mood. Such as for pussy, what was wrong with something like "pit" or even "swamp"? The latter might be especially appropriate considering the aforementioned odor issues.

On that subject, people who live with the smell of body odor every day must become somewhat accustomed to it. Is not Napoleon supposed to have asked Josephine to not bathe prior to his return after a long separation? I suspect a caveman enjoyed the scent of his woman in the same manner, even when she was fifty paces away. That said, the tasting like honey and smelling like flowers stuff is more than laughable. Regardless of whether they found the odors agreeable, I'm sure cavemen enjoyed sex, so I think four filthy bipeds fucking on the tundra can be an arousing scene.

Some of the culture seemed a bit off as well; for instance the punishment for incest. In an age where the clan needs more hunters, I can think of a punishment that men appear to find more frightening than death and yet would not require the sacrifice of an able bodied man. Plus, the only walk a day and a half and find much better land? Hello- how hard are these tents to move?

In spite of all the above misgivings, I was still curious where you were going with this one and read on with some interest. The quality control is high and the descriptions are good. Even when it was over, I found myself imagining what would happen next. I think this piece could easily make a promising beginning to a longer tale.

Developing the characters is imperative, in my opinion, if this story is going to grab the reader. First, one of the cavemen can be a villain, be rough, even callous with the girl, not care that he hurts her. Then one the other cavemen might empathize with her and you've all the conflict you need for an interesting ice-age romp, no?
 
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Oh god, it's even worse than I thought. :eek:

Thanks Penny for taking the trouble of giving advice on how to improve this sorry excuse, if that is possible. LOL

I knew there was something rotten, but I had not yet smelled the dead rat that clearly. :D

I agree with you about the heart beats. Finding the proper words was a particular concern. That's why I went for slit and rod but I'm afraid it's where I ran into real trouble. A bit too ambitious I guess for a foreign langue. And I should have taken more time in thinking before writing.

:rose:

Edited: I don't know the Ringo Starr thing, but I can guess. LOL
 
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Hi BT :kiss:

I have to agree about the part where being hunters, they would know all about nature, from a very young age, and that it would hold little mystery about it. But that doesn't mean to dump that scene, just change the angle - wanking over a fire rather than a playboy with yer mates :D with the emphasis still being that they weren't allowed to mate within their tribe or the neighbouring ones.

Definitely non-consent category.

Dr and Penny covered the most important parts, so I'll just point out a couple of things that jumped out at me.

There are ways that you can slip in details to strengthen the historical background.
Eg. weave a story about what happened to two star-crossed clan lovers who were forbidden to mate, and were banished, and bonus points if you can make it erotic.
Eg. when they see her they assume [according to their customs] she is single because of her hair is loose, but wouldn't there be other differences, like clothing [ok furs], tattoos, jewellry. What about totem's or something?

Besides some plot things you are going to have to overcome - like why was she alone and not surrounded by women as I would think an unmated women would be, how they found her so easily, did they hunt along the way? why she gave in so easily.

But with a bit of work, this could become something fantastic! Don't stop now, you just lost your way a little!

Just a bit of a sidetrack, but maybe one possibility is that she isn't a virgin, and she goes some way to guide them on their first time. Gives them directions or things?

Cheers, WT :rose:
 
Tulip,

Even worse than you thought? Did you miss the part where I still wanted to keep reading? The quality of the pace, flow, and descriptions make your writing an easy read. That I wanted more says much of the potential.

Lots of fine ideas from wishful. I'm with her on not stopping. Culture clash, such as mistaking the hair down meaning the girl is available- what a clever idea! There are so many interesting possibilities. What if she's not a virgin? What if the first female they find isn't quite as attractive as they had hoped? Maybe she is more gorgeous than they ever dreamed, but is already mated, yet her mate is a brute and she hates him- and he comes looking for her after she willingly flees? And yes, furs, bones, tattoos, totems, and worshipping the moon- all could make fine immersion details.

Even after sleeping on it, I still believe this could make a fine story. Maybe even a series. You've so many angles to explore that I'm jealous. There is no way I'd give up on it.
 
I agree with the above. Just because the details were off, doesn't mean that the story's premise and structure are bad.

It reminds me of a few early drafts I've done of historical stuff. You get the basic framework in place, youi know who's going to do what with whom, and then you go back and fill in the details that bring the setting and characters to life, clean up your language and stuff like that.

