Story Discussion: April 24th 2010- "Three Surprises" by Shel_Ashling

[Guest]

First, thanks in advance for your time and energy in ready and responding to this post.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=469662

A little background: the submission under discussion is a piece called "Three Surprises" residing in the incest/taboo catagory. As a challange to myself I'm trying to eventually write at least one story in every catagory. That sounds relatively easy on the surface, but I don't want to write a story for a specific catagory simply to check it off the list. That isn't really difficult for a subject that interests me, but it becomes harder when the catagory is one that doesn't trip my trigger.

Incest is one of those catagories that just isn't something that gets me going. No judgement towards those who do enjoy it, but it's not my thing. That meant I had to find a way to write about a subject that just doesn't particularly turn me on without resorting to what to me would be a "cheat", i.e. just writing a generic sex story and changing one of the characters to a cousin simply to make it fit. There had to be real, organic reason for the story to fit in the catagory, and I had to find a way to make the story interesting to me beyond the sex.

On top of that, the Incest catagory, like Loving Wives, is one where the devoted readership tend to not like stories that fall outside of what they want. You really aren't rewarded for taking chances. As such, I got a pretty significant amount of hate mail for this piece. That in and of itself doesn't bother me, except that it really isn't very helpful in terms of making me improve as a writer. I'm cool with criticism if it is constructive, pointing out flaws, what I did wrong, etc. But when it is focused primarily on insults because a story didn't meet up to the reader's narrow requirements for a masturbation piece on a specific night, that really doesn't help me.

So that brings me to you, dear readers

A. Did I manage to make the story itself interesting?

B. Did I succeed with my dual goals of writing an actual story, and writing something with sex that didn't feel simply like an afterthought? It's easy to write sex, or write a story, but it's harder to write both in a piece and have both work.

C. It's a short piece, so there is a finite amount of room to develop characters, but did I at least do what could be done given the length?

D. This is much harder to guage from a single story, but if possible what do you think is my biggest weakness as a writer both in this story or as a whole, what needs the most work, etc.

Again, thanks a lot for your time.

 

[D_K_Moon]

Howdy. I haven't done this in a while, so I'll be making notes here as I read.

In the first three paragraphs you used SUV in each one. Maybe break it up, use the make and/or model, Chevy, Tahoe, Suburban, Ford, Expedtion in there once in a while.

whip-skinny, all lean sinew and feathery grace

I don't really see the first two going the with the third. Words like slight, slender, would go better with feathery grace.

I don't know squat about rowing, other than I love to watch it. But, generally in collegiate sports, transferring schools usually makes you ineligible for the current year and quite possibly the following. You might wish to check NCAA guidelines.

"Remember you need to get that thing for the thing," his mother reminded her husband.

"You broke another one?" Ben asked, trying to sound amused.

"No, he broke two, he bought a spare last time."

What was the point of this bit? I was and still am totally confused, it caused me to go back and reread the previous paragraphs to see if or what I had missed. You don't want to disrupt the flow of the story.

Watch the ellipses (. . .) they're not used for pauses, they're used for incomplete thoughts, missing words. Use the comma, and the em-dash for a longer pause.

Overall, I'd give the story a C. There was nothing compelling about any of characters. A lot of their actions, and conversations seemed contrived and forced.

Maybe we were missing some back story? It seemed that Benji was almost physically repulsed by his sister, and I have no idea why. I surmise that this reaction is due to a prior sexual encounter, but what happened? At least to me, there's a huge disconnect.

Now, to your questions, I wanted to give these a bit of thought before answering.

A: There really wasn't much of a story there. Benji's parents pick him up, and they drive somewhere. He has sex with his sister. The end.

B: No.

C. The characters seemed flat and lifeless to me.

D. It's tough to critique your writing just on this piece. I felt there was so much more to the story that you weren't telling us. Did you rush this piece out to get it submitted as fast as you could? The basic idea of your plot was good, it just wasn't well executed. So my advice is simply take your time, and don't worry about length. Don't force your characters, let them control the story.

