Story Discussion: 3 February 2012. "Kinky Coffee" by MrMax59

[MrMax59]

Hi, and welcome to the discussion thread for my story "Kinky Coffee."

This story is in the BDSM category and describes how the female character Dani is introduced gradually to BDSM via non-consensual sex driven by a blackmail scenario. It is entirely a heterosexual story except for a brief portion of a group scene early in the story.

This story is stand-alone and at this time I'm not planning any followup stories from this world.

The story is 4 Lit pages (over 14,000 words).

 

[MrMax59]

Link to "Kinky Coffee"

The story is Kinky Coffee and is in the BDSM category.

It can also be found via the member page link below.

 

[MrMax59]

Conclusion and questions

My goals for this piece were in three areas:

1. Characters - Dani is based loosely on a Lit' reader who described herself to me and who I used as the model for her appearance. Some fragments of her behavior and sexual interests remain with Dani but most of her attitude and reactions are my own invention.
2. Voice - I consciously wrote this to be entirely from Dani's viewpoint. Jim is only described via his actions and words and we don't see what his thoughts are except through Dani's eyes.
3. Realism - I wanted there to be a thread of realism - or let's say 'Lit-level' realism to this story. I'm not claiming that anyone in real life would behave in this exact fashion but I hope it's real enough to allow suspension of disbelief so the reader can immerse themselves in the story and enjoy it fully.

As most authors would be, I'm very proud of this effort and feel that I was able to execute on my goals. And after all, my baby is the prettiest one of all

But more seriously, I'm sure I could have executed better on my goals, and I'm sure I overlooked other areas where I could have expressed this world and its characters more fully or in a more effective way.

I'm not particularly sensitive so while I'm not asking for abusive feedback I'd ask you not to pull punches where I can learn something from you.

Finally, for those with an interest or background in BDSM I did knowingly violate two principles. Spoilers here, so if you'd rather read first, stop here!

First, I had Jim leave Dani bound. She was depicted as bound in a way where she could (and did) free herself but it did happen. I used this action on Jims part to clearly establish his dominance over Dani in both a physical way (the binding) and emotionally (his abandonment of her in a compromising position). Note that I'm not advocating this behavior within BDSM scenes, but it worked for what I wanted my characters to go through.

Second, at the end of the story it comes out that Jim based his blackmail of Dani on a lie. He confesses his lie, and shows remorse for his choices, but nevertheless her submission was achieved through deception. I used this to provide a clear mechanism for Dani to make a real choice about her future, and have that choice represented to her not just as a "I destroyed my evidence" moment, but to have Dani realize she never asked for proof of the evidence in the first place.

So I did consciously use these to make specific points in the story, they aren't included as unnecessary scenes, but I'd like to validate that they made their point and that they did so without losing the realism that I was striving for.

Thanks in advance for your attention and feedback,

Marty

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Hello, and welcome to the SDC. You have done a nice job setting up the discussion thread for your story, but you left out one thing--you haven't posed any questions to the forum. It may seem like there are a lot of hoops to jump through just to get your story reviewed, but without a question or two or five, there's no direction for the discussion to take. I'm going read through it, and when you've decided where you want the discussion to go, I'll add my 2 cents.

 

[MrMax59]

Fair enough, and thanks for the pointers. I'm probably going to ask too many questions, giving you a smorgasbord to pick from. I don't expect any one reviewer to tackle all my uncertainty about this story, but if anyone wants to try I'll appreciate the effort!

The first three areas for questions are related to my goals:

1) Did I present believable and interesting characters? I wanted Dani to be both sexually vulnerable but not catastrophically damaged. I wanted Jim to be aggressive and controlling with being an asshole. Where did I fail in communicating these aspects of character? Where did my characters act or react differently than you'd expect given how you knew them to that point?

2) Did I handle my third person limited narrative mode appropriately? I think I handled the mechanics of it, that is, I don't think I wrote Jims internal monologue into the story anywhere, but as a novice writer where did I fail in executing that structure?

