Story discussion 2/14/11 Sweet and Sour Shades of Sandra

[joeroberts]

Location:

http://www.literotica.com/s/sweet-and-sour-shades-of-sandra

It is two Lit pages long, set very loosely in the early 1970's and written in what I have been told is a minimalist style. I say this because I don't write very much and I'd know about as much concerning the various writing styles as my backside would about steam navigation on the Mississippi River. I have got some positive feedback on it, but as an old saying has it, "One decoration don't make a Christmas tree."

It has two main characters, Sandra and Calvin. The one is an older woman around forty, but still very attractive. She is a tutor and, as it turns out, somewhat sadistic. She is also possibly into witchcraft and ritual magic. The other character Calvin, is an eighteen year old male, one of her best students albeit he is something of a tearaway. Let's say if being a useless article was a trade, he'd be just about apprenticed to it, and his single parent mother is not amused.

He goes to see Sandra because he knows she and his mother are old friends, hoping he can get her to influence his mother to lift her grounding of him. He has an idea this will be no use, but he tries it on anyway, and the story develops from there. Suffice it to say it ends in (for him) an unexpected (and his first) bit of jig a jig, after he discovers her other little bent in a painful way.

My main questions are these:

Firstly, does this story work as erotica? Or is it just another stickbook story? (A stickbook being what we in my country would call a low grade porno magazine).

Secondly, could, or should, the sex scene be expanded, or perhaps, written up as another story in its own right?

Thirdly, can I write, or should I take up some other hobby? (Hopefully not hopscotch in a minefield!)

I'd appreciate honest answers to these questions. Thanking you in advance.
Regards,
Joe

 

[estragon]

See My Comment

Your story is well above stickbook.

 

[Laurindo]

yes . . .

You can write, but then so can everyone else, more or less. It sounds at first blush like the threshold question, but it's really not.

I left some comments at the end of your story.

 

[Pure]

hello posters

please post your comments here, so that others can easily see them, and possibly respond.

thanks,

pure,
moderator.

 

[Penelope Street]

Hi Joe,

Thanks for sharing your work with us.

Firstly, does this story work as erotica? Or is it just another stickbook story?

For me, it didn't work, though I can see how it could for a certain audience.

Secondly, could, or should, the sex scene be expanded, or perhaps, written up as another story in its own right?

Since I really wasn't into it, I can't say whether or not expanding it would be a good idea- though I don't see it being a separate story.

Thirdly, can I write, or should I take up some other hobby?

Yes, you can write and if you're really a novice this is a fine effort.

In the first paragraph, you showed me a character with problem- great start. My impression several paragraphs later was that you were trying too hard. Much of this relates to the narrative style, which you executed well, but I found cloying. On the other hand, a teenager being a smart aleck while trying to sound clever is all too appropriate- so not like I can say this style is actually a problem, if that makes sense.

Was your intention to simply focus on the intense exchange, both painful and sexual, between the two? There's certainly nothing wrong with that. If that was your goal, does it really matter why he's being caned? Because if the reason he's being punished doesn't matter, is there any reason to even address it? Why not simply show him knocking on her door with trembling knuckles; then maybe a brief conversation where she asks if he's seriously thought his options over and he says yes and off they go?

On the subject of off they go, maybe it's just narrator's flippant voice, but he sure seems blasé about the prospect, and then the reality, of his tutor administering one serious spanking.

I found the switch to past tense at the end awkward, somewhat because it doesn't seem natural switching from present to past in that situation, but also because I don't see what the conclusion really adds. Did you consider simply ending the tale with Sandra's blue eyes still blazing?

So those are my initial thoughts on your story; I appreciate the narrative style, but can't say I enjoyed it. While developing your characters is rarely a bad idea, a long introduction to a short story may not be the best way to achieve that result.

Again, if you haven't written very much, then this is an impressive effort. It's better than most stories on this site and deserves a better score than it has so far; and that might be simply because most first-time stories tend to lean toward the sweet and gentle instead of the sweet and sour.

Thanks again for sharing your story with us. It's an interesting piece to discuss and I'm curious to know what others think of it, especially their reaction to the narrator's voice.

Take Care,
Penny

 

[joeroberts]

Thanks Penny and the others who responded.

"Was your intention to simply focus on the intense exchange, both painful and sexual, between the two? There's certainly nothing wrong with that. If that was your goal, does it really matter why he's being caned? Because if the reason he's being punished doesn't matter, is there any reason to even address it? Why not simply show him knocking on her door with trembling knuckles; then maybe a brief conversation where she asks if he's seriously thought his options over and he says yes and off they go?

