Story Discussion: 7/7/10, "Erotic Transference" by Cold_Eyes

[Cold_Eyes]

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=482981

I chose this story because I'm wondering if it's worth continuing. I haven't done any sequels yet, but I've had some good ideas where this one might go. It's also received no comments and much fewer votes than any of my other stories.

While the story has a lot of sexual content, I will warn you that it's short on actual sex. It mostly deals with the niche/fetish of CFNM (clothed female nude male). A recurring scene on a number of CFNM sites is that of the nude male model being checked out by the female artists painting him. One thing I like to do a lot is to write around scenes like this -- that is, try to flesh out such a scene by adding more complex characters and plot. And, like my other stories, I tried to make it whimsical yet plausible.

I wanted the main character to be wimpy without seeming wimpy. Did the first person perspective made him more realistic? I also wrote in present tense (which I haven't used before), so I hope it wasn't too clunky. I'm unsure why I chose to do it, it just felt right for the story when I was writing it for some reason? Should I drop it if I write a sequel? And, is it worth a sequel?

 

[PacoFear]

Howdy Cold,

Hopefully I'll be the dam breaker and everyone else will rush in.

Overall I thought Transference was a nifty little character piece and far from the usual fare here on Lit. You've put some thought into this thing and I think it shows.

Now for the critique...

This piece just didn't grab me. Honestly, if it weren't the subject of a Circle, I'd have clicked away. The opening line of dialogue was fine, but, for me, trouble set in at paragraph two:

I had looked forward to this moment and, at the same time, dreaded it for so long. Crimson shades run up my neck and I have no way of keeping them from going further. This always happens. And it only makes my embarrassment worse.

I think the first sentence would have played better at the end of the paragraph. The present tense can reel in a reader and with the second sentence leading, you've got a better shot at it. Also, I'd tweak the second sentence a smidge insofar as the narrator wouldn't be able to see his own neck. While we're at it, it's also a good place to slip an early, quick signal to orient the reader on who is narrating. Okay, that was a tone 'o suggestions for just one paragraph but the early parts of a story are the most critical. Basically, I'm suggesting a new second paragraph along these lines:

Her question sends an awkward heat creeping up my neck that I recognize as a blush. One I'll be powerless to stop. This always happens. And it only makes my embarrassment worse. Not surprising really, I had been looking forward to this talk for so long while dreading it at the same time.

Shortly thereafter, there was a three paragraph sequence that shook me out of my reader mode a little:

How about you, Nell? But I can never tell you that.

Nell's skirt is rather short today and it's riding up her crossed legs. It's hard for me to keep my eyes from running over the length of each one. But that's not why I love her.

Doctor Nell Calkins, for the last six months, I've poured my soul out in this room, your office. I've divulged every secret, no matter how deep it was buried. I've revealed every foible, no matter how shameful. You know more about me than anyone else in this world. How could I not love you?


The first paragraph, starting "How about you..." is a bit of internal dialogue. It might help if you set it off in italics to hint as much to the reader. The next paragraph reverts to the narrator's POV, but then it's back, at the third paragraph, to more internal dialogue which, again, I recommend italicizing.

Internal dialogue: I'm fond of it and use it in my own stuff. Mostly because I write in past tense (kudos to you for braving present ) and some internal dialgue lets me cheat for a bit of present tense immediacy when I need it, e.g., a character's visceral reaction to something.

In a present tense story like yours, do you really need it? I'm thinking that, without too much tweaking, you could get to the same place without using the internal dialogue.

So since I already said I like internal dialogue, why am I steering you away from it? IMHO, it's one of those in for a penny, in for a pound things. If you start using it early, you need to scatter more of it through the story for the sake of having a semi-consistent narrative style. Here, you use it early and twice then drop it. Bottom line: use it more or use it less.

Moving on, I'm a sucker for dialogue play so the "...you need some pussy" bit made me chuckle. Thumbs up there.

Generally I think you did an admirable job developing your passive/hesitant narrator character. One paragraph went awry for me though:

As usual, Nell explains me better than I can. I let out a sigh, my eyes wandering back to her legs while she scribbles. If Nell asked if she could kiss me, I would let her. She's the only woman I would let see me naked, the only woman I would let make love to me. Bijou, perhaps, but she is only nineteen. Still a girl, not a woman.