3) Was the story embedded in reality enough to suspend disbelief? Did I generate enough of a sense of place to set a stage for the characters actions? Did I present enough of Danis past and current story to provide her the emotional openness to absorb the life-changing events she experiences?

My final area is specifically about how I describe the sexual interactions of the characters.

4) Were the sexual interactions sufficiently detailed and descriptive enough to engage the reader in the action? I always feel that my sexual scenes aren't long enough - that is, that I don't leave enough room in the description for the reader to fill in the gaps, so to speak. Is this a valid concern?

I know I'm asking alot with those questions. I hope at least some of them are sufficiently specific to allow a useful response.

Marty

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Marty,

Thanks for sharing your work with us.

I didn't really get into your story, mostly because I just didn't care about the characters. I didn't buy the blackmail slant either, even before the twist at the end. This naturally kept me from becoming involved. For an apparent amateur, your prose is rather good. I didn't have any trouble following the story, picturing your characters, or imagining the action.

Did I present believable and interesting characters?

I thought she was a doormat and he was an opportunist, neither of which is sympathetic, let alone sexy. Whether they were really believable or not is less important, though I had some trouble there too.

Did I handle my third person limited narrative mode appropriately?

Overall, yes. You may have let the perspective stray a few times, but it was so subtle I wouldn't have even mentioned it had you not asked. Consider these moments:

"No baby, no touching!" Jim ordered, noticing where her hand...

and

Jim gave a little shake to pull himself together...

See how you told the reader what Jim noticed or why Jim did something? Those are just a pair I went back and found after I read your question; I believe there are a few others.

Was the story embedded in reality enough to suspend disbelief?

I never really believed she'd be so concerned about some old pictures. It's clear she was sexually active at the time, so what would be the big deal? Plus, she's worried about Mark finding out when she's clearly not into him? Ok, so she could have been just going along with it because that's what she wanted to do anyway, but I never got that from her either.

Did I present enough of Dani's past and current story to provide her the emotional openness to absorb the life-changing events she experiences?

You may have over-presented her past, especially when you resorted to exposition. I'd have rather witnessed the two discussing the crucial prior scene that Jim witnessed long ago, which would have been a perfectly natural thing for them to do, right?

Consider how different it might have been had he said something like, "Last time I saw you, would were on a counter instead of behind one, and you sure looked like you were having a better time. You should pour yourself a cup too, and let's catch up a bit."

Were the sexual interactions sufficiently detailed and descriptive enough to engage the reader in the action? I always feel that my sexual scenes aren't long enough - that is, that I don't leave enough room in the description for the reader to fill in the gaps, so to speak. Is this a valid concern?

Yes, this is a valid concern, after all it is a story meant primarily to arouse, right? That said, no matter what you do, you'll provide too much sex for some and not enough for others. I thought the explicit moments were about the right length, with some fine sensory detail, and generally well-written too.

Worth repeating: the overall quality of your writing, prose-wise, was fine.

First, I had Jim leave Dani bound. She was depicted as bound in a way where she could (and did) free herself but it did happen. I used this action on Jims part to clearly establish his dominance over Dani in both a physical way (the binding) and emotionally (his abandonment of her in a compromising position).

I don't care so much about the rules of BDSM as the rules of common sense. What you conveyed to me was that Jim is reckless.

Second, at the end of the story it comes out that Jim based his blackmail of Dani on a lie. He confesses his lie, and shows remorse for his choices, but nevertheless her submission was achieved through deception.

I don't really care that he lied about having the pics. That's nothing compared to his willingness to coerce her in the first place. That he would resort to attempting blackmail indicates not only a moral lacking, but a serious confidence deficit on his part. To me, Jim isn't just unattractive, he's downright repulsive.


Thanks again for sharing your story with us, and for presenting some fine talking points. I'm also curious to see how others react to these two characters. If you'd like, I can elaborate on any of my responses, but I certainly don't want to beat the proverbial dead horse, you know? I get the impression, just from the questions you asked, that you already knew where your story might have issues, and that's a really good sign.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[soflabbwlvr]

Thanks for sharing your story, Marty. It was a bit longer than what is usually offered here for review, but that was by no means a negative for me. I have a difficult time writing anything under 10,000 words, so I understand how your story reached its length.