If you want some details on upper paleolithic life, check out these sites:

http://www.newgenevacenter.org/worl...Culture/01a_Paleolithic-Society+Culture-2.htm

http://radar.ngcsu.edu/~jtwynn/paleolithic.htm

If you want to bring in some primitive religion and things like that, this could be a fascinating and powerful story.

---dr.M.
 
Wishful,
Thank you for the suggestions. They are very helpful. I had been looking into jewelry and stuff from that period, but somehow it never made it into the story. I clearly did not take enough time to let the idea ferment. LOL

Penny,
I honestly missed that it was worth salvaging.
Blame it on the time of year, depressing at best. :rolleyes:

Doc,
I'll check out the links you gave. I definitely need to read up more on the historical background if I want to make this work properly.
I'm not used to heavy reworking a story once it's finished. :cool:
That will be a new one for me.

I for one am very glad the board now offers the possibility to print threads.
Reworking this piece of s*** will require all your input.

But on the bright side: all unwittingly I provide a perfect example of the usefulness of the SDC!

:D
 
This story is not even close to being a piece of shit. If it was, I'd have said, "Yeah, skip it" instead of "Write more!"
Perhaps I want more because it's so much fun to imagine oneself in another time. Sure, the ice age was an era of danger, disease, discomfort, etc, but part of me wants to be in the wood, wearing some critter skins, eating berries as I pick them, just enjoying the sun and not sitting at some desk doing mundane work and wondering about what noise the car is making or if I remembered to mail the check to the power company.

Historical settings are among my favorites. But none of the four characters beckoned for me to come along with them and enjoy the yarn. Know what I mean? One of the questions was about male POV. I'm not quite sure I understand the question well enough to it. Was I meant to experience this tale via Lars?
 
Title still bothers me. It just throws too many spanners, a letter, spelling error…

You've had a good deal of critique on setting, period, realism etc., I'll concentrate on the writing, what works for me, and where I stumble. I'll use a couple of examples of where I think you can tighten the writing style.

In this first paragraph, you're switching between Lars thoughts and describing the scene confronting him as he emerges from his tent. I'd prefer to see his thoughts grouped together, particularly as they are so closely related - more snow, time of the festival approaching - they're linked. Your sky has three colour's, nothing wrong with that except the implication it's lightening during the course of the passage, the passage is too short.

Dawn painted the sky a faint pink tinged with orange and Lars sniffed the air. He felt fairly sure it would snow later this day, but for now the sky lighted slowly up to a pearly white with the sun a pale disc on the horizon. Spring was coming late this year, he thought as he closed the flap of the tent behind him. It was nearly time to celebrate Ostara but there was no sign yet of the ice retreating from the summer plains.

"Dawn painted the sky a faint pink tinged with orange, the sun a pale disc on the horizon. Lars sniffed the air, there's likely to be more snow this day, he thought, nearly time to celebrate Ostara, the Spring Equinox festival, and no sign yet of the snow retreating from the summer plains. He stooped and closed the flap of the tent."

I'd like to see more 'human response' in your characters. For example, almost the first thing I do when I emerge from a tent is to stretch myself, to undo the knots. "He stretched his stiff joints and muscles in the crisp morning air, then stooped to close the tent flap." It adds a human dimension, something readers can immediately relate to, gives a sense of discomfort in the harsh lifestyle.

I think you need to tell readers immediately what 'Ostara' is, otherwise your raising questions before the reader has finished the first paragraph. By adding the 'Spring Equinox' qualifier, you negate the need to mention the late arrival of Spring, it's spelt out by implication.


I find no end of questions over this paragraph. It's indicative of the problems you are creating for yourself by giving too much information and too little explanation, or confusing explanation, within the passage.

Lars nodded to both men and led the way out of the small circle of tents that housed their clan. The harsh long winter had dwindled their numbers till there were only ten tents left. No more than seven hunters besides the three of them. It was too little to survive for long. Proper hunting required at least ten men so any accident would be fatal for all the clan. He and Knut needed to contribute to a new generation of hunters.

"Lars nodded grimly to both men and led the way out of the small circle of tents that housed their clan. The long winter had hit them hard, their numbers dwindling until barely enough to organise a proper hunt. They were dangerously close to being too few to survive. Finding mates for himself and Knut would be no more than a temporary solution, both men needed to sire the next generation of hunters, their own pleasure less important than the needs of the clan."