First, I lurv-lurv the first and second sentences! The ones that follow, however, get increasing improbable for me in terms of a viable male character. It overshoots wimpy and lands deep into seriously submissive territory with the plethora of "letting." How about:

As usual, Neil explains me better than I can. I let out a sigh, my eyes wandering back to her legs while she scribbles, and my head starts running off again. What if Nell were to ask me, right now, to kiss her? For her, I might actually be that brave. In fact, she might be the only woman I'm not terrified at the prospect of being naked in front of. Or making love to. Well, aside from Bijou, but she's only nineteen -- a girl, not a woman.

Yes yes, the preposition-at-the-end-of-the-sentence police may come to knock on my door, but screw 'em. I think it reads okay and conveys the passive/hesitant type of character you were shooting for.

I'll punch out here and let others chime in. In the meantime, don't feel too bad about the rating/comment shortage. As you said, your piece was light on the nooky so some of your readers may have been, erm, "frustrated" and moved onto another story without pausing to reward your efforts. Also, while E/V isn't my bag, my general Lit. sense is that the E/V readership may be looking for more traditional "peeking in the window"- or "walking topless through the mall"-type fare. Serving fudge ripple to folks looking for chocolate leads to dipped ratings/comments.

Keep up the nifty work,

-PF

 

[trieste]

Hi Cold Eyes,

I'm still pretty new around here, but figured I'd give you my thoughts.

First, I will say that I really wasn't expecting to like this, but I did. Quite a bit, actually, although maybe not for the reasons your average Lit reader would like something. I really enjoyed your style--the lean, economical sentences. The way you stay out of your own way. Up until page two, I almost felt like I'd picked up an issue of "American Short Fiction" or something--both style and subject made me think of that, for whatever reason. That's a compliment .

Not sure why the hesitation about present tense, because I felt it worked here. Present tense makes the narrative read less predetermined, and with a protagonist so odd and unpredictable, I think that touch of uncertainty is good.

Yeah, yeah--so the sex comes late and it's a bit nontraditional. You will probably lose readers and votes as a result. I wouldn't worry. There's not a thing in the world you can write that won't turn some group of readers off. Figure out who you want to write to--people who appreciate a well-crafted plot and characters, people who want stroke stories chock full of sex, whatever--it doesn't really matter. Just figure it out and then write to them.

This is not a stroke piece, but honestly . . . something about the intimacy, and your narrator's panic and fear . . . it drew me in anyway. Somehow--and I wish I could give you more specifics, but I'm not quite sure--somehow you make a very screwed up and unususal dude compelling. For me, anyway. I believed and I sympathized, even if I didn't understand his nuerosis.

As for criticisms, my biggest ones come in regards to plot towards the end, and I think I know why you did what you did, but it still took me out of the moment a bit. The two girls in the art class and the art instructor. They rang a bit false to me in what was otherwise, I thought, a very realistic and fleshed-out piece.

What I mean is--you go to quite a bit of trouble to make strange behaviors plausible here and to offer motivations. Your narrator does not behave like your average guy, but the story opens with him in a psychiatrist's office talking about his issues--i.e. he is NOT an average guy. You make some effort to have Nell justify her choices and behavior. However, the two teasing girls just read like a bone you threw to stroke readers--not so much at first, where their teasing was subtle and discreet enough to seem plausible within your world and served a purpose in motivating the narrator, but later, when they are full-out penetrating one another in the classroom? Yeah. Totally read like that.

My problem is in believing that the instructor would allow this blatant sexual display. Nakedness? Sure. A little naughty teasing that the instructor wouldn't notice? No problem. Full-on lesbian porn scene in the middle of a college classroom? Instructor would so be fired if anyone breathed a word later.

Beyond that, though, such behavior makes these two girls unusual and interesting enough in their own right that they draw the reader's eye away from the drama of your protagonist, and you probably don't want to do that. Anyone reading this far into your piece is invested in something other than the slathering sexuality of it (because it isn't slathering)--don't try at this late point to turn it back into stroke.

Overall, however, I really enjoyed this. I'd read more if you wrote more, if that tells you anything. Nice work!

 

[Cold_Eyes]

Thanks, I definitely agree with the suggestions made. If I write more, it'll focus on the main character more intently. I kind of regret submitting it so fast -- I like to leave anything I write sitting around for a while and then go back to edit it later, at least ideally. This was actually something that came to me that I dashed off quickly while I was working on that other huge-ass story (that PF also kindly commented on). I like PF's rewrites, too. The last last paragraph you mentioned was one I had some difficulty with. Honestly, I would go back and click that into the story, but I don't think Lit lets you edit posted stories (unless I'm wrong on that -- still kinda new here).

Also, in regards to votes/score, I wasn't worried about losing it so much as I was surprised by the fact that it received so much less attention than my other submissions. Maybe I have a little more faith in the E&V readers because my highest rated story is in E&V and contains even less sex than this one.

