Story Discussion: April 21, 2009- "It happened in the night"-loganforester

[loganforester]

This is the 4th chapter of a novel I'm in the middle of. The first 2 chapters premiered during the Halloween 2008 contest winning 2nd place. Although it's posted in the Novels andf Novellas category the story does contain some strong horror elements, just to caution those who may be a bit squeamish. This chapter is around 7-8000 words.

Although it's not necessary to read the first 3 chapters in order to analyze what I want out of this review, it may be hard to follow the plot without doing so. I've been asked to provide a synopsis of the first 3 chapters for those who haven't read it before.

Chapter 1

We're introduced to Brian, the protagonist, and his wife Karen, young son's Josh and Matt. They are your typical small town family, he works in a family business and she stays at home with the kids. The chapter essentially establishes their relationship as happy, well adjusted and more or less "normal".

Chapter 2

This is probably the keystone chapter to the entire novel. Brian wakes up in the morning, gets ready for work and realizes something is very wrong. His wife and kids are dead and so is everyone else or so it seems. Stricken with grief, Brian digs a grave in his backyard and buries his family in it and collpases in bed. When he wakes up he hears noises coming up the stairs. Soon it becomes obvious that it's his family and he looks through the window to the backyard and the grave has been dug up. It ends with his wife talking to him through the locked bedroom door. He's unsure if it's real or a dream.

Chapter 3

Brian wakes up in the morning to find his family lying dead in their beds. He also finds messages scrawled on his living room walls written in what appears to be his wife's blood. Later on he reburies them all, after being suspicious that they have been moving around when he's not in the room with them. He tries to douse his heartache with alcohol to no avail. This trend continues every day for 6 days until he's ready to snap. Finally, he decides the next night he'll open the door and let his dead? wife in. The chapter ends as he opens the door. This is where chapter 4 starts off.


I hope this helps people feel comfortable with where the plot is leading up to Chapter 4. It's tough judging a middle chapter some 20k+ into the story.

 

[loganforester]

It happened in the Night Chapter 4

 

[loganforester]

I'm looking for feedback on the most recent chapter, or the series as a whole if anyone is that brave, while I'm writing the next couple chapters. My hope is that you can gain enough out of just the current chapter to provice good feedback without being too confused starting in the middle of the story.

1) Character Development How do you feel about Brian? Is he real, 3 dimensional enough for the main character of a very long story? Do you like him, dislike him, feel sympathy?

How do you feel about Misty from her brief appearance? Does she seem like a good foil for Brian? Do you see good chemistry between them starting?

2) Writing style Is the story pacing consistent throughout and with the overall tone of the story? Is there the appropriate amount of dialog? Is it effective?

Is the writing engaging enough? Did it allow you to suspend disbelief? Any general comments about my writing style would be appreciated.

3) Plotting Does it flow? Is the storyline believable and does it have too many twists? Are there too many questions left unanswered? I'm trying to walk a fine line between keeping the reader in suspense about what's happening and giving too much information, is it working?

4) Ending A couple of comments I've received mentioned how quickly the last part of the chapter flew by, do you agree? Does this part of the chapter require more time spent or does it work as is?

Any other comments about parts of this chapter or the story in general would also be welcome in addition to anything about spelling grammar etc. Thanks in advance for all the feedback I receive I'm very curious as to what everyone thinks. I'm very open minded when it comes to feedback so don't feel the need to be gentle with me.

 

[ellabee]

Hi Logan,

I don't have time to read the first three chapters, but I wanted to get to your story before the end of today...this critique is based only on Chapter 4. I'll try to read the first three later and give you a more holistic critique later.

As for character development, I think Brian has a good character so far. I'd like to know a little bit more of what's going on in his head; a lot of what we see Brian doing is plot, rather than thought. He seems to be taking this in stride, which isn't how I would expect someone who is one of two survivors in the world to act.

Misty's interaction with Brian is too short, so I can't say if she's a good fit or not. It seems like it has potential. Perhaps beef this part up?

Writing style is easy, more focused on plot than dialog. But that is neither here nor there; everybody differs in this regard and I found your style to be comfortable and easy to read...no complaints on that end.

Plotting - you want this story to be believable? Isn't it a horror? It's not believable, but Brian's reactions, to a certain extent, are. I'm not really sold on the ghosts/zombies/whatever you'd like to call them. They seem too honest, too ready to make themselves known. Does that make sense? It's like Brian asks the one that looks like his wife a question and she answers him rather matter-of-factly, then goes down on him, then burns him, then he says "hey! you're not my wife!" (I'm paraphrasing ), and she says "drat!" and he leaves. I feel like the dead characters could be a little more mysterious.