Removing all references to numbers does nothing to detract from their plight and eliminates readers questions like 'Why do you need ten people for a hunt?', 'Just how many people are in the clan?' Etc…

This pleasure hunt is a serious business; you should reflect that in the writing. The clan is allowing three valued hunters to depart. (In potentially bad weather - I'd personally prefer them to be setting out in fine weather - it's illogical for them to take the risk with snow threatening.) If they don't return, the clan is doomed, you almost want the clan to be watching their departure, wishing them luck, the clan's future depends upon the three men returning, preferably with mates.

There are other matters I think you need to consider, I'm confused as to where they have their camp, is it on a glacier (highly improbable in reality), or the plain? Why are they crossing a glacier, in bad weather with all its inherent risks? Again, it's an example of too much information that serves to confuse (me) and raise credibility questions.

Enough said. The story has great potential and you should not even think of discarding it. I like this notion of the men playing with themselves, whilst Ivor tells them of his wife's body, definitely worth developing, as is the section when they come across the girl, though I'd like to know what she's thinking, she accepts her fate to a large degree, explain why. The part about her Father is irrelevant in my opinion. You've already established the conditions under which girls are hunted and taken.

I think if you take the serious edge of clan survival, there needs to be a triumphal return to the clan. The girl will be feted, she's the clans future. Celebrating her capture helps integrate her into the clan and forms the transition in her relationship with her mate and captor.

neonlyte
 
Wow, I feel like it's my birthday.
All those suggestions are like presents from all of you.

Penny,
I agree about the appeal in historical settings. I started out with wanting to write fantasy, but my stories are ever more growing into adventures back in time.

Poussin,
Glad you liked the title. It's a little quirk of mine, to find titles with a double message or joke like that. The original was "Reindeer Warriors". :D
As for the use of Neanderthal and Cro-Magnon in one story, I was hesitating because I think Jane Auel did that in her Cave Bear (?) series. Didn't want to copycat. :rolleyes:

I went for a different tribe instead, but I see I need to expand that notion.

Neon,
Thanks for your input. I will definitely have a closer look at the way the story is told. I will have to, since the dialogue is way too modern. Not sure I can make it more fitting for the period. I could in my own language, but in English that could be asking too much. LOL Reducing the guys to grunts and sniffs.

The more I look at all the different idea's the more I get a feel of where it should be going.
Right now, I think it fair to say you can expect a second version up for critique some time in the future.

:D
 
Black Tulip

It’s always a safe bet to agree with the likes of Penny, Doc, Wishful, Neon, and Proussin, and I do. This isn’t a cop out, I’m just stating the facts. There’s little new to add. They’ve pointed out most of the flaws and weaknesses of the piece. I’ll add two more just to show I did pay attention.

TECHNICAL - Paragraph two: “Ivor, his bow across his shoulder, was still tying his pants as he stepped outside…”
RF: No sober person would ever try to exit a tent of any size with a bow across their shoulders. The odds of getting it caught in the opening are enormous.

WRITING - First sentence: “Dawn painted the sky a faint pink tinged with orange and Lars sniffed the air.”
RF: Unless that faint pink really is tinged with both orange and Lars, I’d suggest omitting the “and” then adding “as” or a comma or begin a new sentence.

--

BT: This one should be easy since I have only one major question:
Is it worth submitting?
RF: I like the idea of a Jean Auel style Lit story. The concept would seem to have great possibilities. However, while this one has potential, IMHO it needs work on several levels. I would not recommend submitting this version.

BT: Is it a believable male pov?
RF: YES

BT: And did I finally manage to stick to one POV?
RF: YES

BT: Do you get the right time frame, early stone age?
RF: I AGREE WITH DOC’S ASSESSMENT.

BT: As I said, I concentrated more on creating a feel for the historical contents than on the erotic part. Does it show? Good? Bad?
RF: YOU DID A GOOD JOB OF THAT, BUT MORE DETAILS WOULD HAVE HELPED.

BT: If I it is worth submitting, I think it should be as first time. Do you agree?
RF: PROBABLY NON-CONSENT. FIRST-TIME WOULD WORK IF IT WERE CONSENSUAL ON HER PART, PERHAPS AS PART OF AN INITIATION OR MARRIAGE CEREMONY.

--

I hope you continue working on this project. If you decide to re-write, I’d be happy to give you, I mean it, a line-item type going over. Don’t worry about asking, just PM it to me.