 

[driphoney]

Thanks, I definitely agree with the suggestions made. If I write more, it'll focus on the main character more intently. I kind of regret submitting it so fast -- I like to leave anything I write sitting around for a while and then go back to edit it later, at least ideally. This was actually something that came to me that I dashed off quickly while I was working on that other huge-ass story (that PF also kindly commented on). I like PF's rewrites, too. The last last paragraph you mentioned was one I had some difficulty with. Honestly, I would go back and click that into the story, but I don't think Lit lets you edit posted stories (unless I'm wrong on that -- still kinda new here).

Also, in regards to votes/score, I wasn't worried about losing it so much as I was surprised by the fact that it received so much less attention than my other submissions. Maybe I have a little more faith in the E&V readers because my highest rated story is in E&V and contains even less sex than this one.

You can always go back and resubmit a story. I'll go dig up Darkniciad's perfect explanation on how to do so. I'll edit it into this post.

from Darkniciad on another thread:

As to editing the existing story/chapters
Start a new submission
In "Title" use the same title ( or as much as will fit ) as your original story/chapter + something like *EDIT*
Select the same category, and fill in other fields ( description, keywords ) with placeholders. They don't matter.
Paste/upload the new, edited text
In the "Notes" field, say that this is an edit of an existing submission's story text. It can't hurt to reference the Lit ID# of the story ( the numbers at the end of the url in your browser window when you view the first page of your story ) to avoid any question about what story/chapter you're editing
Preview and submit as you would a new story/chapter

Approval of edits is subject to the same wait time in the queue as for a new story. I have seen edits go through a lot quicker -- and in bulk -- than new stories quite often, though.

 

[PacoFear]

As for criticisms, my biggest ones come in regards to plot towards the end, and I think I know why you did what you did, but it still took me out of the moment a bit. The two girls in the art class and the art instructor. They rang a bit false to me in what was otherwise, I thought, a very realistic and fleshed-out piece.
...
However, the two teasing girls just read like a bone you threw to stroke readers--not so much at first, where their teasing was subtle and discreet enough to seem plausible within your world and served a purpose in motivating the narrator, but later, when they are full-out penetrating one another in the classroom? Yeah. Totally read like that.

I'm with Trieste, here. The mini-orgy that erupted in the art studio was at odds with the rest of the tale. Trieste has put her finger on the element of the scene that tips it over me too - the impromptu lesbians.

It's late and I'm getting punchy but when I re-read your story just now, I heard a Monty Python sound effect followed by the Spanish Inquisition voice over - "Nobody expects the impromptu lesbians. Their chief weapon is surprise..."

If you'd asked me before this, I'd have told you that any story could be improved by the strategic application of a bit of lezzie goodness. I stand corrected. I expect to have my Smut Writer's Guild card revoked for saying so.

-PF

 

[driphoney]

Wow. Am I way over my head making a comment, or what? But I feel badly that your excellent writing hasn't garnered more comments. There was nothing clunky about it. First person did make him more plausible, and combined with present tense, it was fresh and clean in style. The writing became invisible to me as I lived the story. I wish you could bottle that, I'd buy some.

I have to admit that my first problem has nothing to do with your skill. I don't like reading about wimpy men. I like imperfect characters, but I'm not fascinated by what goes on in the head of a wus. Sorry. If you didn't want him to "seem wimpy", you failed. He was quite wimpy. This is a popular concept, apparently, and I have to say, you were dead on, in my opinion.

But, I got with the program and soon I was flowing along with the whole studio scene - then it happened. The requisite lesbian scene. God. What is it with men and lesbian scenes? And, the professor just sits by and allows it? And the other students are just busy painting away undistracted? You did need to create a feeling or situation that heightened his arousal, true, but I'm not sure this was it.

I did, however, really like the sex scene in the locker room. You made it feel very believable. He was a bit more forward with her than I would have thought when she was explaining why she would need to discontinue. But that's such a small thing.

As for whether it's worth continuing on, sure. Why not? However, for me to want to keep reading, I'd want to see him develop, slowly gain confidence. Since that's his "problem", it appears to me (but honestly, I'm ignorant here) that that is what has to be dealt with one way or another. I just happen to like happy endings.

Thanks for sharing.

 

[Cold_Eyes]

Thanks for the help on editing.

PF: I hate you -- you've just ruined every lesbian scene for me, ever.

Re impromptu lesbians (hereafter abbreviated as IL): I kinda threw that in there without thinking too much about it -- like I said in the OP, I wrote it around that scene and deliberate teasing of the male model is pretty much a staple in CFNM-world.