The plot's speed and content is great until Brian meets his "dad." Then it speeds up like you wanted to get this one submitted and move on to the next chapter. I like when chapters can almost stand on their own...which this one did until the very last part. Why leave us so soon, Logan? We know there's going to be another chapter...but can't you leave us with a little bit more?

Overall, this chapter made me want to go back to read the rest. It was intriguing, creepy, and overall, well-written. I think you have a good start to an erotic horror novel - thanks for sharing!

Oh, and like I said, please do take this with a grain of salt - I wouldn't be surprised if my critiques were answered in previous chapters.

<3 Ella

 

[regularguynsac]

1) Character Development How do you feel about Brian? Is he real, 3 dimensional enough for the main character of a very long story? Do you like him, dislike him, feel sympathy?

Honestly, I had to re-read certain portions a number of times. Though I cannot put my finger on it, he feels, contradictory, for lack of a better word. It's like he's weak and strong in the same ways. I hope this makes sense.

How do you feel about Misty from her brief appearance? Does she seem like a good foil for Brian? Do you see good chemistry between them starting?

Not enough exposure to really feel much of anything. She's got a tomboy or drive it like you stole it feel to her. Maybe a little dangerous.


2) Writing style Is the story pacing consistent throughout and with the overall tone of the story? Is there the appropriate amount of dialog? Is it effective?

I like the pace of the story. I had to go back and read the first three chapters to get a sense for things but the dialog rolls very naturally.


Is the writing engaging enough? Did it allow you to suspend disbelief? Any general comments about my writing style would be appreciated.

This may sound strange, but I still haven't really figured the story out. I get the sense you could just about take it any place you wanted and it would still make sense. As for disbelief, I hadn't thought about it until you asked. I never had disbelief from the beginning. I approached it with an open mind, like a Stephen King novel I guess.



3) Plotting Does it flow? Is the storyline believable and does it have too many twists? Are there too many questions left unanswered? I'm trying to walk a fine line between keeping the reader in suspense about what's happening and giving too much information, is it working?

Excellent question. I think it's half and half. I know, not very helpful. There were times (Chapter 4 - Radio Static/Radar Love) What's causing this? Did I miss it? I guess some areas seem very blunt, and others, I am still trying to figure them out. I think you could share a bit about what caused all this to happen. Alot of time is being spent on what is happening. Maybe a little more on the why.


4) Ending A couple of comments I've received mentioned how quickly the last part of the chapter flew by, do you agree? Does this part of the chapter require more time spent or does it work as is?

Ok, don't put alot of stock into my response because I like it when a section starts of slow, speeds up and then ends by sliding in broadside. And this chapter did exactly that. So, I would agree that it went by quickly but I enjoy that type of read.


Hope this helps. This is the first story of this type I've read here and you've got me rethinking alot of my writings. That's a very solid complement.


Sam

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Logan,

Thanks for sharing your story and congratulations on winning a prize in the Halloween competition. I perused the first three chapters and your summaries are excellent.

That initial paragraph of chapter one has a bizarre feel that reminded me at once of StanislawKaslowski's story's opening, though there's nothing wrong with a horror story starting off with a touch of the bizarre.

Great concept, showing us an ordinary day for Brian first- but it was so slow- just like a normal person's day, go figure! I think you could have just started when Brian's wife calls him at work and still accomplished your goal of showing his normal life. This is one case where 'happy couple sex' was effective for the plot.

If I hadn't read your reviews and already trusted you as a writer, I probably wouldn't have kept reading long enough to get to the scary parts. The wavering perspective and seemingly extraneous details early sure didn't help instill confidence. Perhaps we should have a dedicated thread about how authors can establish trust with new readers?

For me, the drama really began when Leilandra started speaking, so chapter three was far more captivating than the previous two. When Brian becomes aroused by her ghoulish manifestation, and then interacts with her in an explicit way, well, that was just plain gross. Stories like this could be such a great dieting aid! But is this what you wanted?

1) Character Development How do you feel about Brian? Is he real, 3 dimensional enough for the main character of a very long story? Do you like him, dislike him, feel sympathy?
Brian is ever so dull- which is fine for what you're doing. His situation is definitely sympathetic, though his reaction upon finding his family dead in the second chapter felt a bit off- I'm not certain why though, it's so hard to say how anyone would react in that situation. I'm sure I'd totally lose it. So, yeah, I like him enough to go along with him and see what happens.

How do you feel about Misty from her brief appearance? Does she seem like a good foil for Brian? Do you see good chemistry between them starting?
To me, Misty's appearance seems more appropriate to a porn story than a horror story, though I suppose you're trying to write both? I half expected her to flash him and tell him to have a good look and get it out of his system- though she's plenty snappy anyway. I liked her, "Any port in a storm as long as I'm captain of the ship" attitude.