On the subject of off they go, maybe it's just narrator's flippant voice, but he sure seems blasé about the prospect, and then the reality, of his tutor administering one serious spanking." (Penny)

Yes, that was indeed what I was trying to do, and I appreciate your comments and advice. The story was (very loosely) based on what was in reality an extremely bad (child abuse) experience of mine. It was an attempt to make lemonade out of some viciously sour lemons if you like. If the male character seems blase about it, that possibly reflects the way we (myself and other kids of the time) were expected to feel about such things. Things were quite different back then in Australia, or at least in the Deep North where I lived. However that's not germane to the points you raise, and in no way diminishes their validity.

In hindsight, you're quite right about the ending too, I did indeed consider just leaving him remembering her other side. I believe, (I don't know for sure) that if you want to change tenses in the way I did, one way to do it is to date the parts of your story so that the reader knows, "That was then, this is now," kind of thing. Remiss of me there, as was, perhaps, that I didn't show him regarding a glass of top shelf Scotch on the rocks, with the bottle down to the "plumb sentimental" level lol!

Thanks once again.
Best regards,
Joe

 

[joeroberts]

http://top-achtung.blogspot.com/

And that means what, exactly?

 

[Penelope Street]

Yes, that was indeed what I was trying to do, and I appreciate your comments and advice. The story was (very loosely) based on what was in reality an extremely bad (child abuse) experience of mine.

Yikes! Sorry to hear about that.

If the male character seems blase about it, that possibly reflects the way we (myself and other kids of the time) were expected to feel about such things.

You mean try to take it like a man when you're still mostly a boy? Yeah, that would suck.

This is part of the reason the tense didn't really work for me because I can see him being, or at least trying to be, all stoic about it later; but in that moment it's just plain gotta hurt. Sure the pain is well described and he does mention he'd been caned before, which would lessen the shock, but I'd still expect more of "OMG, what have I gotten myself into?!" and less describing her workmanlike prowess or comparing the duration of it all to a marathon. If he was describing the action much later, in past tense, then his retrospective analysis would make a lot more sense.

I believe, (I don't know for sure) that if you want to change tenses in the way I did, one way to do it is to date the parts of your story so that the reader knows, "That was then, this is now," kind of thing.

That was then, this is now is kinda what I was trying to get at, except in your story it's rather backwards; the narrator describes the past in present tense and then summarizes subsequent events in past tense.

fwiw, I think using present tense was a fine choice, but it might have made a stronger impression if the focus had been on the visceral immediacy of his experience.

Remiss of me there, as was, perhaps, that I didn't show him regarding a glass of top shelf Scotch on the rocks, with the bottle down to the "plumb sentimental" level lol!

Yeah, I suppose if you're gonna tell a story in such a macho fashion, there ought to be a bottle of liquor in it somewhere.

 

[joeroberts]

Penny, if I did decide to rewrite this, I believe I can get my original story back, edit it and/or rewrite parts thereof, then resubmit? Is this correct? Should I try for an editor through the Volunteer Editor's Forum before doing this?

If I do so, I think I might open with Calvin musing over four fingers of Scotch on the rocks, where the colour of the Scotch held up to the light reminds him of Sandra's hair. Like a "trigger," as I think the head shrinkers and trick cyclists would call it. The bottle being, as aforesaid, at the plumb sentimental level and likewise the glass, or whatever seasoned drinkers call the level before they shoot the damn streetlights out. Maybe it's Christmas, his birthday, or the Police Commissioner's funeral, whatever. (Sardonic joke)

Your point about the visceral immediacy is also a good one. My problem here though, is personal. Without going into too much detail, I took about four brutal beatings myself and witnessed six others in the three years between when I was eleven and fourteen. My own experience (and I would stress it is my own; others may have been different) was that you psyched yourself up to an extent where, although it certainly hurt, oddly enough it hurt more afterwards (when the shock had worn off, I suppose). Indeed, strange as it may seem, it was sometimes as though you were almost a detached observer of the event. It is possible here that I have projected too much of myself into the story, thus making Calvin appear too brutalized to be real for a modern readership.

To survive, you had to "Play the gray man." That meant you nearly always took care to ensure your face looked the same as everyone else's at the time, and that, actually, is what is really meant by the phrase, "Keeping a Poker face." Also, the emotions you were allowed to display if YOU got the helicopter treatment were strictly rationed, so to speak, and woe betide you if you should exceed your quota, for then you would be Anathema. Then too, knowing what the ration was, could also be tricky; it varied from time to time, and/or from bastard to bastard. However, writing in Calvin's experience of a similar mindfuck would take too long, I think, or would it? My apologies if this is TMI.

I'd keep the present tense throughout, that would work I think. Any thoughts?
Best regards,
Joe

PS Trick cyclist = psychiatrist (partial rhyming slang, not that we use much of it where I live).
Helicopter treatment = pun on the phrase, "Hell, he copped 'er!"