Re IL and professor: I'm not always sure how much I need to explain the logistics of space and time in my stories when it's relevant and I guess I didn't explain it well enough (i.e., I have the layout of a room drawn up in my head and don't describe it enough because it seems obvious to me, but I can't tell how well I'm getting it across to the reader). I imagined the six students split in groups of three: Nell, Bijou, flamboyant guy on one side and IL and jerk-off guy on the other. The prof is walking around giving comments on everyone's painting, so she doesn't see what's going on. The non-lesbian group could be sitting in front of the lesbian group, making it difficult to see. Flamboyant guy might be too involved in painting/checking out the hero, Nell doesn't care, Bijou might be too shy to say something if she saw it, and jerk-off guy obviously sees it. The prof also notices something going on when she walks up to jerk-off boy's easel. Also, I guess the second part of the IL scene seemed too long when I imagined it as happening in about a minute's time or so. Well, make of that what you will.

Re wimpiness: When I said "be wimpy but not seem wimpy" I should have said come across as wimpy but not so much you want to whack him upside the head with a shovel.

Re sequel: DH already hit on the theme of what I would want to go for. I was planning on having it weave back and forth between romance and fetish and develop the characters further as well. Overcoming his problem would be the main thrust of it.

 

[D_K_Moon]

Like Paco, this story didn't catch my interest. It took multiple attempts to read it all the way through.

As to your first question, should you continue it? I don't think any of us can make that call for you. If you write for glory and pats on the back, then probably not. If you're a bit like me, and write just for the love of writing, and you feel something for the characters and the story, then go for it.

I have no idea what the thrill of clothed female, nude male is, so perhaps I missing something in this story.

Although I feel your piece was well written, I found myself not feeling much for Nate or Nell. I neither liked, nor disliked them.

Why was she in his art class watching, that never made much sense to me. And I realize this is erotica, and not real life. But, I had a hard time buying the sexual encounter between Nate and Nell. She seemed so very professional in the first part of the story. Why would she risk her career?

One of the previous commenters mentioned the lesbian encounter in the class. I have to agree with them. It seemed out of place, and you didn't suspend our belief.

Overall, your writing was quite good. Some bits of your story I thought were quite good. I like the idea of him posing nude for the class, and the possibilities.

Thanks for putting your work up for discussion.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Nate's Problem

Haven't looked in here in a long time. But I'm in a critiquing mood...

You had me at the, "You need some pussy" line. That was clever and made me smile.

My main concern with this story is understanding the exact nature of Nate's problem and how it affects him. Is he afraid of people seeing him nude, or of them seeing his genitals, or his erection, or what? He talks like he's afraid of being nude, but apparently he had no trouble exposed his chest and legs at the beach, so he must be afraid of exposing his package, and yet he never says that.

That doesn't seem right. Someone suffering from such a seriously inconveniencing disability as this would certainly know the particulars of his problem and probably be somewhat obsessed with them. The problem would probably manifest in other aspects of his life and behavior too. He might wonder that Nell has no problem is showing so much leg in her office (it might make him nervous), and his problem with his last partner would probably not involve her unbuttoning his shirt (again, he was okay being bare-chested at the beach), but his fear of her getting too close to his pants.

He's got a neurosis, and neurotic people are, well, neurotic.

But Nate seems like a very nice, very normal and likeable young guy to whom you've tacked on this obscure and confusing obsession about not taking his clothes off, simply so you can later take his clothes off. His malady doesn't seem consistent with the rest of his personality and so it doesn't ring true, and so I didn't find him or his disorder very believable. And because I'm not clear on just what he's afraid of, a lot of the erotic heat in the painting class scene was probably lost on me.

You did do a fine job of presenting a wimpy guy who's not really a wimp though. But basically what you did (as I mentioned) was create a nice, normal guy, and just stick this fear on him. It doesn't work like that if you want believable characters. Nate is almost certainly a submissive. His problem, despite whatever he and Nell think it is, is not that he's afraid of being naked, but that he needs someone else to take his clothes off for him. You notice that when the chips are down--when he's finally made to undress in Nell's office and before the class--he doesn't have much of a problem with it. He doesn't panic, or start hyperventilating, or even get especially anxious. He doesn't do much of anything but blush a little. So where's the problem?