Before I get to your questions, I have a few general statements. First, I am not part of your target audience. BDSM is not a genre that I often read on Lit., as I don't particularly enjoy it. As a result, I am predisposed to not like your story before I even begin reading it. Keep that in mind as you are reading the rest of my comments, and give them the weight you think they deserve.

Second, you write very well, but I think you would benefit from the help of an editor. I noticed a number of typos--not so many as to be annoying, but enough to be distracting. A good editor would have caught most of those, and the result would have been a cleaner text that more accurately conveyed the story you wished to present.

Third, you really ration out the commas. Most writers have the opposite problem--far too many commas. Your text, on the other hand, could have benefited from the judicious addition of a few more pauses. For example, on the first page you have:

Her boyfriend Mark was here last night as well but she knew what had happened. While he was in the office closing the books for the day the teens did half their work and bolted out of the shop. After a 14 hour day Mark just couldn't face finishing their work and left it for the morning shift. 'And I'm the morning shift,' she thought to herself glumly.

That would have read better with just a few commas added to break up the clauses:

Her boyfriend Mark was here last night as well, but she knew what had happened. While he was in the office closing the books for the day, the teens did half their work and bolted out of the shop. After a 14 hour day, Mark just couldn't face finishing their work and left it for the morning shift. 'And I'm the morning shift,' she thought to herself glumly.

This is a minor point, of course, and if it happened only a few times I wouldn't bother to mention it. By the third page I was wanting to add them myself.

Now, turning to your specific issues:

1) Did I present believable and interesting characters? I wanted Dani to be both sexually vulnerable but not catastrophically damaged. I wanted Jim to be aggressive and controlling with being an asshole. Where did I fail in communicating these aspects of character? Where did my characters act or react differently than you'd expect given how you knew them to that point?

Well, at first I found Dani interesting and believable. Her introduction was very well done, and it succeeded in making me like her and interested in her from the start. I began to question the believability of the character when she recalled the incident in the snack shop. I let go of that doubt with a rationalization that she just gets turned on by public exposure and group sex. The progression was a little rushed, but it was a memory, and not the active part of the story.

You started to lose me, however, with her willing acceptance of being a sub. This is where my own biases come into play. I don't care for Dom/sub stories, especially where the sub assumes that role without a fight. Dani never fought back, at all. Instead, she embraced that role without resistance. I don't know how things work in the Dom/sub universe, but I don't care for stories where the sub just gives up at the first assertion of authority by the Dom.

I didn't find anything about Jim to be interesting or appealing. I have never cared for the all-knowing Dom character, and that is exactly how Jim was portrayed. He didn't learn about Dani's traits through interactions with her; rather, he told her things about herself based upon a single incident he observed years ago. This is my bias talking again, but the Obi-wan Kenobi Dom is never credible to me.

At the end, you tried to soften Jim by having him confess his love for Dani. For me, it was too little, too late.

2) Did I handle my third person limited narrative mode appropriately? I think I handled the mechanics of it, that is, I don't think I wrote Jims internal monologue into the story anywhere, but as a novice writer where did I fail in executing that structure?

Absolutely. I wouldn't have noticed the very few instances where you slipped out of limited had you not posed this question and Penelope answered it before me.

3) Was the story embedded in reality enough to suspend disbelief? Did I generate enough of a sense of place to set a stage for the characters actions? Did I present enough of Danis past and current story to provide her the emotional openness to absorb the life-changing events she experiences?

You certainly started with a real enough setting, and you had me completely sucked in until Dani's memory of the snack shop incident. I didn't fully accept the gang bang on school grounds orchestrated by her boyfriend, but I shrugged that off. Was it enough for me to accept her acquiescence to Jim? I don't think so. I interpreted the snack shop incident differently (incorrectly), so it didn't naturally follow for me that she would be turned on by being tied up and face-fucked.