Thanks for letting us look at your work and I look forward to the discussion.

 

[Guest]

In the first three paragraphs you used SUV in each one. Maybe break it up, use the make and/or model, Chevy, Tahoe, Suburban, Ford, Expedtion in there once in a while.

Hmmmm. Usually I'm pretty vigilant about that. It's really the equivalent of a typo in this case.

I don't know squat about rowing, other than I love to watch it. But, generally in collegiate sports, transferring schools usually makes you ineligible for the current year and quite possibly the following. You might wish to check NCAA guidelines.

Club sports for men at the schools in question, so it's a lot more akin to being in the drama club than playing for a Sweet 16 team.

What was the point of this bit? I was and still am totally confused, it caused me to go back and reread the previous paragraphs to see if or what I had missed. You don't want to disrupt the flow of the story.

To get the parents out of the car? I'm not really sure what was disruptive about it, except that I guess I could have specified exactly what they were going for.

Watch the ellipses (. . .) they're not used for pauses, they're used for incomplete thoughts, missing words. Use the comma, and the em-dash for a longer pause.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

"An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech..."

Overall, I'd give the story a C. There was nothing compelling about any of characters. A lot of their actions, and conversations seemed contrived and forced.

How so?

Maybe we were missing some back story? It seemed that Benji was almost physically repulsed by his sister, and I have no idea why. I surmise that this reaction is due to a prior sexual encounter, but what happened? At least to me, there's a huge disconnect.

The intention was that he was mostly repulsed by the fact that he gave in every time, and rather liked giving in, and hated himself for both giving in and liking it. I guess perhaps that wasn't clear, though I thought if anything I oversold the self-loathing angle.

Thanks for your time, though I have to be honest, most of that is pretty pedantic.

 

[D_K_Moon]

Club sports for men at the schools in question, so it's a lot more akin to being in the drama club than playing for a Sweet 16 team.

I find hard to believe that a father would be upset about his switching schools for intermural sports. Remember at the college level all intercollegiate sports are governed by the NCAA.

To get the parents out of the car? I'm not really sure what was disruptive about it, except that I guess I could have specified exactly what they were going for.

Yes, you knew the reason why, but not the reader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ellipsis

"An ellipsis can also be used to indicate a pause in speech..."

The Chicago Manual of Style suggests the use of an ellipsis for any omitted word, phrase, line, or paragraph from within a quoted passage. There are two commonly used methods of using ellipsis: one uses three dots for any omission, while the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: . . .) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three dots: . ...)

Generally, for writing go with the Chicago Manual of Style.

Thanks for your time, though I have to be honest, most of that is pretty pedantic.

The details can make the difference. And I, by no means am perfect in my own writing.

 

[Guest]

I find hard to believe that a father would be upset about his switching schools for intermural sports. Remember at the college level all intercollegiate sports are governed by the NCAA.

We've actually had to pass rules regarding parental behavior at events as insignificant as Little League for just this reason. Countless movies and tv shows have centered around just this kind of thing. It just happened on Modern Family about two weeks ago, which was the second time this season alone they've revolved an episode around that subject.

The Chicago Manual of Style suggests the use of an ellipsis for any omitted word, phrase, line, or paragraph from within a quoted passage. There are two commonly used methods of using ellipsis: one uses three dots for any omission, while the second makes a distinction between omissions within a sentence (using three dots: . . .) and omissions between sentences (using a period and a space followed by three dots: . ...)

Generally, for writing go with the Chicago Manual of Style.

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Documentation/Documentation33.html

Q. I am editing a nonfiction manuscript of interviews with several fiction writers. The author uses ellipses (fairly often) to indicate a long pause in speech or thought. Is this a correct use of ellipses? How do you differentiate between long pauses and omissions of some lines within the transcribed conversation?