My own theory of erotica is that all the sexy stuff happens in the head. What people do in our stories are basically expressions of the things they feel, which is where the true heat lies. The scene where Nell beats him off is hot because it expresses Nate's passivity and sexual innocence, which is a subject of dirty fascination to us all. The girls in class playing with each other is an expression of Nate's latent sexual power to arouse, another thing we all find erotically fascinating. (In fact, I should mention that his complaint seems to oscillate between feelings of juvenile inferiority and feelings of megalomania that the sight of his junk is just too arousing for people to stand.)

But anyhow, the point I was trying to make is, the more thoroughly and truthfully you can get into a character's head and tease apart their emotions and let us feel them, the hotter your story's going to be. I just don't think you gave Nate and his affliction enough thought to accomplish that, and so the story's kind of emotionally unfocused and diffuse.


I was excited about this story because I get off on the Clothed Male Naked Female fantasy myself. In fact, in Second Life I frequent a sim called the CMNF Corporation, where secretaries and other female employees are routinely stripped and sexually used by clothed executives, and judging by the number of other players on the sim, it's a pretty popular fantasy among both men and women. But I know how that fantasy works for me. It involves the ritualized display of power and control as expressed though clothes, a kind of D/s thing. It's kind of different for the women there. Being made to disrobe certainly has its submissive elements, but it's also paradoxically an expression of a woman's sexual power that she'd be desired so strongly that a man would symbolically rip her clothes off. There are elements of shame play involved as well for women, so that the whole thing cooks up into a pretty rich and intensely erotic brew.

But Nate's story seems to involve some totally different approach to the eroticism of the clothed/naked fantasy, and I wish you could have been more specific about what that was. There's obviously something you yourself find compelling or fascinating about it (I don't care what some people say, we're all involved in the fantasies we write about) and I would love to know what that is. I don't think you accomplished that here. I didn't feel much from Nate.

Technically/mechanically I think the story's fine. The use of first person is perfect for a story like this, where you have to explain a lot of internal feelings. But in first person the plausibility and genuineness of the narrator's feelings are absolutely critical. I thought the opening scene was very effective in introducing the situation and the characters, and the technique of extended dialog worked very well. The post-script ending was wonderful too. Very canny, very writerly, and nicely bittersweet.

I would have liked to see a little more externality, a little more sense of place and atmosphere That always gives depth and richness to a story, as well as provide opportunities for a little character development as we show our character's world. But that's just me. I'm very big on sense of place.

You're an excellent writer and it's a very good story. I might just be dense in not quite understanding the erotic situation, but I think you could do better. I think you need to think your characters through a bit more thoroughly and really figure out what their issues are and how they'd affect their lives. Feel what they feel and then report that back to us. That's all you can ask of any author.

Ooh, wait! One more little bitch. The name of the story is "Erotic Transference," but that's not actually what the story's about. The story's about Nate's problem. I think it needs a more appropriate title. (I know-- I suck at titles too.)

------------

Having read the other comments: I'm in agreement with most of the comments made. Paco's right: some of those paragraphs are organized a little oddly, but that stuff can be fixed in edit.

The lesbian scene was gratuitous, but I don't mind it's gratuitousness as much as I don't like the way it changes the whole focus of the story. I thought we were dealing with Nate's particular fetish (a problem can be a fetish too, I suppose), but suddenly we're in a nude art class orgy. Why?? If there was supposed to be some eroticism in everyone's stripping, I totally missed it.

 

[Keroin]

I haven't posted here in a while either but after a brief glance at your story I decided I'd make some time.

Since I concur with most of the other comments here, I won't waste time re-hashing them. I will say that your story seems to be two different types of stories. One is erotic fantasy (art school orgy) and one is real life erotica (locker room sex therapy with complications), so I think you need to choose which direction you want to take. I vote for the latter, by the way.

The quality of your writing is much higher than the material of this particular story. I agree that you need to dig deeper into these characters. Once you do, I think you'll find the meat (no pun intended) that is hinted at but for the most part missing from this story.

That said, I'm always thrilled when I come across quality writing on this site! Thanks for making my day.

I know many people dislike present tense, I'm not one of them...when it's done well and the tone of the story suits it. (I have a few present tense stories on Lit). Just make sure it's consistent. For example, near the end you have this sentence:

"Nate!" She broke my hold and pushed me back.

Which should be:

"Nate!" She breaks my hold and pushes me back.

I didn't find Nate too wimpy, what he lacked, for me, was wholeness. I didn't get a sense of him as a person interacting in a wider world. Is he a student? How old is he? Does he have a job? What has brought him to therapy? (That last question is really important to me).

As he's written, he feels more like a device than a flesh and blood character.

I have a few nit picky details. First, there's far too much coincidence in the connection between Nell and Bijou. His psychiatrist just happens to know the girl Nate is crushing on? Just happens to be in her art class and just happens to have a painting of her in her office? This pulled me out of the story instantly.