Does this mean you failed? Not necessarily. I'm not the target audience. I took what was given and latched onto my particular kinks (public sex and group sex), and dismissed the Dom/sub aspect of the encounter. A reader more in tune with this genre may see things differently than I do.

4) Were the sexual interactions sufficiently detailed and descriptive enough to engage the reader in the action? I always feel that my sexual scenes aren't long enough - that is, that I don't leave enough room in the description for the reader to fill in the gaps, so to speak. Is this a valid concern?

This is one of those questions where there is really no right or wrong answer. I have found that writers on this site have their own idea of the proper length and amount of detail that should be included in a sex scene, and if yours isn't the same as theirs, then you did it wrong. Some will object to a lot of detail, others want to know the fate of every drop of fluid. Some only want to hear about how the characters felt, others want to know every mechanical detail. Some object if your characters make any sound, others have them engage in eloquent conversations. You can't win when you ask this question.

Personally, I think you succeeded. Your scenes were just long enough and detailed enough to convey the actions and the feelings involved.

Overall, it was a well-written story. I don't know if my objections say more about me, you, or the genre. I would not have read this story if it were not for the posting in this forum. But having read it, I admire your skill and look forward to reading other stories of yours if they are in different genres.

 

[Etaski]

Fair enough, and thanks for the pointers. I'm probably going to ask too many questions, giving you a smorgasbord to pick from. I don't expect any one reviewer to tackle all my uncertainty about this story, but if anyone wants to try I'll appreciate the effort!

Hello, MrMax, you brave soul. I'm sort of a half-way between person here: I know just enough about BDSM to enjoy a story about it, but I probably wouldn't have found it if not for the invitation to discuss the story-crafting aspect of it (which I do enjoy...)

My feelings on the story crafting part do have similarities to the previous two posters, but I didn't want to so much repeat them as take it to the next step, to ponder how you could take the same story and improve it in the areas that you seem to want, per your goals. Some of your questions do show you have that "deep down" feeling we get about certain aspects of our stories--which I share and can empathize.

1) Did I present believable and interesting characters? I wanted Dani to be both sexually vulnerable but not catastrophically damaged. I wanted Jim to be aggressive and controlling with being an asshole. Where did I fail in communicating these aspects of character? Where did my characters act or react differently than you'd expect given how you knew them to that point?

The largest "failure" is unfortunately that it's all about Dani. I didn't get an opportunity to get to know Jim at all, but I wanted to.

I have a liking for nerds ( Am one.) so that part intrigued me, but I was bewildered and disappointed with his behavior, and his exposition to explain it is sandwiched in rather than integrated (it's useable, but not enough).

But rather more important is this:

soflabbwlvr had a point about the football/cheerleader memory being ambivalent in its kink... Non-Consent or Exhibitionism and Group Sex fit a little better with that particular memory.

BDSM as a link is a distant fourth from my perspective, though I see what you were trying to do: directly link blackmail with the feelings of lost of control, making her more likely to accept them. Also directly link Jim's peeping with his desire to dominate her as well.

The problem there is I more often read that in Non-Con stories; blackmail and coercion. I think a more "pure" BDSM reader/follower/practioner would suggest that he should seduce her, not blackmail her.

A "good' Dom, a sympathetic and likeable character (what you are going for, right?) would seduce her, pursue her with some aggression and make her feel special, but also take his time and not force it.

You know one of the special parts about a healthy BDSM relationship? The sub is ultimately in control. A good Dom gives hints of what s/he has to offer the sub (think of flashy male birds strutting their stuff in front of the hen) and the sub--even if afraid--is intrigued, thinks about it, and either gradually or quickly (but always willingly) gives over their self-control to the Dom.

But the sub should come to the Dom after the Dom has given "samples" of the type of power s/he would like to wield. If the sub is going to trust the Dom with their body, they have to earn it, and the true Dominants don't have to coerce--they have their submissive coming to them. They show more self-control than the sub does in many cases but the sub always makes the choice, the selection from among the peacocks.