A. Yes, ellipses are properly used to indicate long pauses. If you also use them to indicate omissions, then you need to differentiate them and explain in a note how you do so. One way is to use a plain ellipsis for a pause . . . and a bracketed ellipsis [ . . . ] for an omission.

The details can make the difference. And I, by no means am perfect in my own writing.

Repitition of words is a problem, i.e. the SUV thing should it crop up repeatedly, and if I do something like that I'd like to know so I can keep an eye on it. However, finding one instance of that is simply an error. An oddly-coupled set of descriptors (which "lean sinew and feathery grace" is in hindsight) is a problem if it happens often, but if it happens once it's a slip-up.

Again, no offense, but to me you are just coming across as someone looking to nitpick specifics, and not very accuratly at that. I can go through Hemmingway or McCarthy and find a strange sentence here or there if I want to, but it's a different thing to find a systemic issue.

Shit, that all sounds like sour grapes, and I apologize. My writing is certainly not infallable, and the last thing I want to sound like is the guy who takes criticism poorly, and I know that's what I sound like. However, at the risk of digging myself in further the things you choose to cricicize need work since about half of them are trivial, and the other half you aren't even correct about.

I appreciate the time and effort, and yes, the details can (and do) make all the difference in the world. A bunch of minor things affect everything, and I certainly need to watch them closer.

 

[D_K_Moon]

http://www.chicagomanualofstyle.org/CMS_FAQ/Documentation/Documentation33.html

Q. I am editing a nonfiction manuscript of interviews with several fiction writers. The author uses ellipses (fairly often) to indicate a long pause in speech or thought. Is this a correct use of ellipses? How do you differentiate between long pauses and omissions of some lines within the transcribed conversation?

A. Yes, ellipses are properly used to indicate long pauses. If you also use them to indicate omissions, then you need to differentiate them and explain in a note how you do so. One way is to use a plain ellipsis for a pause . . . and a bracketed ellipsis [ . . . ] for an omission.

I won't argue with that. What I stated is what I was told by an editor.

Repitition of words is a problem, i.e. the SUV thing should it crop up repeatedly, and if I do something like that I'd like to know so I can keep an eye on it. However, finding one instance of that is simply an error. An oddly-coupled set of descriptors (which "lean sinew and feathery grace" is in hindsight) is a problem if it happens often, but if it happens once it's a slip-up.

Again, no offense, but to me you are just coming across as someone looking to nitpick specifics, and not very accuratly at that. I can go through Hemmingway or McCarthy and find a strange sentence here or there if I want to, but it's a different thing to find a systemic issue.

No, I'm not trying to nitpick. If you ask for criticism be prepared to be criticized. It's nothing personal, and I know it's tough to take. I've taken my turn in the barrel in here before. The goal of most of the people in here is to show you where you are weak and to improve your writing. In defending your work it forces you to look at it in a different light. At least to me, that's where it has helped me the most.

Shit, that all sounds like sour grapes, and I apologize. My writing is certainly not infallable, and the last thing I want to sound like is the guy who takes criticism poorly, and I guarentee I'm doing just that. However, at the risk of digging myself in further the things you choose to cricicize need work since about half of them are trivial, and the other half you aren't even correct about.

I appreciate the time and effort, and yes, the details can (and do) make all the difference in the world. A bunch of minor things affect everything, and I certainly need to watch them closer.

I just think you could have done a much better job if you had taken the time to tell us the whole story. As the writer you know of all the details surrounding the story. The reader only knows what you tell them. And remember my comments are only my opinion, that and a couple of bucks might get you a cup of 7 Eleven coffee.

 

[D_K_Moon]

We've actually had to pass rules regarding parental behavior at events as insignificant as Little League for just this reason. Countless movies and tv shows have centered around just this kind of thing. It just happened on Modern Family about two weeks ago, which was the second time this season alone they've revolved an episode around that subject.

I understand, my daughter played ball from elementary through high school and now plays at the college level, so I do understand what you're saying regarding parental behavior.