And I don't mind a scene opening with dialogue (though I know many editors frown on it) but if you do that make sure you very quickly establish where the scene is happening and who is speaking. In your case, that could be easily done in the second paragraph. As it stands, the opening dialogue is generic and left me wondering. Orient your reader as soon as possible.

One last nit pick, and this relates to first person:

Crimson shades run up my neck and I have no way of keeping them from going further.

How does Nate know crimson shades are running up his neck? Can he see them? If so, you need to tell me that, if not, then Nate should 'feel' he is blushing or something similar.

You are a skilled writer so I would give this one another go, following Dr M's advice and finding what it is about the situation that makes it erotic.

Thanks so much for sharing with us!

K

 

[Cold_Eyes]

Thanks for the comments.

Your take on it is very nuanced, Dr. M. Probably even more so than mine. I am curious, though, as to why you believe I presented the clothed/naked fantasy differently than normal. Like you, I enjoy CMNF as well. I think the D/s angle plays into both sides. You are right about Nate needing someone to take his clothes off for him (literally and figuratively) and Nell hints at that point in their session. He seems to see nudity/sex in this D/s light and is only willing to make himself vulnerable, i.e., play submissive, to certain women.

K, I hoped to drop in background through small details to avoid info dumps and irrelevant detail. E.g., he is in therapy because of his anxiety problem (he is on medication for this), and he hints at being a student when he mentions his other art classes. I should have put more detail in, but I think the way the character was so self-contained distracted me from that.

 

[Keroin]

Thanks for the comments.

K, I hoped to drop in background through small details to avoid info dumps and irrelevant detail. E.g., he is in therapy because of his anxiety problem (he is on medication for this), and he hints at being a student when he mentions his other art classes. I should have put more detail in, but I think the way the character was so self-contained distracted me from that.

You're welcome.

Good for you for resisting the info dump, however you just didn't give me enough info, dump or not. "Art class" could be a local community class or a highschool class or any number of classes. "She's in my art history class" or something more specfic might tell me a bit more. Details help.

Also, is his therapist in school too? If not, why is she in Bijou's art class?

Confusion!

But please don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed your writing. Plot is easily fixed, writing skill is significantly more difficult to remedy.

ETA: Also, I understood that he was in therapy for anxiety what I meant was what kind of incident might have prompted him to seek therapy? It seems he's had this problem for a long time, I want some sort of clue about what could have possibly pushed him to seek therapy for it. Was it related to sex?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Thanks for the comments.

Your take on it is very nuanced, Dr. M. Probably even more so than mine. I am curious, though, as to why you believe I presented the clothed/naked fantasy differently than normal. Like you, I enjoy CMNF as well. I think the D/s angle plays into both sides. You are right about Nate needing someone to take his clothes off for him (literally and figuratively) and Nell hints at that point in their session. He seems to see nudity/sex in this D/s light and is only willing to make himself vulnerable, i.e., play submissive, to certain women.

Well, I think the usual Clothed Male/Naked Female fantasy is pretty blatantly D/s, an expression of the man's power over the woman, and it's so ubiquitous that most of the time I don't think we even notice it. The first thing a male dom does with a sub (typically) is make her kneel. The second thing is have her strip. It's almost like standard operating procedure.

But I think the kind of clothesplay you deal with in this story is different from standard D/s in that the object doesn't seem to be control, but exposure. The fantasy is not about being dominated as much as it's about being revealed. And the fantasy of having one's sexual nature exposed is a very "female" fantasy.

Clothes are heavily symbolic. They're our refuge and our shield, and they're our expression of how we wish to be perceived. Symbolically they're our social persona, and I think this is especially true for women. (We're talking about clothed male/naked female here. I'll get to the Clothed Female/Naked male in a minute.) The erotic excitement for the woman in this fantasy, besides the obvious one of being controlled, is that she's forced to expose herself as a sexual being while avoiding any responsibility for that display.

That's a pretty common theme in female erotica, the idea of a woman's being forced to display her sexual side while being absolved of responsibility for it, and I think it reflects the old madonna/whore dilemma so many women struggle with: she wants to be sexual, but she doesn't want to be seen as a whore. Solution: she's forced into sexuality. She's forced to expose herself. I think that's a big part of the appeal behind so many female rape fantasies and fantasies of non-consensual sex too.