2) Writing style Is the story pacing consistent throughout and with the overall tone of the story? Is there the appropriate amount of dialog? Is it effective?
No, I don't think the pacing is consistent. I enjoyed the dialogue- so I guess it's effective if that was your goal.

Is the writing engaging enough? Did it allow you to suspend disbelief? Any general comments about my writing style would be appreciated.
Generally, yes. If anything, I felt some points were belabored in the early chapters- which actually served to reduce my suspension of disbelief.

3) Plotting Does it flow? Is the storyline believable and does it have too many twists? Are there too many questions left unanswered? I'm trying to walk a fine line between keeping the reader in suspense about what's happening and giving too much information, is it working?
Less information can be suspenseful, so I think you're doing fine with the plot. This issue I see going forward with regard to believability is how these two humans are actually going to overcome the apparently invincible invaders. At this point, I think it'd be more plausible if they failed- but I certainly don't want them too! I hope a few of those apparently extraneous details, like the pink paint, end up being some great foreshadowing.

4) Ending A couple of comments I've received mentioned how quickly the last part of the chapter flew by, do you agree? Does this part of the chapter require more time spent or does it work as is?
The pace of the last two chapters seems faster than the first couple, which I thought were far too slow- unless your goal was to achieve some kind of 19th century feel? If you can maintain the pace and the intensity, or maybe even increase them, I can see myself reading the rest of this story.

Thanks again for sharing your work with us.

Take Care,
Penny



P.S.

I'd like to know a little bit more of what's going on in his head; a lot of what we see Brian doing is plot, rather than thought. He seems to be taking this in stride, which isn't how I would expect someone who is one of two survivors in the world to act.

I agree. I understand Logan prefers third-person perspective, but to me this story all but begs to be told by Brian.

I'm not really sold on the ghosts/zombies/whatever you'd like to call them. They seem too honest, too ready to make themselves known. Does that make sense?

I kind of thought the same thing, but decided I'd wait and see if their behavior made sense when I learned more about them.

Honestly, I had to re-read certain portions a number of times. Though I cannot put my finger on it, he feels, contradictory, for lack of a better word. It's like he's weak and strong in the same ways. I hope this makes sense.

I had to re-read a few portions too and I didn't feel all that in touch with Brian either, but I'm still willing to go along with him for the ride.

 

[loganforester]

Thanks for the great response so far guys, very much appreciated. I don't have time to post a full response to everyone right now but will later tonight. You've given me lots to think about.

 

[Keroin]

Hi Logan! Thanks so much for sharing this Chapter with us and congrats on the second place.

I’ll address your questions first then offer some general feedback. I also do not have time to read the first three chapters at this point but I feel I “get” enough of what’s going on to comment effectively.

Character Development How do you feel about Brian? Is he real, 3 dimensional enough for the main character of a very long story? Do you like him, dislike him, feel sympathy?

I am ambivalent about Brian. I neither like nor dislike him and I wish I could feel more strongly in either direction. I’ve done this before in stories. In fact, the novel ms I’m working on at the moment used to have this problem, until it was pointed out to me by a very sharp and no-nonsense editor. What was happening was I was trying so hard to make my protagonist likable that I forgot to make her human. This is the feeling I get from Brian. Too nice, too ordinary. Think about protagonists you love and ask yourself why.

Also, he’s just way too flat line about all this. Lucid moments punctuated by micro-breakdowns would sell his shock for me.

How do you feel about Misty from her brief appearance? Does she seem like a good foil for Brian? Do you see good chemistry between them starting?

She’s good. I like Misty more than Brian. However, I think their meeting is just too easy considering the extraordinary circumstances. I’d either like to see a roadblock keeping them from getting along or a more high stakes moment in their meeting. If she were in immediate danger, the scene would be far snappier.

2) Writing style Is the story pacing consistent throughout and with the overall tone of the story? Is there the appropriate amount of dialog? Is it effective?

Pacing was OK but could be made tighter, mostly by cleaning up some unnecessary wordage. I’d like to see more of a contrast, pacing wise, between the high adrenalin sex scene and the day-after scene.

Dialogue is good but, again, could be better. I’d like to see the scene with Brian and Leilandra done almost completely with dialogue. I think this would help the pacing, too.

Is the writing engaging enough? Did it allow you to suspend disbelief? Any general comments about my writing style would be appreciated.

Suspending disbelief was not an issue. Your writing style is technically good but what’s missing is a strong voice. (I used to grit my teeth when editors and agents talked about “voice” but I can see how important it is now). I agree that this story would work far, far better in first person, from Brian’s POV.

3) Plotting Does it flow? Is the storyline believable and does it have too many twists? Are there too many questions left unanswered? I'm trying to walk a fine line between keeping the reader in suspense about what's happening and giving too much information, is it working?