I went back and reread the story to see if misunderstood. The way you wrote makes it sound like it's and inter-collegiate team. Maybe change it a bit so that it's a club team. I realize it may sound like nitpicking, but believe me, some readers like nothing more than to find some inconsequential detail and hammer you for it.

 

[sunandshadow]

Erm... but, it's not finished, is it? Is there supposed to be only 2 parts? Cause, it doesn't explain why the situation is the way it is. Why is the sister so violently dominating, why does she want him, and why is he cooperating if he's horrified?

A. Did I manage to make the story itself interesting?

I thought it was interesting, just unfinished.

B. Did I succeed with my dual goals of writing an actual story, and writing something with sex that didn't feel simply like an afterthought? It's easy to write sex, or write a story, but it's harder to write both in a piece and have both work.

Yes I thought the plot and sex fit very well together and the sex told an important part of the story.

C. It's a short piece, so there is a finite amount of room to develop characters, but did I at least do what could be done given the length?

Um, well personally I think every story should be as long as it needs to be, not artificially constrained. But, no I don't think it was a content-packed as possible for the wordcount. It was fairly tight, just seemed like the first few paragraphs had a few sentences that didn't advance the story or would have benefited from being less vague. This is an odd thing to say but, you've almost got too much showing, there were a few places where telling would have been more effective and efficient.

D. This is much harder to gauge from a single story, but if possible what do you think is my biggest weakness as a writer both in this story or as a whole, what needs the most work, etc.

Uh, not sure what I can say from such a short sample... Personally I would have preferred to hear more of the brother's thoughts, but that's a matter of taste. A clearer description of the brother's appearance would have been nice, I got a good impression of the sister's looks but not his.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

I liked it...

and this is only the second insest story I've read. I can't typically stomach them. I had planned on skipping this but for some reason...I'm glad I read it now.

Regarding the sport and NCAA, (puffing up my chest here) I've got a child playing NCAA D1 and one who graduated after 4 years of club rugby. The NCAA does govern club sports, but only in terms of specs, area, equipment, refs, coaches.... They are usually run just like the intramural, only they compete against other schools in their league. Also, even D1 athletes are able to change schools and transfer from one team to another. They simply need the coaches permission and providing the coach isn't a dick, and the reason for transfer being a compelling one, it's generally okay'd.

I mention all this to make a point, who cares? It makes no difference in the context of this story and I would wager that not more than 1 out of 50 readers would even consider if the rowing team was D1, club or intramural.

A. Did I manage to make the story itself interesting?

Yes, and again, incest is not my cup of tea. The sibling dynamics fascinated me. You nailed it!

Personally, I liked the way you flipped the victimization in this story. That you painted the brother, like his father, a huge man and the sister, like her mother a tiny little thing, made his victimization a very important part of his character. Being a male, a big male, taught to do the right thing, honor thy mother and not screw thy sister, but helpless to physically respond to stimulation. The brother is the oldest child and it's safe to assume he's been taught from day one to be gentle with his sister, be protective of her. To children hearing these messages, they interpret it to mean: "Give in to her to keep her happy. If she cries, it means you haven't been taking care of her."

I've seen this dynamic a few times among siblings. The older male child who seems to be a happy go lucky guy, gets along well with peers, follows directions well, and tends to stay within the lines. The younger sister who was born with a sense of entitlement that her brother will make her happy, enjoys being queen. When her own peers reject her as a result, she turns mean, her sense of entitlement making her believe it must be someone else's fault. Her older brother who has been trained to take care of her, now becomes her whipping boy.


B. Did I succeed with my dual goals of writing an actual story, and writing something with sex that didn't feel simply like an afterthought? It's easy to write sex, or write a story, but it's harder to write both in a piece and have both work.

Yes, I think so. However, the sex in this story was not what I would find arousing, but it was appropriate to the story. It highlighted and underlined how the younger sister has taken her punk emo self, thrown off society's norms and then pushed that envelope even further than she may have planned. I imagine their fist night together was more a dare she made for herself, another way to prove that her brother, even away at college, still belonged to her.