Unfortunately blackmail is Non-Con (which I read as well) and while it can be used in BDSM stories, and often is, it always denotes an unhealthy Dom/sub relationship, not a healthy one.

This was why I was bewildered and disappointed by Jim--he wasn't developed well enough anyway, I couldn't see much of the nerd he used to be. And he was using an unhealthy method of domination, every bit as bad as the football jock, Jack. I can tell you that a grown nerd often wants to set himself apart from those assholes. A nerd who has grown into a Dom would not take to mimicking a misogynist high school meathead.

You seem to want believable characters, but the methods and consistency are questionable for BDSM. You could change very little about the story (just don't have her give in quite so quickly with the "yes, sirs") and have it fit quite well in Non-Consent, though. Probably at least 45% of all stories in that category involve blackmail or coercion--even if it is given the "okay" at the end for the male turning out not to "really" be her rapist but it was a fantasy that she asked to play out (about 20% of the coercion stories turn out that way).

4) Were the sexual interactions sufficiently detailed and descriptive enough to engage the reader in the action? I always feel that my sexual scenes aren't long enough - that is, that I don't leave enough room in the description for the reader to fill in the gaps, so to speak. Is this a valid concern?

I'm going to echo the first two and say, "Don't worry about that part." They were fine for this story, the pacing was good, but there's no right answer.

 

[soflabbwlvr]

It appears that Etaski has, in perhaps the gentlest and politest manner possible, completely eviscerated much of my criticism of your story. With superior knowledge and a better understanding of the BDSM subculture, Etaski has highlighted areas of your story that fail to comport with accepted behavior--and indeed, the central dynamic-- within that community, while at the same time revealing my complaints to be those of an uninitiated outsider. On further review, I would place greater weight on her complaints vis-a-vis proper BDSM etiquette than on mine. Moreover, I would say that I have blurred the distinction between NonCon/Reluctance and BDSM in my analysis. In a way, that may also be the principal flaw in your story: it, too, blurs the line between NonCon/Reluctance and BDSM. With some minor corrections this story could have worked very well in NonCon, but it misses the mark by a much wider margin in BDSM.

But on the other hand, maybe you were not attempting to portray Jim as the ideal Dom, but instead as a flawed and manipulative figure entirely too full of himself as he was attempting to fill that role. In that case, you came much closer to succeeding. Perhaps if you had shown any sort of redeeming characteristic of his in the early part of the story, he may have been more likeable and acceptable at the end.

 

[MrMax59]

Thanks all for your feedback. You've been very detailed and taken the time to really dive into the questions I've asked. Your information will help me to write better stories in the future.

I'm not trying to defend anything in this response, but I do want to add a bit of my thought process and how I saw the characters motivations and actions. I didn't want to do this up front as I sincerely wanted feedback untainted by my views. Just to be 100% clear, based on your feedback I didn't express this well enough in the story which will be a lesson for the future.

For future/additional reviewers, if you haven't read the story I'll go into 'spoilers' here and you can stop reading if you'd like.

I saw Dani as a naturally submissive woman who'd never been exposed to any dom/sub dynamic. Her participation and enjoyment in the group scene included in the flashback was more about her active sexuality and submission than about getting off on the specifics of the event.

The reason she accepted Jims blackmail was rooted in how the group scene in high school affected her. It's one thing to be sexually active and another to participate in group sex. She was labelled a 'slut' and endured awful treatment before fleeing her home to start anew. She was willing to do anything to prevent a repeat of that scenario. Combined with a submissive nature she fell under Jims control 'too easily'. Her acceptance of his control (the early 'yes sir') was also a reflection of a too long repressed desire to be submissive.

Jim was meant to be an unknown/opaque character through most of the story. Internally, his initial motivation was purely for revenge, acting out against his tainted memory of a high school crush. His initially aggressive response was colored by his BDSM knowledge and fueled by Dani's submissiveness, but at the time he wasn't expecting to develop that into a real relationship, let alone a dom/sub dynamic. I'd say his expectation was the Dani would put a stop to it by calling his bluff.