Typically (or maybe I should say, "Stereotypically", because I'm really dealing with male/female stereotypes here. I really don't think this stuff is necessarily true in real life) , a woman feels her erotic power not in her ability to seduce men, but in her ability to make them seduce her, her ability to incite lust; her desirability. This is another manifestation of that guilt-avoidance thing,a way to initiate sex without initiating it, and I think it's also at work in the CM/NF fantasy. She's so sexy that she makes him force her to strip.

The result of all this is that the emotions she feels in the CMNF fantasy are usually a mixture of shame and excitement, which is a very potent brew (I once heard "shame" defined as what we feel when our private desires are made public. That seems pretty accurate to me.) It's not just sex that's at stake here, but her very identity and self-image, as well as her erotic power.

That's the Clothed Male/Naked Female fantasy. For Clothed Female/Naked male, things seem to work a little differently.

For one thing, I think it' a lot more D/s. Because the cliche gender roles are reversed, it stands out, and the control issue immediately leaps to the fore. Men usually don't have this female ambiguity about displaying their body's sexual nature (men aren't worried abut appearing sexual. They're worried about appearing sexually inadequate), and so exposure's not that big a deal. The fantasy's therefore not about exposure, it's about control. It's classic D/s.

You seem to have Nate feeling what the sub feels in the Clothed Male/Naked female version. He's never really clear about what his problem is when it comes to taking off his clothes, but it seems to be related to shame about his body's sexuality. And what happens in the art class when he finally does undress shows us just how erotically powerful his nakedness is. His subbiness, if it's there, is played down. He's not so submissive as he is passive, and his lack of desire one way or the other makes him seem a bit cold and distant.

I'd like to know more about what he feels when he's forced to strip. Is he totally embarrassed, or excited, or resentful, or grateful, or what? I'd like to see him a little more aggressive (yes, subs can be aggressive in going after what they want), a little more of a participant in what happens to him and less of a bystander.

But as to other takes on the CF/NM fantasy, we've already described 2, the exposure angle and the submissive angle. It could also be played as a fantasy of male humiliation, which a lot of men apparently seem to enjoy, and you touch on that with the girls' attempts to get him aroused in art class--the male's helplessness in the face of female desirablity. It could also be a fantasy of male triumph, in which overcoming his reluctance to strip suddenly liberates him and turns Nate into some kind of macho stud.

Anyhow, popular fantasies are usually popular because they engage us on several levels, and we all have a slightly different take on them. It's fun to see how other people interpret them.

 

[Keroin]

Well, I think the...

This was very interesting, thank you.

I remember hearing somewhere, years ago, that when prisoners were being interrogated and their captors wanted to break them down psychologically, they employed different "stripping" strategies for men and women. Women would be made to remove their own clothes, while men would have the clothes forcefully removed from their body. I wonder if this ties in with what you've written about here?

Interesting.

 

[nerk]

Lots to say, and a disorganized brain to say it with.

First of all, this story passed the first test of erotica: reading it turned me on. It seems silly to say it, but hey, I read erotic fiction for an erotic experience, and this story delivers. It explores this young man's character and his sexual neurosis, and the beginning of his conquest of that neurosis. The character, the pacing, the development of the story all work well, and your style is engaging and generally invisible. There are a few spots that have been pointed out where it slips, but few enough that they were easily forgiven and forgotten as I read on in the story. Most of them have been mentioned, but I will point out one other that struck me as I read and is an easy, easy fix.

He is undressing Nell in the locker room: "While I anguish over the situation, my hands subconsciously pull the zipper tab down." I think the word you want is agonize. It's a ridiculously nit-picky thing to point out, but it stood out to me, because otherwise the story reads very smoothly, style-wise.

As to the substance of the story, I think my largest question is re: Bijou. Even the impromptu lesbians (who I agree, stand out as a porn-reality scene in a piece that otherwise doesn't feel like porn) seem more well-rounded than she does. He likes her, and she is shy too. That's what we know about her. If you rewrote this, I'd like to see her turned into a character, or cut altogether.

For the most part the psychiatrist scene reads as believable, and you use it very well to give necessary exposition about our boy and his problems. It also works as a great tease, between the beach and the shirt scenes we get a pretty good understanding of the problem. The shrink flashing her panties should strain credulity, but for me, at least, it was easy to accept. Less so, the whipping out of Nell's painting. Obviously, she is losing her professional detachment with this patient, but that seemed really clunky to me. Can she get him to the art class without showing her (bad) art?

The art class scene was also really nicely done, though I do agree that his reactions seem much less intense than they should be. I can accept that because of his arousal and his fascination with his psychiatrist, he would stay despite his fear, but it's almost as though you are shy about depicting his fear. Let us see and feel him sweating it a little more.