Plot is good. No problem there except a few niggly details. But plot is so easy to fix and, when writing a novel, I usually don’t sweat it too much until the first draft is complete. Lots of questions unanswered but I would expect that in chapter four of a novel. LOL. One plot point that really jumped out at me, though, was the conversation with Brian’s dad. Again, this felt too easy and also inconsistent. There’s no explanation for why this thing is helping him. Or, if there is a reason, it needs to be spelled out more clearly.

4) Ending A couple of comments I've received mentioned how quickly the last part of the chapter flew by, do you agree? Does this part of the chapter require more time spent or does it work as is?

Ending was fine. Not too quick. Varying pace is good anyway.


OK, let me grab my BDSM gear so I can wail on you for awhile. (I only beat up on writers I think have talent so take this as a compliment – har har).

First – you have got to get rid of your clichés! “Vice-like grip”, “that fateful morning”, “his legs felt like lead”, “paralyzed with fear”, etc, etc. You must find new, fresh ways to tell a story otherwise it is not your story. Your writing is better than that.

Second – do not tell me the obvious. How else would he see her except with his own eyes? (1st sentence, 1st page). He’s weeping from “loss and despair”? Really? I’d never have guessed. (I’m such a smart ass, feel free to burn me in effigy). There are other examples but I think you get the idea.

Third – watch “soft” words. “Seemingly”, “perhaps”, “almost”, etc, these words weaken your idea. Take a stand. It is or it is not, there is no “seems”. (Thank you master Yoda). Yes, they can be used but try to limit them to character’s dialogue or thought as much as possible.

Fourth – When Brian is alone, or is the only male, you don’t need to use his name so much. I felt over-Brianed much of the time. Also, if he is alone, you can have him thinking without letting us know it is him doing the thinking. To this end, I would use single quotation marks or italics to denote thought. This will do wonders for trimming the excess wordage and speeding the pace.

Without having read the first three chapters, but based on Penelope’s comments and your own summaries, I would say the novel should start with Chapter two. You want to have your inciting event as close to the beginning as possible – preferably in the first five pages, ideally on the first page, (referring to Word pages, not Lit pages).

So let’s talk about the good stuff. You have a nice strong foundation and I think you have the skills to make it work. Some of the best moments, for me, happened in the horrific sex scene. It felt very real. For example, “She whisked his pants down over his legs and onto the floor in a fluid motion that released his cock with a hard smacking sound against his belly.” This puts me right there! Just the sound, the smack, tells me how quickly she is disrobing him and creates some nice tension. Well done.

This I also liked, “He was startled out of his revelry when he felt a finger tickle the bud of his asshole.” The tickling runs so counter to the aggressiveness and yet it’s perfect. Woke me up too! This is one of the few moments where I connect with Brian, where he feels like a real person to me because he has a dirty little secret, just like everyone else. Nice.

Iceberg on his balls, great image!

I think you have lots to work with here, keep going. If you have some free time, find yourself a copy of “The First Five Pages” by Noah Lukeman. A fantastic editor recommended this book to me, a few years back, and I got tons out of it.

Hope my comments are helpful!

Cheers,
K

 

[loganforester]

Hi Logan,

I don't have time to read the first three chapters, but I wanted to get to your story before the end of today...this critique is based only on Chapter 4. I'll try to read the first three later and give you a more holistic critique later.

As for character development, I think Brian has a good character so far. I'd like to know a little bit more of what's going on in his head; a lot of what we see Brian doing is plot, rather than thought. He seems to be taking this in stride, which isn't how I would expect someone who is one of two survivors in the world to act.

Misty's interaction with Brian is too short, so I can't say if she's a good fit or not. It seems like it has potential. Perhaps beef this part up?

Writing style is easy, more focused on plot than dialog. But that is neither here nor there; everybody differs in this regard and I found your style to be comfortable and easy to read...no complaints on that end.

Plotting - you want this story to be believable? Isn't it a horror? It's not believable, but Brian's reactions, to a certain extent, are. I'm not really sold on the ghosts/zombies/whatever you'd like to call them. They seem too honest, too ready to make themselves known. Does that make sense? It's like Brian asks the one that looks like his wife a question and she answers him rather matter-of-factly, then goes down on him, then burns him, then he says "hey! you're not my wife!" (I'm paraphrasing ), and she says "drat!" and he leaves. I feel like the dead characters could be a little more mysterious.

The plot's speed and content is great until Brian meets his "dad." Then it speeds up like you wanted to get this one submitted and move on to the next chapter. I like when chapters can almost stand on their own...which this one did until the very last part. Why leave us so soon, Logan? We know there's going to be another chapter...but can't you leave us with a little bit more?