Rumple Foreskin :cool:
 
Rumple, you're a doll. :heart:

Your comments have me going off to bed doubled over with laughter however.
I now have this picture in my head of Dawn who clutches a Lars in her hands with which she paints the sky pink and orange.

In case I decide to go for comedy after all, your suggestion for the bow is priceless too.

:D :D :D
 
Black Tulip said:
Rumple, you're a doll. :heart:

Your comments have me going off to bed doubled over with laughter however.

:D :D :D
Just another fine, bedtime service of:

No Hope Enterprises
Rumple Foreskin, CYC (chief yuks creator)
 
Tulip,

Expect a new version soon- was that a hint we're done discussing this for now? I hope not. I still want to know if I was meant to identify with Lars.

I like what neonlyte mentioned regarding the importance of the mission to the clan. This is underplayed. I don't get the impression these three are on an important journey with the future of their tribe at stake. They seem more like a bunch of sailors headed for shore leave in Bangkok.

Playing up the long-term importance of their journey would really help put their actions in a different light. I like the clan giving them a send off. That's the sort of thing that makes a more gripping opening than somebody coming out of his tent and sniffing. Oh, and yes- if it's that important, why not wait for good weather?

If you still want to go with the abduction theme, that's valid- I'm sure it happened. But I expect the victim to bite, spit, kick, scratch, and scream. And I still find it the biggest turn-off when the victim of a violent assault starts to enjoy the activity or becomes enamoured with her assailant. I don't care what the era, that is something that will always stir me the wrong way.

Did anyone other than Poussin mention the bartering idea? I like the theme much better if the trio goes to a neighboring tribe to trade for a woman. There's still plenty of potential conflict to explore. What if Ivor doesn't think the redhead Lars wants is worth an axe, five saber-tooth fangs, half a mastodon hide and a pouch of blue pigment?

In the bartering scenario Nyssa still has to deal with the sadness of leaving her tribe, but her acquiescence is entirely believable. Instead of what amounts to a gang rape, the coupling can be something far more touching- and erotic. That gives the tale a true first-time flavor, no?

Oh shit. Now I'm envious too!
 
Penelope Street said:
Tulip,

Expect a new version soon- was that a hint we're done discussing this for now? I hope not. I still want to know if I was meant to identify with Lars.
I didn't say soon! And no, it was only meant to tell you all that I had decided to rework the story instead of killing it.

The story was written from Lars' point of view. Well, that was my goal. I'm not sure that will make you identify with Lars, could easily be one of the other persons in my opinion, but you see what happened from his perspective.

I like what neonlyte mentioned regarding the importance of the mission to the clan.
I agree. Not sure what I will do yet, but the clan will definitely be more involved.

Oh, and yes- if it's that important, why not wait for good weather?
I'm not sure there was such a thing as good weather. :D
Besides, they had to be back before the Ostara festivities. I think that needs more explaining as well. Perhaps get a place in the story after they return with their bounty.

I still find it the biggest turn-off when the victim of a violent assault starts to enjoy the activity or becomes enamoured with her assailant. I don't care what the era, that is something that will always stir me the wrong way.
Perhaps you do, but it is a big part of the attraction for Non-Consent. :rolleyes:

Did anyone other than Poussin mention the bartering idea? I like the theme much better if the trio goes to a neighboring tribe to trade for a woman. There's still plenty of potential conflict to explore. What if Ivor doesn't think the redhead Lars wants is worth an axe, five saber-tooth fangs, half a mastodon hide and a pouch of blue pigment?
Sounds very interesting to me as well. Doc already mentioned the possibility of trading.

:D
 
Penny said:
I still find it the biggest turn-off when the victim of a violent assault starts to enjoy the activity or becomes enamoured with her assailant. I don't care what the era, that is something that will always stir me the wrong way.
Tulip said:
Perhaps you do, but it is a big part of the attraction for Non-Consent. :rolleyes:

A big part of the attraction for whom?

From a strictly literary perspective, I have two major problems with victims enjoying an assault, especially an unexpected one. First problem: it's unrealistic. I might be willing to believe such a thing, but only in unusual circumstances. I need to see something in the victim so that I understand she is a masochist, is insane, already has feelings for her assailant, etc., before I'm willing to believe the physical sensations can possibly override all the negative emotions that must also be part of the experience. Second problem, when the victim enjoys herself that resolves much of the conflict. I find the interesting part of n/c is the mental turmoil. When the victim starts to enjoy herself, that turmoil all but evaporates.