The locker room scene I have doubts about. First, I question the ease with which he undresses her. It struck me as out of keeping with his fear and the awe he seemed to have for her in the earlier scene. Second, the kiss off. The story flowed smoothly and quickly up to that point, and then it bogged down. It is probably realistic for her to pretty much say everything twice, and for him to debate and fuss, but sometimes realism is a mistake. Break ups (or whatever you call this) tend to be excruciating and tedious in reality, but this reader, at least, wants to identify and sympathize with his suffering, not experience it myself. I think if you give us enough to characterize the argument without the full blow-by-blow, you can trim it down and keep the pacing.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

God knows I've already spilled enough electronic ink on this story, but Nerk's post reminded me of something else I wanted to say.

If a story's basically about conflict, you have to wonder if Nate's internal conflict is played up enough. Sure, he tells us about his problem, and he tells Nell, but does he really show it in his behavior? Is it really something he struggles with?

It's odious to tell someone how you would have written their story, but I can't help but think that if I were attempting something like this, I would have made Nate angrier and more resentful. I say this because I think (A) Nate wants sex and desires it, but (B) he fears the nudity requisite for sex, probably because he fears ridicule or humiliation. So he's conflicted, and the conflict would breed resentment and defensiveness.

He'd probably look at his attraction to Nell as a threat then, at least as much as an opportunity, which would explain the fact that he's been seeing her for a while now without ever exploring his main complaint. I could see him coming in for session and lying on the couch (probably not by choice), and instinctively covering his groin with a pillow or magazine to hide himself from Nell, who excites him. She's no fool, though, and she's going to notice it, and in this session she confronts him with it, coaxing and reassuring him until he removes the pillow.

From there it's just a short jump to her having him undress all the way in her office, maybe closing all the blinds first on the pretext of privacy, but in effect creating a very private and intimate atmosphere. The experience of making him undress has to be a pretty erotic one for Nell, and if she hasn't counter-transferred by now, this is certainly going to push her over the edge. I could see her then suggesting that Nate model nude for her life-drawing class, and assuring him that she'll be there for moral support.

The rest of the story would happen as written, but in this way you could do away with Bijou altogether and the improbability of Nell being in a class with her, and highlight Nate's internal conflict and the erotic tension it causes.

I don't know though. I don't know if this is the story you want to have written, but it's another way of going, and one that substitutes a believable internal conflict for the rather improbable string of external events that lands Nate and Nell in the same nude drawing class. I think it also plays off a common fear men often have, and makes Nate's dilemma (and therefore Nate himself) more believable.

 

[nerk]

This was very interesting, thank you.

I remember hearing somewhere, years ago, that when prisoners were being interrogated and their captors wanted to break them down psychologically, they employed different "stripping" strategies for men and women. Women would be made to remove their own clothes, while men would have the clothes forcefully removed from their body. I wonder if this ties in with what you've written about here?

Interesting.

I would guess that the different treatment of prisoners is based on humiliation. Men's pride and sense of power tends to be more involved with physical strength, so having their clothes ripped off of them is not just undressing them, but also reminding them of their physical helplessness and weakness, a cruel blow to their sense of self. Women tend to be less concerned with their physical strength as their strength of will, so forcing them to strip symbolizes the failure of their will to resist. Both of these are wildly over-generalized, but I don't think people who develop psychological torture techniques are very PC either.

Of course, that is a generalization too.

I also wanted to weigh in on the good Doctor's discussion of CFNM/CMNF fantasies. First, let me say that I think everything that you said about those sorts of fantasies, re: exposure, power, D/S etc is pretty much true. That said, I have a different take on this story. I think the clothed/naked fantasy is a fairly mild flavor of D/S, and is essentially about power exchange. The naked party is made available to satisfy the whims of the clothed, but typically it is consensual and often enthusiastically so.

I think the nakedness in this story is more concerned with a non-DS stripe of exhibitionism, which looks very similar on the surface. The D/S fantasy revolves around power and vulnerability, but I think Nate's exhibitionism is much more about plain old, vanilla attention. Yes, Nell exerts influence on Nate, and there certainly is a power dynamic in their relationship, but not in a particularly D/S fashion. She exerts control much more the way you would expect to find in an older/younger fantasy, where she takes the lead because of her experience, not because Nate is particularly submissive. Nate gets turned on by having his naughty bits exposed and feels tremendous shame about it. I don't think this is about embracing the sexy DS humiliation that turns him on. I think it is about getting over his shame that exposing himself turns him on. Nell helps him, not as a Domme but as a therapist.