Overall, this chapter made me want to go back to read the rest. It was intriguing, creepy, and overall, well-written. I think you have a good start to an erotic horror novel - thanks for sharing!

Oh, and like I said, please do take this with a grain of salt - I wouldn't be surprised if my critiques were answered in previous chapters.

<3 Ella

Thanks for taking time to read my story. I can't really expect you to read the entire thing since it is quite long.

One of the problems I chose when I decided on 3rd person is exactly what you and Penelope both referred to with not being able to get inside the characters head as well as 1st person. By the time Brian gets to chapter 4 it's been a week since they died and he's emotionally worn out from all the crap that's been happening to him since. In chapter 3 you seem him much more emotional and being worn out than he is in this chapter.

I agree with you that it's more focused on plot than dialog. Part of the problem with the lack of dialog is the lack of characters in the early chapters. Most of the characters are dead and aren't all that chatty. The dialog will get more developed as more characters appear.

Well believeable isn't the same as realistic, which it certainly isn't. What you mention about the zombies is absolutely true. They give away way too much information and without spoiling a large part of the main plot I can't tell you why. I hope it's not too jarring that they seem to be menacing and yet helpful and open at the same time. I get how this can be a believeability issue for readers and I'm not sure how to reconcile that while still getting the info across to readers.

You're bang on correct about what happened at the end of the chapter. I was in a hurry to get it finished and I sped through the final couple scenes. They do need revision to give a bit more detail, you're not the first to mention it to me.

Thanks for taking the time to comment it gave me some thing to think about and look for moving forward as I write the next chapters.

 

[loganforester]

Thanks Sam for the review, very much appreciated.


Honestly, I had to re-read certain portions a number of times. Though I cannot put my finger on it, he feels, contradictory, for lack of a better word. It's like he's weak and strong in the same ways. I hope this makes sense.

Brian is a character I really struggled with trying to make "real". Honestly I think he needs some work, that's why it was at the top of my questions list.

Not enough exposure to really feel much of anything. She's got a tomboy or drive it like you stole it feel to her. Maybe a little dangerous.

Yeah she's a different character from Brian for sure. Part of what I hope makes them work together is their opposite nature.

This may sound strange, but I still haven't really figured the story out. I get the sense you could just about take it any place you wanted and it would still make sense. As for disbelief, I hadn't thought about it until you asked. I never had disbelief from the beginning. I approached it with an open mind, like a Stephen King novel I guess.

That's good that you haven't figured it out yet, it's very early on. The plot going forward has alot of twists, so their is no chance you should have even a little idea how it will progress.


Excellent question. I think it's half and half. I know, not very helpful. There were times (Chapter 4 - Radio Static/Radar Love) What's causing this? Did I miss it? I guess some areas seem very blunt, and others, I am still trying to figure them out. I think you could share a bit about what caused all this to happen. Alot of time is being spent on what is happening. Maybe a little more on the why.

The why, as I mentioned to Ellabee is a major part of the surprise in the plot. None of the characters(that aren't dead) have the faintest idea what's going on. Their is no communications technology that still works and Brian was asleep when the inciting event happened. It's a bit of a leap of faith from the reader that I will explain all in due time, because right now the reader just has to follow along and try to piece it together just like Brian.

Ok, don't put alot of stock into my response because I like it when a section starts of slow, speeds up and then ends by sliding in broadside. And this chapter did exactly that. So, I would agree that it went by quickly but I enjoy that type of read.

I'm glad you didn't find the ending too abrupt, I've had mixed reactions to it.

Thanks for your comments and feedback.

 

[loganforester]

Hi Penelope,

Thanks for the review, sorry it took so long to respond, it's been crazy busy around here.


That initial paragraph of chapter one has a bizarre feel that reminded me at once of StanislawKaslowski's story's opening, though there's nothing wrong with a horror story starting off with a touch of the bizarre.

I'm surprised more people haven't commented on that paragraph. I knew it was unique when I wrote it and had some reservations about it, but aside from my editor you're the first to mention it.

Great concept, showing us an ordinary day for Brian first- but it was so slow- just like a normal person's day, go figure! I think you could have just started when Brian's wife calls him at work and still accomplished your goal of showing his normal life. This is one case where 'happy couple sex' was effective for the plot.

I like the concept in theory, like yourself I think it's far too long winded. Before I even posted it for review I'd made a number of changes to Chapter 1 and reduced it by almost half. I'm glad you pointed it out, since I noticed it myself after re-reading a few months later.

If I hadn't read your reviews and already trusted you as a writer, I probably wouldn't have kept reading long enough to get to the scary parts. The wavering perspective and seemingly extraneous details early sure didn't help instill confidence. Perhaps we should have a dedicated thread about how authors can establish trust with new readers?