C. It's a short piece, so there is a finite amount of room to develop characters, but did I at least do what could be done given the length?

Again, yes. Perhaps I'm showing my age but I laughed at the part:

"Remember you need to get that thing for the thing," his mother reminded her husband.

"You broke another one?" Ben asked, trying to sound amused.

"No, he broke two, he bought a spare last time."

Having had similar conversations with my spouse, I knew just what she was talking about! You know, the thing!


D. This is much harder to guage from a single story, but if possible what do you think is my biggest weakness as a writer both in this story or as a whole, what needs the most work, etc.

I can't say, from just this one story, what your weaknesses are. I found the dialog believable and with good tempo.

Finally, sorry to beat a dead horse but I do have this one last thing to add about sports, NCAA, and FATHERS! Oh you beat your ass they weep and moan when their son's wear a different color than Dad did back when. I know a Dad who comes to games wearing his Alma mater vest underneath his child's team jacket. They claim to be teasing, but after3 years, give it a rest?

 

[GrumpyGamby]

And one more thing

I found the ending perfect. A thought provoking ending, leaving the reader wondering how this poor kid was going to deal with his sister living with him. I took a few moments and imagined what his following year would be like having his poltergeist of a sister under his roof. It leaves open the door for more, should you decide to take his misery further. Leaving the story ended, but the reader wanting more is, I think, a good thing to do.

Last point I promise. The previous commentators read your story entirely different than I did. I wonder if that has to do with varying ages, past experiences, in general who we are as separate people; or did our different perspectives come from differing writing abilities, strengths and experiences? I will be the first to admit my ability to write lacks polish and training. I would not in any way, shape or form claim to be remotely an expert or one who should advise another on how to write. I am simply a person who likes to read, knows when I'm being entertained or provoked, and has a very good understanding of human behavior and what motivates it. I only posted because I liked what I read and I didn't expect that at all.

I wonder why they saw something very different from what I saw?

 

[sunandshadow]

I probably should have explained a bit where I am coming from as a reader. I am an incest fan, but not an erotic horror fan; I kinda got the feeling this was supposed to be a horror-ish or at least gothic piece, but I don't want horror in my erotica so I typically fail to grasp why/how a reader should appreciate horrific elements in stories.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

Too funny!

How ironic!

That kind of does explain why we saw this story so differently. But adds more questions.
I like horror in general, and erotic horror only when done very well. However, incest, to me, is horrific. Yet I find incest stories distasteful in general.

So you saw the horrific situation this young man was thrust in and were turned off. I saw the horror of his situation as compelling, yet the incest itself, produced no reaction.

I'm going to be thinking on this one all night.

So glad you clarified.

 

[D_K_Moon]

Regarding the sport and NCAA, (puffing up my chest here) I've got a child playing NCAA D1 and one who graduated after 4 years of club rugby. The NCAA does govern club sports, but only in terms of specs, area, equipment, refs, coaches.... They are usually run just like the intramural, only they compete against other schools in their league. Also, even D1 athletes are able to change schools and transfer from one team to another. They simply need the coaches permission and providing the coach isn't a dick, and the reason for transfer being a compelling one, it's generally okay'd.

I mention all this to make a point, who cares? It makes no difference in the context of this story and I would wager that not more than 1 out of 50 readers would even consider if the rowing team was D1, club or intramural.

Sorry, Grumpy, but it's a bit more complex than that. Here's a link to the NCAA guidelines on transfers. Thirty some odd pages in a pdf file.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/TGONLINE2009.pdf

I care. I like accuracy in the details.

I wonder why they saw something very different from what I saw?

Because we are different. I was more critical of his writing than of the actual story. To me, the characters didn't seem real, I found them very flat and lifeless. Why was the sister so agressive towards the brother? Why was he so terrified of her? As I stated previously, I think the writer knew all of the details, but just didn't tell us. I think if he had shown us what motivated the sister, it could have been a much better story.