Of course, from a non-literary perspective, it does bother me that a few seem to harbor the ridiculous notion that if a guy gives a girl a good fucking, she will magically love him in spite of anything and everything else he has done. That anyone would believe this leaves me shaking my head.

Take Care,
Penny
 
Penelope Street said:
A big part of the attraction for whom?

From a strictly literary perspective, I have two major problems with victims enjoying an assault, especially an unexpected one. First problem: it's unrealistic. I might be willing to believe such a thing, but only in unusual circumstances. I need to see something in the victim so that I understand she is a masochist, is insane, already has feelings for her assailant, etc., before I'm willing to believe the physical sensations can possibly override all the negative emotions that must also be part of the experience. Second problem, when the victim enjoys herself that resolves much of the conflict. I find the interesting part of n/c is the mental turmoil. When the victim starts to enjoy herself, that turmoil all but evaporates.

I would be willing to argue that this story falls into the 'unsual circumstances' exception. I doubt the idea of rape would have existed in this era. I also doubt that sex would be seen as a big deal, except for fertility rites or such. I would assume it would be something to enjoy, barter, share, pass the time and/or keep you warm. Perhaps too simplistic, but you get my drift.
 
Penelope Street said:
A big part of the attraction for whom?

From a strictly literary perspective, I have two major problems with victims enjoying an assault, especially an unexpected one. First problem: it's unrealistic. I might be willing to believe such a thing, but only in unusual circumstances. I need to see something in the victim so that I understand she is a masochist, is insane, already has feelings for her assailant, etc., before I'm willing to believe the physical sensations can possibly override all the negative emotions that must also be part of the experience. Second problem, when the victim enjoys herself that resolves much of the conflict. I find the interesting part of n/c is the mental turmoil. When the victim starts to enjoy herself, that turmoil all but evaporates.

Of course, from a non-literary perspective, it does bother me that a few seem to harbor the ridiculous notion that if a guy gives a girl a good fucking, she will magically love him in spite of anything and everything else he has done. That anyone would believe this leaves me shaking my head.

Take Care,
Penny

Penny

Hm, not sure but I get the impression you think non-consent is a male preference? I have to confess I like reading it too. Part of the attraction is the fact that the female involved is "forced" so she's not responsible for her reaction. You can be the biggest slut ever but it's not your fault.

Another part of it is the helplessness. I'm not in real life, probably the contrary so perhaps that's why I find it appealing. Maybe some psychiatrist could explain it better than me. :cool:

I'm talking fantasy here, I know that. I'd sure as hell put up a fight if some guy would really try to rape me. There's no doubt about that, but this is not for real.

I'm not certain yet but I am thinking of making it a fantasy story instead of non-consent.
Why don't we have a historical category? :rolleyes:

Right now, I'm in the process of working through the story with all your comments in hand. High-lighting and scratching out before adding and building. It will be a while since I have a new batch of tests coming up which means writing of a different nature. LOL

:D
 
wishfulthinking said:
I would be willing to argue that this story falls into the 'unsual circumstances' exception. I doubt the idea of rape would have existed in this era. I also doubt that sex would be seen as a big deal, except for fertility rites or such. I would assume it would be something to enjoy, barter, share, pass the time and/or keep you warm. Perhaps too simplistic, but you get my drift.

Yes, Wishful, I more than get your drift! Excellent points, and well worth discussing, IMO. In this case I believe it was me that failed to make my position clear enough.

Although it is not possible to say for certain what the society of cavemen thought of forced sex, my intuition is that you are correct; men likely didn't think anything of taking a woman regardless of what she thought of the matter. Perhaps women didn't find any shame in being so taken. Part of me hopes so.

Assuming this is true, I see the victim in the story being traumatized far more by the abduction than by the rape. This isn't some society where one meets strangers everyday. She's out picking berries expecting to see her family again within hours and suddenly she's never going to see them again.

Granted in the culture described, women are kidnapped routinely in this manner. The girl even has her hair arranged in an "It's ok to take me" sign. It's business as usual and the girl expects it to happen some day- but not today, not now. I don't see this shock as something she could overcome enough to enjoy anything. I see her mind elsewhere, on all those she will never see again, on her uncertain future, etc. I see a lot of tears, the beginning of what amounts to a grieving process.