I actually think that thread idea is a good one. I'm glad you did get through it and find the rest of the story more engaging. I really struggled with the concept of how to write opening chapter. I started writing it several times starting it different places in the plotline trying to find a good jumping on point. It seems I picked a little too early. Some of the chapter 1 material could be covered in brief flashbacks later.


For me, the drama really began when Leilandra started speaking, so chapter three was far more captivating than the previous two. When Brian becomes aroused by her ghoulish manifestation, and then interacts with her in an explicit way, well, that was just plain gross. Stories like this could be such a great dieting aid! But is this what you wanted?

I was going for disturbing more than gross, but I guess it worked.


Brian is ever so dull- which is fine for what you're doing. His situation is definitely sympathetic, though his reaction upon finding his family dead in the second chapter felt a bit off- I'm not certain why though, it's so hard to say how anyone would react in that situation. I'm sure I'd totally lose it. So, yeah, I like him enough to go along with him and see what happens.

I'm trying to make Brian into someone that everyone can identify with and in the process he seemed to lose any kind of identity. He is kinda boring. I'm intending him to be rather quiet, introverted but very smart with powerful emotions laying in wait under the reserved surface.

Trying to capture the emotions of someone in that situation was a struggle.

To me, Misty's appearance seems more appropriate to a porn story than a horror story, though I suppose you're trying to write both? I half expected her to flash him and tell him to have a good look and get it out of his system- though she's plenty snappy anyway. I liked her, "Any port in a storm as long as I'm captain of the ship" attitude.

Not so much porn story as erotic horror, not with the emphasis being on the sex itself. I rather like her myself and I'm trying to keep her from overwhelming Brian with her big personality going forward.

Less information can be suspenseful, so I think you're doing fine with the plot. This issue I see going forward with regard to believability is how these two humans are actually going to overcome the apparently invincible invaders. At this point, I think it'd be more plausible if they failed- but I certainly don't want them too! I hope a few of those apparently extraneous details, like the pink paint, end up being some great foreshadowing.

I wish I could say all the extra details are going to be relevant. Most of them are, but some are simply background and even the odd red herring. There is alot of foreshadowing going on, but not all of it is obvious until it's revealed later.

As to how they can defeat the enemy? Well you'll just have to keep reading to find out how and whether it happens. Needless to say, nothing I've revealed so far gives you any idea but the conversation Brian had with his dad is key.

The pace of the last two chapters seems faster than the first couple, which I thought were far too slow- unless your goal was to achieve some kind of 19th century feel? If you can maintain the pace and the intensity, or maybe even increase them, I can see myself reading the rest of this story.

I'm glad you found the chapters are getting better and more on pace as it goes along because the pace is about to get much faster and hold that intensity for a while to come. That's part of the reason I struggled with the start of the story and where to jump on. I originally had it planned to start it what will be soon be chapter 6 and flashback to all that's happened so far.

I do have some revisions planned and honestly that's why I'm asking for feedback at this point before I get farther in and have to change more. What's posted is more like a 3rd draft rather than a finished product, I know it needs work.

As for perspective, I know that 1st person has some inherent advantages for the story but I'm not a fan of writing or reading in it. I think with better use of inner monologue I can get most of the advantage and tighten things up without a switch.

Thanks for a very detailed review.

 

[loganforester]

Hi Keroin,

Thanks for taking time to read and comment on my story.


I am ambivalent about Brian. I neither like nor dislike him and I wish I could feel more strongly in either direction. I’ve done this before in stories. In fact, the novel ms I’m working on at the moment used to have this problem, until it was pointed out to me by a very sharp and no-nonsense editor. What was happening was I was trying so hard to make my protagonist likable that I forgot to make her human. This is the feeling I get from Brian. Too nice, too ordinary. Think about protagonists you love and ask yourself why.

Also, he’s just way too flat line about all this. Lucid moments punctuated by micro-breakdowns would sell his shock for me.

Like I mentioned to Penelope, Brian was my attempt to create a character that everyone could relate to and I think he lost that individuality somewhere along the line. He is too nice and ordinary and a little dull.

She’s good. I like Misty more than Brian. However, I think their meeting is just too easy considering the extraordinary circumstances. I’d either like to see a roadblock keeping them from getting along or a more high stakes moment in their meeting. If she were in immediate danger, the scene would be far snappier.

I really enjoy writing Misty. She's a fun gal to get inside her head. Their meeting doesn't have much suspense to it, so I agree that could be improved. I was hoping just the fact that Brian met another person and her personality would carry the scene but perhaps not.

Pacing was OK but could be made tighter, mostly by cleaning up some unnecessary wordage. I’d like to see more of a contrast, pacing wise, between the high adrenalin sex scene and the day-after scene.