 

[Penelope Street]

If I did decide to rewrite this, I believe I can get my original story back, edit it and/or rewrite parts thereof, then resubmit? Is this correct?

Yes, there is a way, though I've never done so. Since most of those who will ever read your story already have, I'd lean toward putting anything learned into a new story.

Should I try for an editor through the Volunteer Editor's Forum before doing this?

I've not used the volunteer editor's system, but I have the impression it's meant for those whose English skills are far weaker than yours- though I could sure be wrong.

If I do so, I think I might open with Calvin musing over four fingers of Scotch on the rocks, where the colour of the Scotch held up to the light reminds him of Sandra's hair.

I like it.

My problem here though, is personal.

Sometimes writing what you know works, and sometimes not. *shrugs*

It is possible here that I have projected too much of myself into the story, thus making Calvin appear too brutalized to be real for a modern readership?

I didn't feel like you did. If there are issues with this, and I could see how there might be, they likely vary depending on the individual reader.

My apologies if this is TMI.

It's your thread, so if you think it's pertinent or just want to vent, feel free.

I'd keep the present tense throughout, that would work I think. Any thoughts?

Sure, it can work. So do you imagine opening with the narrator looking into a bottle of scotch and then flashback to a main scene long ago, and use present tense for both? Do you foresee any issues with this idea, particularly with respect to the transition in time?

PS Trick cyclist = psychiatrist (partial rhyming slang, not that we use much of it where I live).

You don't have much use for rhyming- or psychiatrists?

Helicopter treatment = pun on the phrase, "Hell, he copped 'er!"

lol. I totally read that wrong. I thought the cane whipping about was meant to somehow resemble a helicopter's spinning blade.

 

[joeroberts]

What I might do is rewrite the story for another site I have heard of. I think you are correct in what you say about editing and re-posting here. The site I have in mind is more orientated towards English English lol. One thing we were always told in English classes in school about you Americans (and please don't take offense), was that, "The Americans made war upon the King's English as well as upon the English King!" Oh well, your teachers may say the same (or worse) of us for all I know!

Although I will say this, some of the best literature I have read was written by Americans. James Jones' From Here To Eternity and The Thin Red Line were both excellent, as was Joesph Wambaugh's The New Centurions. Both authors had a certain ruffty tuffty macho style to them in those works that I've always admired. OK, that was back in the days when men were men and sheep extremely nervous, but still they were both good, damn good!

I've always liked the present tense in some kinds of narrative since I first read Erich Maria Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front, but what made that novel for me was the lively translation rendered by the Australian AW Wheen. It was Wheen, incidentally, who gave the world the phrase, "All quiet on the Western Front," because that was his free translation of the book's German title, "Im Westen nichts Neues" or literally, "No news from the West." Bit daggy for a title we'd say!

Wheen, I discovered many years after first reading his translation, had earned the Military Medal three times in the Great War, or three American Silver Stars! He never used the postnominals he was entitled to though, (as in AW Wheen, MM and two Bars), because, understandably, he had become mightily sick of war. Something for your next Trivia night, eh?

"Sure, it can work. So do you imagine opening with the narrator looking into a bottle of scotch and then flashback to a main scene long ago, and use present tense for both? Do you foresee any issues with this idea, particularly with respect to the transition in time?" (Penny)

Yes, that's about the way I see it. One of those Fridays that start a long weekend say, with his old cheese (Missus) away or something. So he's left with a bottle or two and his memories that maybe he's not even told his wife about, that kind of thing. We-ell, conjuring up old memories is supposed to be one of the side effects of "Good sippin' whisky," ain't it? Sure and I wish I'd ever had the luck for it to conjure up GOOD ones!

I don't see a problem provided I make as seamless a transition as possible from the "Now" (58 year old Science Professor) sitting near his liquor cabinet or maybe behind a little bar he has in his house, and the "Then" (long haired too clever by half Apprentice Useless Article), with it ending as the tide goes out in his glass and he pours himself another while looking at the talisman she gave him. I don't think a Science Professor would shoot the streetlights out, (although you never know!) I'll have to work on it.

Then too the sex scene should be expanded. I can think of a number of things there! Maybe Sandra teases him to the brink of climax, gets him back from there, and so on, until he's on a roller coaster ride for her own dark amusement until she knows he's really ready to rattle her bones. Or perhaps she (within reason) uses some of her Dark Arts to coax more than the usual ration of male orgasms out of him.