Consider a different scenario: The men don't kidnap the women, they just rape them and then leave- thus dispersing the genes in that manner. Ok, that's not really practical, but the point is a hypothetical one. In this situation, when she's going to be back with her clan come nightfall, I can see her enjoying herself quite a bit. I hope my drift is more apparent now.

I'm still of the opinion the original scene represents an event of significant stress to this young girl. I am not willing to believe she is going to so easily find pleasure, sexual or otherwise, during such an unsettling incident.

But exploring this is just one of the many things that makes this story so appealing, isn't it?

Take Care,
Penny
 
Black Tulip said:
Hm, not sure but I get the impression you think non-consent is a male preference? I have to confess I like reading it too. Part of the attraction is the fact that the female involved is "forced" so she's not responsible for her reaction. You can be the biggest slut ever but it's not your fault.

Another part of it is the helplessness. I'm not in real life, probably the contrary so perhaps that's why I find it appealing. Maybe some psychiatrist could explain it better than me. :cool:

I'm talking fantasy here, I know that. I'd sure as hell put up a fight if some guy would really try to rape me. There's no doubt about that, but this is not for real.

I'm not certain yet but I am thinking of making it a fantasy story instead of non-consent.
Why don't we have a historical category? :rolleyes:

Right now, I'm in the process of working through the story with all your comments in hand. High-lighting and scratching out before adding and building. It will be a while since I have a new batch of tests coming up which means writing of a different nature. LOL

:D

Tulip,

For the record, I do not consider non-consent scenes to be evil. The entire concept of forced physical intimacy is a powerful one and generates instant conflict. And, ok, handled with care, they can even be erotic.

You are correct, I was thinking men would favor the brand of n/c where the female morphs from vestal virgin to sex kitten faster than Kirk can say "Beam me up, Scotty."

I admit, as a girl, I had fantasies where I was forced. That was when I thought sex and my related desires were both "bad". Then I grew up. Now I resent the upbringing that taught me to feel ashamed of a natural desire shared by all mammals.

Not that I want to be a slut, but I don't consider promiscuity in a woman to be a vice. I resent the idea that I need a reason, or excuse, or permission, or anything else, to have sex with whomever I please whenever I please. The entire, "You can be the biggest slut ever but it's not your fault" business implies there is a fault. I think that's an archaic mentality. That said, one could choose a reserved setting, either modern or historical, characterize a female as a repressed sexual creature and I'd be willing to believe a scene where she is coerced and enjoys it. The key to me is the characterization part prior to the incident. Wishful does an excellent job of working with this type of theme.

Similarly, I think the original scene in this story could work if I just had something to make me believe this girl ready to leave her clan and not look back. If she didn't struggle, that would be a big plus in this regard- then I might believe part of her upbringing was to accept this point of transition in her life. I can imagine her being momentarily reluctant and then acquiescing as she realizes it is her social obligation to do so, but I think this point should be crystal clear.

However, if it's a true abduction, then she should put up a real fight and not some token bit of nonsense. I do hope I'm beating a dead mastodon here, but please notice my objection from several weeks ago:
Penny said:
If you still want to go with the abduction theme, that's valid- I'm sure it happened. But I expect the victim to bite, spit, kick, scratch, and scream. And I still find it the biggest turn-off when the victim of a violent assault starts to enjoy the activity or becomes enamoured with her assailant.

Therein I specifically referenced the abduction, rather than the rape, as the source of the girl's distress. As Wishful said so well, this girl can be the most wanton and willing slut without the slightest social stigma. No STDs and pregnancy is probably viewed as a badge of honor- well, what's not to like about that?- That's a lot better than we've had during some more recent times!

It's the kidnapping and being taken from all that she has known- this is the source of stress that I can't get past to an extent necessary to believe this character's behavior.

I think the reason we don't have a historical category is the perception that the number of submissions would be small. Even so, I would be in favor of having such a category, but I can live without it. Maybe the new tags system will help with that. I hope when the kinks are worked out we will be able to apply tags to existing stories in an efficient manner.

I think Fantasy is an appropriate category for this story, even if it contains a non-consent scene.

Take Care,
Penny
 
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Dead mastodont, huh? :D

Yes, you've made your point clear and I will certainly do something with your objections in view of saying goodbye to all that's known in the girl's life. That's part of the reason I'm thinking of moving the story from the non-consent category.
Probably go for bartering but I'm not sure yet. It's still fermenting. LOL

My response was more in a general kind of way, not specifically related to this story.

:D
 
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