As he saw how Dani was responding his feelings changed and so did his approach. He did move more to a seduction, but it was still based on his lie and he knew that. When he finally admitted to himself that Dani was a woman he wanted a relationship with, and who might be open to such a relationship, he took the moral choice - to tell the full truth and accept the consequences for his actions.

As I said somewhere above, the goal was "Literotica real", not universally realistic, or realistic in the sense that would apply in non-erotic stories. That said, I think this scenario (with the explicit sex toned down) would fit quite easily into the 'steamy romance' section of a bookstores shelves. OK, a bit of defensiveness there - so sue me

Finally, I did question whether to put this into the non-consent section and when i started writing that was my intention. As it came together and the dom/sub dynamic developed it ended as much more a BDSM story than otherwise, thus the classification.

So, a bit of justification and explanation on my part. It doesn't alter the truths you've included in your reviews and I'll use your feedback to test the quality of my future writing.

Thanks again, and good writing!

Marty

 

[Etaski]

It appears that Etaski has, in perhaps the gentlest and politest manner possible, completely eviscerated much of my criticism of your story.

Sooooo not my intention, soflabbwlvr. I was thinking that reading your thoughts helped me refine mine, actually.


Quoth MrMax59:

The reason she accepted Jims blackmail was rooted in how the group scene in high school affected her. It's one thing to be sexually active and another to participate in group sex. She was labelled a 'slut' and endured awful treatment before fleeing her home to start anew. She was willing to do anything to prevent a repeat of that scenario.

Ah, yes, I honestly did forget to say that I do find that part believable; why I was still thinking Non-Con/Reluctance.

Someone saying they don't believe someone would do the damnedest things to prevent some regrettable pictures from getting out and upending their comfortable existence hasn't been watching the news for the last 100 years. Or felt that shock of fear themselves.

Hmm, alas, I've run out of time. I'll ponder what else you've written after I've slept.

 

[Penelope Street]

fwiw. I don't see this either:

It appears that Etaski has, in perhaps the gentlest and politest manner possible, completely eviscerated much of my criticism of your story.

Even as written, I wouldn't have thought nc an inappropriate category for this story. I tend to think of BDSM as a consensual situation.


One of my stories features a young woman being blackmailed with sex photos that she believes will cost her the dream job she's just landed. In Dani's case, I'm not seeing a dream job, a dream beau, or a dream anything else; she just doesn't appear to have that much to lose. After seeing how she reacts to the night crew slacking, I already had her pegged as spineless, so maybe weak motivation is plenty in her case. I could also see her 'giving in' to the blackmail because that's what she wanted anyway. *shrugs* So, yeah, it could happen, but I just wasn't quite prepared to believe it enough to go there with her, if that makes sense. That said, I suppose it passes for 'lit-real', which was your stated goal. And it's far far from the main issue I had with the story, which is Jim being a conniving ass.


This post is from the thread about angry comments, but it's appropriate to my reaction to Jim:

I would find it hard to be offended if someone was complaining about the behavior of my characters. I'd be flattered that I was able to write it to a point where someone was moved to actually respond with passion about the story.

 

[Etaski]

fwiw. I don't see this either:

One of my stories features a young woman being blackmailed with sex photos that she believes will cost her the dream job she's just landed. In Dani's case, I'm not seeing a dream job, a dream beau, or a dream anything else; she just doesn't appear to have that much to lose.

Some people just don't have to lose what's comfortable and familiar. Even a comfortable life, with high school far away, is something to lose. Or did you just want a better understanding of her current reputation compared to her high school one?

I've seen people with supposedly much less to lose even than that still panic at the threat of being caught; and it's sometimes a very short period but in which they still made things worse for themselves (I'm actually thinking cons who got caught).

Whether or not this was portrayed in this story is less important here than my just saying that, for me, it doesn't have to be a "dream job or dream beau" or anything. I don't mind "ordinary" people in a story, either. People are not as rational as all that much of the time.