I would really like to thank you once again for being so helpful and encouraging, and the others who have taken the time to comment.
Best regards,
Joe

 

[joeroberts]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
PS Trick cyclist = psychiatrist (partial rhyming slang, not that we use much of it where I live).
You don't have much use for rhyming- or psychiatrists?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe
Helicopter treatment = pun on the phrase, "Hell, he copped 'er!"
lol. I totally read that wrong. I thought the cane whipping about was meant to somehow resemble a helicopter's spinning blade. (Penny)

As to the first, we do use a very small amount of rhyming slang, a throwback to the Brits who first settled the country, but nowhere near the amount Brit Londoners use. For example, we might say, "Have a butcher's at that," meaning take a look at something, (because "butcher's hook" rhymes with "look") but that's about it.

It's also odd that we often use the full rhyming phrase, where the Brits mostly don't. For example, many locals where I live would refer to the police as "John Hoppers," meaning coppers, whereas a Londoner would just say "Johns," if they used that rhyme, which they don't. Then again a Londoner might well say, "You just wouldn't Christmas Eve THAT!" Confused? You're not on your Pat Malone!


As to psychiatrists, I wouldn't know how much use I had for 'em, because I've never seen one (professionally speaking that is). Until the 1990's or thereabouts, no one really acknowledged that the type of child abuse I've mentioned did occur in private schools (particularly those of the Catholic persuasion) and in other places. If you fell in a hole because of its aftereffects you were expected to dig yourself out and soldier on, lest you be thought a wimp or something. I have an idea the same obtained in the US and in Canada, sadly enough.

The helicopter thing is an example of the kind of sardonic humour we have around here. For instance if a ringer (that's an experienced stockman), were to look over a herd of sheep or cattle containing many different breeds he'd say they were "A real sand goanna mob!" Well, if you look at sand goannas you'll find there's no two of them that look alike. And the same might be said of a very disparate group of people.

A more vivid example of the same is to be found in a book about Trevor Haken, who is a notoriously corrupt former New South Wales police detective. At one point he throws a few nicknames around. One of his former colleagues was known to all t'lads but himself presumably, as "Kimbies."

This because "Kimbies" are a well known brand of disposable nappies (diapers) and were/are often advertised as being the most absorbent of such articles. Now your man being a regular old soak and totally unreliable as he was so often the worse for drink, he got the name of "Kimbies" because he, like the diaper, was full of piss (booze) all the time. I do believe New Yorkers often indulge in this form of humour too, though!

Just thought you might like me to expand on those postscripts.
Joe

 

[Pure]

notes

Hi Joe,

I had a quick read, and mostly it was enjoyable.

On occasion, you got a bit lazy, not fresh:

she and I explode into the violent thrusts of a simultaneous cataclysmic climax,

===
Firstly, does this story work as erotica? Or is it just another stickbook story? (A stickbook being what we in my country would call a low grade porno magazine).

Well, the terms are somewhat loose, as much 'erotica' is dressed up porn [adding some story and characters, for example], but it's somewhere in between, in my opinion. If your aim was erotica--as found in the erotica section of the bookstores I know of-- you're partway there. For example, at least your description above was not too anatomical and had no 'rock hard' implements.


Secondly, could, or should, the sex scene be expanded, or perhaps, written up as another story in its own right?

Well, if I was wrong about the direction you'd like to go, then certainly you *could* add lots of detail to the sex scene and downplay the story [or eliminate story]. That would make it simply, literate porn.


Thirdly, can I write, or should I take up some other hobby? (Hopefully not hopscotch in a minefield!)

Yes, I think you have some potential, but you have to find your voice. Your style seems rather to copy some others, at times.

I see potential in that the detached narrator with a wry brit humor does come across.


---
As to the question you raise later, about actually having gotten caned, abusively.

Well, Joe, the story is far from anything realistic, IMO. If, at some point you want to write about "How I got caned," and make it an interesting, non pornish story, that's another matter. If you're talking about Wambaugh, that is far from the present effort, though possibly not beyond your capability IMO.

It's the mark of porn, and pornish erotica that it's *fantasy* and that its primary or exclusive goal is to excite the reader. The older woman who canes, then soothes, then fucks you--at least in its present form-- is a fantasy apparently aimed at the reader's crotch.
This sort of story, IMO, can only be very indirectly related to your actual experiences. IOW, the fantasy, as told, moves away from any roots it has in real experience (in emotion), the exception being that the sensory terms do have a special 'punch' to them.


There is some character, and the tone is not [completely] typical, that's why I said that it moves toward erotica. It does not entirely get there.

You should decide what you're aiming for. I'd encourage you to try for what makes you different, not what just would make your story more like straightforward porn, of which there are tens of thousands of examples.

Thanks again for the contribution!

 

[Penelope Street]

I've always liked the present tense in some kinds of narrative since I first read Erich Maria Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front...

Now there's a fine example of what I had in mind when I mentioned visceral immediacy.