 

[Guest]

I probably should have explained a bit where I am coming from as a reader. I am an incest fan, but not an erotic horror fan; I kinda got the feeling this was supposed to be a horror-ish or at least gothic piece, but I don't want horror in my erotica so I typically fail to grasp why/how a reader should appreciate horrific elements in stories.

That's not far off the mark. Incest as a concept doesn't really turn me on; I find it more disturbing than anything (though no judgement against though that dig it). As such, it makes sense that the focus of my story was the more disturbing aspects of incest.

The disburbing aspect not appealing to you completely makes sense. It doesn't necessarily appeal to me, either. It simply makes what isn't (to me) interesting become interesting.

 

[Guest]

Sorry, Grumpy, but it's a bit more complex than that. Here's a link to the NCAA guidelines on transfers. Thirty some odd pages in a pdf file.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/TGONLINE2009.pdf

I care. I like accuracy in the details.

I dated a girl on the crew team at U of M. It was an NCAA sport, complete with the same rules that govern things such as top level football, etc. I got to know guys on the crew team as a result. It was NOT coverened with the same level of rules as the women's team. Transfers were acceptable, even mid-season.

So while I understand your supposed fascination with details, in this, as with your concernt with the details regaring the usage of ellipsis, you are completely and totally wrong.

It's fine to be concerned with details, but generally it's also a good idea to A. know what you are talking about when nitpicking details, and B. not continue to argue when you've shown to be incorrect in your nitpicking.

Because we are different. I was more critical of his writing than of the actual story. To me, the characters didn't seem real, I found them very flat and lifeless. Why was the sister so agressive towards the brother? Why was he so terrified of her? As I stated previously, I think the writer knew all of the details, but just didn't tell us. I think if he had shown us what motivated the sister, it could have been a much better story.

I simply don't understand how anyone doing even a tiny bit of thinking can't find all those answers to the questions in the text, and the answers that aren't there aren't answers that are necessary.

The sister is very clearly predatory, and very clearly gets off on making him miserable and fucking with him. She gets off on it, literally. How is that not a motivation about why she's so aggressive towards him? It's not spelled out in a thought balloon, but it's not exactly a difficult deductive leap to make for someone willing to spend the amount of time you've clearly spent nitpicking (incorrectly) details like club sport eligibility or ellipsis usage.

Why was the brother so terrified of her? Again, that seems relatively clear; he hates himself for fucking her, but he can't resist.

You're right that I didn't tell you the details, but me not telling you the details doesn't mean they aren't there. Is it possible I didn't make them clear enough? Yes.

Is it possible that you as a reader personally just couldn't manage to grok what other people did? The answer to that is yes as well.

 

[GrumpyGamby]

Sorry, Grumpy, but it's a bit more complex than that. Here's a link to the NCAA guidelines on transfers. Thirty some odd pages in a pdf file.

http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/TGONLINE2009.pdf

I care. I like accuracy in the details.

Thanks for the link, but I have already read it. However, I limited my reading to my daughter's specific sport.

You raise a good point to debate. A point that I will be looking for from commentators such as yourself when my turn in this queue comes along. When and how to limit details in a story? Is it important that a reader be given specifics on the accurate steps of tye dying, an activity in which the character is divulged to have engaged in as a means of explaining why her hands are mottled with different colors? Her funky colored hands being the reason and way another character is introduced? At what point should the author skim on details and conversely elaborate extensively. Being new at this, my assumption is to elaborate only when it is vital to the movement of the plot or the development of the character.

A story has to be congruent and make sense. For a short story, the details have to be miserly added. For example; a character is in a car, waiting at a red light while having a conversation. The conversation covered by the writer is one that goes on for pages and pages. Meanwhile the character is still sitting at the light, because the writer neglected to mention they began moving again at some point; an omitted detail that significantly interfered with the story, no matter the length of the story. However, if the writer had omitted the detail of waiting at a red light and only included the fact that the conversation took place inside a car, there would have been no further reason to discuss what was happening in traffic. Failing to mention what else was happening on the road as the conversation progressed would be a wise choice for a short story. But for a longer novel, these details would be more important as they would add to the scenery and environment in which the story was taking place. They would also provide an opportunity to further develop the character, should that be necessary, as the character observes and reacts to traffic while having a conversation.