 

[Etaski]

Continued...

Combined with a submissive nature she fell under Jims control 'too easily'. Her acceptance of his control (the early 'yes sir') was also a reflection of a too long repressed desire to be submissive.

Easily explained in a sexual fantasy, and some readers did accept that; you did get some positive comments, after all. Real world may be a bit more convoluted, but that is one thing I always have to take with a grain of salt: the story's intended audience. Are we looking for real world logic or "I'm lying on my couch reading a story and the Real World can fuck off" logic.

Jim was meant to be an unknown/opaque character through most of the story.

Aw.

Internally, his initial motivation was purely for revenge, acting out against his tainted memory of a high school crush.

....revenge? I missed that. Although that would explain the "unhealthy" tactics better. I was taking the assumption that he still looked at her like an awesome lay; she did nothing to him, after all, he was just peeping and she never knew.

His initially aggressive response was colored by his BDSM knowledge and fueled by Dani's submissiveness, but at the time he wasn't expecting to develop that into a real relationship, let alone a dom/sub dynamic. I'd say his expectation was the Dani would put a stop to it by calling his bluff.

Somehow needed more from Jim in order for me to get that....

As he saw how Dani was responding his feelings changed and so did his approach. He did move more to a seduction, but it was still based on his lie and he knew that. When he finally admitted to himself that Dani was a woman he wanted a relationship with, and who might be open to such a relationship, he took the moral choice - to tell the full truth and accept the consequences for his actions.

Now this I actually have seen done and it's always a delicate scenario. Maybe that's why the exposition explaining his motivations felt inserted rather than integrated...

As I said somewhere above, the goal was "Literotica real", not universally realistic, or realistic in the sense that would apply in non-erotic stories.

Gotcha. I did legitimately miss that part.

That said, I think this scenario (with the explicit sex toned down) would fit quite easily into the 'steamy romance' section of a bookstores shelves. OK, a bit of defensiveness there - so sue me

Oh yes, this scenario does pop up in that section. It's hardly self-empowering or respectful to women, but it sells to younger women (and a few older ones) and I'm not going to deny that. The worst example right now is Twilight.

Finally, I did question whether to put this into the non-consent section and when i started writing that was my intention. As it came together and the dom/sub dynamic developed it ended as much more a BDSM story than otherwise, thus the classification.

Ah-ha. So it wasn't just me...that's definitely how it felt.

Thanks again, and good writing!

Good writing.

 

[Penelope Street]

Some people just don't have to lose what's comfortable and familiar. Even a comfortable life, with high school far away, is something to lose. .... People are not as rational as all that much of the time.

I know what it's like sticking with the familiar instead of the unknown and later realizing unknown was the better choice. So I understand Dani's actions are possible, and there are sure a lot of things in stories and movies that aren't even possible that we're still willing to accept. It was more about me accepting Dani enough to bond with her, and that just didn't happen. I'm on the other side of this discussion often enough with one of my editors, so I know where you're coming from, and I know where she's coming from too, my editor that is.

....revenge? I missed that. Although that would explain the "unhealthy" tactics better. I was taking the assumption that he still looked at her like an awesome lay; she did nothing to him, after all, he was just peeping and she never knew.

I missed the revenge angle too, and also thought this was just Jim's chance to get the girl he'd always wanted.


So is Jim meant to be the character that changes most within this story?

Good writing.

I think it's important to keep in mind we all agreed the writing was sound.

 

[MrMax59]

Thanks again for having this conversation with me! I won't go further than to reiterate that your feedback has been honest and appropriate and I'm glad I asked for it via this forum.

Take care, and best of luck to all of you!

Marty

 

[Penelope Street]

Thanks again for having this conversation with me! I won't go further than to reiterate that your feedback has been honest and appropriate and I'm glad I asked for it via this forum.

Take care, and best of luck to all of you!

Marty

Thank you for sharing your story with us and for being such a gracious host. And thanks also to soflabbwlvr and Etaski for their discerning contributions.