Dialogue is good but, again, could be better. I’d like to see the scene with Brian and Leilandra done almost completely with dialogue. I think this would help the pacing, too.

I agree it does tend to lag in pace over what I was going for. I can see your point about really trying to speed up that scene for contrast.

Suspending disbelief was not an issue. Your writing style is technically good but what’s missing is a strong voice. (I used to grit my teeth when editors and agents talked about “voice” but I can see how important it is now). I agree that this story would work far, far better in first person, from Brian’s POV.

Oh no, not a voice complaint. Another proponent of 1st person, argh. I definately see where you are all coming from. I think the narrative voice needs to be stronger and more distinct, I'd still rather do that from a 3rd person limited perspective.

Plot is good. No problem there except a few niggly details. But plot is so easy to fix and, when writing a novel, I usually don’t sweat it too much until the first draft is complete. Lots of questions unanswered but I would expect that in chapter four of a novel. LOL. One plot point that really jumped out at me, though, was the conversation with Brian’s dad. Again, this felt too easy and also inconsistent. There’s no explanation for why this thing is helping him. Or, if there is a reason, it needs to be spelled out more clearly.

That scene is a real conundrum for me. Their is a reason, a very definate one but I don't want to do more than hint at it for the reader. Alot of the "why" questions are being left unanswered on purpose and I hope it's not too confusing to people. Subtle hints are implanted in their conversation which foreshadow later events.

First – you have got to get rid of your clichés! “Vice-like grip”, “that fateful morning”, “his legs felt like lead”, “paralyzed with fear”, etc, etc. You must find new, fresh ways to tell a story otherwise it is not your story. Your writing is better than that.

I know I do that too often, I'll see what I can do to fix that. That's an editing step I need to do.

Second – do not tell me the obvious. How else would he see her except with his own eyes? (1st sentence, 1st page). He’s weeping from “loss and despair”? Really? I’d never have guessed. (I’m such a smart ass, feel free to burn me in effigy). There are other examples but I think you get the idea.

Yeah. You are a smart ass but I get the point.

Third – watch “soft” words. “Seemingly”, “perhaps”, “almost”, etc, these words weaken your idea. Take a stand. It is or it is not, there is no “seems”. (Thank you master Yoda). Yes, they can be used but try to limit them to character’s dialogue or thought as much as possible.

I notice even in my responses I do that. Something to work on.

Fourth – When Brian is alone, or is the only male, you don’t need to use his name so much. I felt over-Brianed much of the time. Also, if he is alone, you can have him thinking without letting us know it is him doing the thinking. To this end, I would use single quotation marks or italics to denote thought. This will do wonders for trimming the excess wordage and speeding the pace.

I need to do a much better job of using Brian's thoughts overall through the story. It's not one of my strong suits and a skill I need to hone.

Without having read the first three chapters, but based on Penelope’s comments and your own summaries, I would say the novel should start with Chapter two. You want to have your inciting event as close to the beginning as possible – preferably in the first five pages, ideally on the first page, (referring to Word pages, not Lit pages).

Not sure I want to completely axe the first chapter, but I've already halved it in recent edits and will do more given the crap I've gotten for the slow start.

I think you have lots to work with here, keep going. If you have some free time, find yourself a copy of “The First Five Pages” by Noah Lukeman. A fantastic editor recommended this book to me, a few years back, and I got tons out of it.


Thanks for the detailed critique and reading suggestion. You've given me lots to think about and work on.

 

[Keroin]

Hi Keroin,

Thanks for taking time to read and comment on my story.

Like I mentioned to Penelope, Brian was my attempt to create a character that everyone could relate to and I think he lost that individuality somewhere along the line. He is too nice and ordinary and a little dull.

I really enjoy writing Misty. She's a fun gal to get inside her head. Their meeting doesn't have much suspense to it, so I agree that could be improved. I was hoping just the fact that Brian met another person and her personality would carry the scene but perhaps not.

Not sure I want to completely axe the first chapter, but I've already halved it in recent edits and will do more given the crap I've gotten for the slow start.

You are very welcome.

Regarding Brian, I think everyone can relate to at least part of any well-drawn character. I'm thinking now of Thank You for Smoking, where the protag is absolutely despicable in every respect,*except* we are shown how much he loves his son and we melt. He's a character we should hate but we don't. All we need is one likable quality, that's it. Bravery, loyalty, humour, whatever. In fact, I think readers enjoy flawed heroes. I do.

As for the Misty-Brian scene, this reminds me of a quote from JK Rowling, (can't remember the exact words, sorry), "Chase your heroes up a tree...then throw rocks at them." Something like that. In other words, as you write, keep asking "How can I make things harder for my protagonist?" Know, clearly, what he/she wants and do everything in your power to keep him/her from getting it.