In the case of this story, The Three Surprises, the kid's sport was a detail in which to demonstrate a link and a source of conflict between the kid and his Dad. Like the example of tye dying steps, was it important in a short story that transferring schools mid-year be given authenticity by divulging the steps in which the kid sought and received his old coach's and that AD's permission and his new coach's and the new AD's permission? For this reader, the answer was no. For you, the answer was yes. How then is a writer to draw the line? Sometimes, less is more. When are those times?

By the way, there are several different techniques available for tye dying. I know of only two, one is extremely messy, but gives more control over the finished product. The other is very neat, with little control. A woman with messy hands after completing this task, can be safely assumed to have used the messy technique. In this case however, even if the reader knows nothing about the art, it is inconsequential and takes away from the movement of a short story to be told which technique she used. Furthermore, to be told which technique she used borders on being talked down to by the author. Leaving those details omitted gives a nod of confidence to the reader who knows about tye dying, for the experienced reader now knows that the woman with messy hands tends to be goal oriented and exacting in her expectations. Depending on how important those qualities are to the believability of the character and her actions within the context of the plot would be the general guide on details. In the case of The Three Surprises, I don't believe a reader needs to understand that the kid followed the NCAA's rules regarding mid year transfers in order to gain insight into his character, or add believability to the story as a whole.

Because we are different. I was more critical of his writing than of the actual story. To me, the characters didn't seem real, I found them very flat and lifeless. Why was the sister so agressive towards the brother? Why was he so terrified of her? As I stated previously, I think the writer knew all of the details, but just didn't tell us. I think if he had shown us what motivated the sister, it could have been a much better story.

And here we have an example of not enough detail. The fact that we are different has already been stated and in general can be safely assumed. What can't be safely assumed is why this reader didn't need clarification on the sibling dynamics, while another reader did. Sometimes the writer needs to rely on the intelligence and experience of his readers. So again the question is asked, how is a writer to draw the line between details that can be omitted thus relying on the reader to figure it out, and demonstrating details to the point of losing the flow of the story?

I am not trying to assert my opinion as being more valid than others. I have seen many other critiques and comments of other stories that only served to make me question if the reader actually read the story, or perhaps just skimmed. Sometimes I have seen comments that prompted me to question if English was not a fluent language of the reader. I really don't understand how I can understand something implied but not said, while others have missed the clue. As I've said, I do not consider myself above anyone else's level of intelligence and that is why I honestly seek guidance on where to draw that line.

 

[sunandshadow]

How ironic!

That kind of does explain why we saw this story so differently. But adds more questions.
I like horror in general, and erotic horror only when done very well. However, incest, to me, is horrific. Yet I find incest stories distasteful in general.

So you saw the horrific situation this young man was thrust in and were turned off. I saw the horror of his situation as compelling, yet the incest itself, produced no reaction.

I'm going to be thinking on this one all night.

So glad you clarified.

Actually I think the reason the story feels unfinished to me, besides the lack of detail about the two characters' motivations, is that I didn't initially identify the situation as horrific at all. I saw the situation as "Ok the brother has a problem, he tried to avoid it but it showed up again, now what's he going to do about it?" I was waiting for the brother to face the situation including his own feeling and actions head-on and come to some sort of decision or realization about it.

A very common ending for incest stories is for the participants to decide "This is hot, I want it, I'm not going to angst over it any more." A more common horror ending would be for the brother to snap and either kill the sister or himself. The kind of 'ending' we're given, where the brother more or less faints at the thought of the future, is more typically used as a comedy ending than anything else. Result: reader confusion.

 

[D_K_Moon]

Is it possible that you as a reader personally just couldn't manage to grok what other people did? The answer to that is yes as well.

I wouldn't have gotten much past the third paragraph if I had just been reading.

I've read your story about a half dozen times now. Each time I'm left with the same feelings. There's a lot of grammar errors, spelling errors. It feels like you rushed this story out and submitted it as fast as you could. I told you before, I thought the premise of your story was fine, I just thought you could have executed it better.

As far ellipses go, I was just passing on what I had been taught by a professional editor. If you wish to use them and feel it's grammatically correct, then that's your perogative as a writer. There's nothing wrong with breaking the rules once in a while. I know I do.

Part of becoming a better writer is the ability to take criticism, and I can see you haven't arrived at that point in your career. None of my comments have been intended to be personal, but I think that's how you've taken them. Go to the third page on this forum, and look for three or four reviews requested for by drksideofthemoon and you'll see where I've had to take my lumps.

Now, what is it that you were actually looking for in your request to have your story critiqued?

 

[Penelope Street]

Now, what is it that you were actually looking for in your request to have your story critiqued?

Good idea about getting back on topic. Regardless of who was right or wrong about sports rules, grammar rules, or any other rules, it's past time to agree to differ and move on. Shel's work sounds like it could be quite an interesting little story and it would be a shame for a petty disagreement to escalate and derail what could be an equally interesting little discussion.

 

[Guest]

Actually I think the reason the story feels unfinished to me, besides the lack of detail about the two characters' motivations, is that I didn't initially identify the situation as horrific at all. I saw the situation as "Ok the brother has a problem, he tried to avoid it but it showed up again, now what's he going to do about it?" I was waiting for the brother to face the situation including his own feeling and actions head-on and come to some sort of decision or realization about it.

A very common ending for incest stories is for the participants to decide "This is hot, I want it, I'm not going to angst over it any more." A more common horror ending would be for the brother to snap and either kill the sister or himself. The kind of 'ending' we're given, where the brother more or less faints at the thought of the future, is more typically used as a comedy ending than anything else. Result: reader confusion.

Let me offer a simultaneous agreement and disagreement.

One of my favorite short stories of all time is John Updike's A&P. It's very much simply a little slice of a greater whole, occupying about ten minutes of real time. I often times have that in mind when I'm writing a shorter piece like this. I'm a fan of a reader simply being dropped in the middle of something, and an ending occuring when the interesting event ends. I don't feel there needs to necessarily be any closure, etc. Updike certainly didn't.

As such, I don't feel there is any need for the brother to face up to the situation. For starters, it's not at all part of his character, which was established by showing how he dealt with the situation by fleeing prior to the story. Everything that needs to happen for the story I wanted to tell is there.

In theory.

The problem is actual execution. I disagree that there needs to be resolution beyond what is present, but it's entirely possible that I didn't succeed in making what was present feel satisfying. A&P works without a real resolution because Updike is Updike. I'm obviously no Updike, and I clearly could have done a better job with making the lack of a resolution still feel like an ending.

I disagree that the structure was flawed, because it is possible to tell a story with the structure I used. I agree that I may not have succeeded in doing what I wanted/needed to do within the confines of that structure.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Guest]

Also, upon a re-read I dropped the ball regarding painting a clearer picture of the brother. My excuse for that is that I somewhat based him in my head on a Ben I actually knew, so since the details were present in my imagination already I probably skipped on them on paper. And I clearly skipped on them. He needed more fleshing about beyond what you get from dialogue.

 

[sunandshadow]

One of my favorite short stories of all time is John Updike's A&P. It's very much simply a little slice of a greater whole, occupying about ten minutes of real time. I often times have that in mind when I'm writing a shorter piece like this. I'm a fan of a reader simply being dropped in the middle of something, and an ending occuring when the interesting event ends. I don't feel there needs to necessarily be any closure, etc. Updike certainly didn't.

Perhaps it's just an issue of personal preferences then - Updike or not, I don't like stories without closure. I'm willing to wager at least 70% of people would agree.