Beginning? Get to the inciting event as soon as possible. Always, always, always.

Yep, I'm a smart ass but I have a lot of mangoes. You're a good sport!

Cheers,
K

 

[Penelope Street]

Brian was my attempt to create a character that everyone could relate to and I think he lost that individuality somewhere along the line. He is too nice and ordinary and a little dull.

If the story in intriguing, with a situation that's easy to understand, a shallow character can work for me. By that I mean, if an author presents their protagonist in situations that I can relate to, I tend to begin to identify with even the vaguest characters. Once I've done this, I start to imagine they are much like me- so they get sort of a pseudo-depth, if that makes sense. That's why I didn't think it was necessarily a major issue if Brian is 'ordinary'.

 

[ellabee]

Thanks for taking time to read my story. I can't really expect you to read the entire thing since it is quite long.

Okay, you know how I promised I'd read the whole thing? I don't have time, so I won't get to it before your discussion is spent. But I do promise I'll get to it eventually, after this semester ends! Perhaps a quick PM to give you some thoughts?

<3 Ella

 

[loganforester]

You are very welcome.

Regarding Brian, I think everyone can relate to at least part of any well-drawn character. I'm thinking now of Thank You for Smoking, where the protag is absolutely despicable in every respect,*except* we are shown how much he loves his son and we melt. He's a character we should hate but we don't. All we need is one likable quality, that's it. Bravery, loyalty, humour, whatever. In fact, I think readers enjoy flawed heroes. I do.

As for the Misty-Brian scene, this reminds me of a quote from JK Rowling, (can't remember the exact words, sorry), "Chase your heroes up a tree...then throw rocks at them." Something like that. In other words, as you write, keep asking "How can I make things harder for my protagonist?" Know, clearly, what he/she wants and do everything in your power to keep him/her from getting it.

Beginning? Get to the inciting event as soon as possible. Always, always, always.

Yep, I'm a smart ass but I have a lot of mangoes. You're a good sport!

Cheers,
K

Yeah I think just giving him a little more depth would help make him more interesting and easier for people to identify with. I get what you're saying about having flawed characters with a few redeeming virtues. My problem is he's generally a good guy easy to get along with but has a few less than savory things about his character. I need to accentuate those further.

Alright I'll make their meeting a little more memorable from a plot standpoint. I'm sure their are enough things that could be happening at the time to spice it up a bit.

Yeah, my inciting event happens not til the 2nd chapter and that needs to be fixed. I'll have to move it forward and show a bit of the earlier in flashback a couple chapters in.

Thanks again, smartass.

 

[loganforester]

If the story in intriguing, with a situation that's easy to understand, a shallow character can work for me. By that I mean, if an author presents their protagonist in situations that I can relate to, I tend to begin to identify with even the vaguest characters. Once I've done this, I start to imagine they are much like me- so they get sort of a pseudo-depth, if that makes sense. That's why I didn't think it was necessarily a major issue if Brian is 'ordinary'.

Yeah he is ordinary, but I think if he had just one prominent feature he might make readers relate and remember him more than they do. I am counting on his plight garnering attention and sympathy from readers, since it's easy to imagine it happening to anyone.

 

[loganforester]

Okay, you know how I promised I'd read the whole thing? I don't have time, so I won't get to it before your discussion is spent. But I do promise I'll get to it eventually, after this semester ends! Perhaps a quick PM to give you some thoughts?

<3 Ella

That's fine. I certainly don't expewct you to read it if you don't have time. If you get the chance eventually I'll be more than happy to hear any additional comments on it. I'm always open to feedback from people on anything I write. Thanks for your help.

 

[PrincessErin]

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[PrincessErin]

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[loganforester]

1) Character Development I really like Brian alot because he is so normal and every day. You created a character that everyone can relate to which helps the story move along. Misty is intriguing and I want to know more about her.

The everyman type character is what my original goal was. I think I achieved that well enough, perhaps too well from what I'm seeing. Misty is one character that I expect the audience will love and she's very much the opposite to Brian.


2) Writing style I found chapter 3 to be a little too detailed and slow but overall no concerns. There is more description and internal dialogue but that moves the story along just as wel.

Chapter 3 was the least detail in terms of actual plot movement, so I can see why it seemed slower for sure.

3) Plotting By the end of chapter 4 I have a good idea of what is happening but at the same time I am confused and want to read more. This is a good thing.

I expect the reader to be curious and a little confused so it seems I've achieved that goal.

4) Ending I didn't find anything wrong with the ending since it's mainly a cliffhanger until chapter 5.

More or less that was the plan. Give the reader a taste of a new major character and then leave them hanging more or less.

Thanks for all your feedback Erin and your consistent support through comments on my chapters. Very much appreciated.