Story Discussion 08/17/2010 Against the wind

[loganforester]

This story for discussion is the first part of a trilogy, even though it reads as a mostly independent story. It's based on song lyrics, a new kind of challenge for me as well. I have a few questions to answer as well as any other feedback you'd like to give. Thanks.

1) How do you feel about the main characters Hugh and Jane? Are they fleshed out and believable or two cardboard cutout like?

2) How did you find the dialog? Was it consistent, effective in portraying character and provocative?

3) Does the story seem to have possibilities to turn into a longer tale or better kept as a single chapter?

4) Any further discussion on the story is welcome as well.


The link to the story is here http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=429294

 

[Cold_Eyes]

Overall, I thought it was well written. I'd definitely read a sequel if you write it. Now for my list of complaints:

1. We never get out of the flashback into the cemetery. I assume, though, we get back to that in the sequel. Maybe you could have cut the intro out and stuck it onto the beginning of the next story, unless you planned on using it as a framing device for multiple stories.

2. The flat-chested thing is somewhat unrealistic. I could see her getting teased about it, but it's unlikely that this alone would make her such a huge target for bullying. There must have been other flat-chested girls to pick on as well, considering that she was only 14. A lot of girls are still developing. Maybe if she also dressed poorly or something it would be more plausible.

3. Her dialogue with the protagonist comes off as unnecessarily nasty in the beginning. It's been three years, they weren't together in the first place, and she pretty much bitches him out. The dialogue in some spots also seems a little stilted. It's hard to put my finger on it, but it just seems a little off in a few spots. As a whole, though, the dialogue worked well.

4. Watch out for cliches. There are a few spots that got a little mushy for me. Clouds, electricity, ignite, spark, etc. It's okay to use them, but they could be cut back a bit. The repetition of ignite seemed a bit much. One thing I've been trying to do recently is that when I go back through my story, I look for cliche phrases and try to rewrite them. Don't just remove them, but try to write them in a more interesting way. I find a clever analogy or description often to be what separates a good sex scene from a great one. Of course, don't go overboard. It's better to use a familiar phrase than an awkward and tortured analogy. And if I could tell you right where that balance is, I'd be off on book signings right now. So make of that what you will.

Hope you keep writing.

 

[Dream_Operator]

Okay, my two cents.

1) How do you feel about the main characters Hugh and Jane? Are they fleshed out and believable or two cardboard cutout like?

Hugh is creepy. You start off with this:

I hugged her a little longer than was appropriate.

This is at a funeral??? WTF?

Who hits on people at a funeral? Especially, the funeral of someone you cared about.

Hugh seems likes a self-absorbed dick-head. He only seems to care about himself, and truly only about Jane after she has sprung tits?

Maybe this is what you were going for? I don't know?

 

[Dual_Triode]

Pretty Good

I must admit that your stated lyrical inspiration attracted me to read the story. I, too, am inspired by music and enjoy finding parallels to life experiences.

How do you feel about the main characters Hugh and Jane? Are they fleshed out and believable or two cardboard cutout like?

Well, like the previous poster indicated, I thought Hugh came off as a little arrogant. Not creepy, really, just a little too confident. I think he would have been more accessible if his self doubts were better expressed. Jane seemed to have a more realistic attitude, and skepticism. Maybe that's just my experience: women skeptical of my intentions.

2) How did you find the dialog? Was it consistent, effective in portraying character and provocative?

I'm guilty of this as well, but the dialog sounded like you were having a discussion with yourself. That is to say, Hugh and Jane sounded like the same person. I would like to give you some guidance about skillfully writing dialog, and I will, just as soon as I find it.

3) Does the story seem to have possibilities to turn into a longer tale or better kept as a single chapter?

Yes, absolutely. Hugh needs to return to the present and deal with Claire. Perhaps another flashback to a time when he felt the temptation of adultery? What does the future hold for them? There is ample ground here for dramatic development.

4) Any further discussion on the story is welcome as well.

I enjoyed the story, conceptually and prosaically. I think the descriptive prose of the narrator was well written and interesting. Overall, I think you did well.

I do have one nit to pick, however: Didn't Bob Seger write that song? I thought Willie Nelson and the Highwaymen covered it.

~Dual

 

[Cold_Eyes]

Okay, my two cents.


Hugh is creepy. You start off with this:



This is at a funeral??? WTF?

Who hits on people at a funeral? Especially, the funeral of someone you cared about.

Hugh seems likes a self-absorbed dick-head. He only seems to care about himself, and truly only about Jane after she has sprung tits?

Maybe this is what you were going for? I don't know?

I guess that line can come off as creepy. To me, it seemed like an acknowledgment of his loneliness at this point, though the talk about dating does come off as weird.

I think the point was to show Hugh slowly coming to regret his skirt-chasing. Toward the end, he seems to be growing disgusted with his old self. If he hadn't changed in any way, would he have let Jane drag him all over town instead of trying to sleep with her the second they left the dance?

 

[PacoFear]

Hiya Logan,

The goods news is that you have the basics down. You’ve obviously put some time into this thing. It’s solid on grammar, has a mix of dialogue and narrative, and also has a story to tell. The narrative gets a little clunky here and there, but in my book you’re doing great.

That’s enough of the good news.

As folks have pointed out, Hugh isn’t a terribly sympathetic protagonist. I don’t think every main character has to be likeable, but it looks like you want us to feel the pain/romance of his plight. Ergo, we’ve got to friendly this guy up a whole bunch.

Yes, Hugh exudes creepy here and there and this has been pointed out. You’re probably seeing these flaws for yourself now so I won't beat you up further. To move on in the process, I’ll focus on the broader issue of Hugh’s attraction to/connection with Jane.

You’ve set Hugh up as one of the cool kids, one who is a bit misunderstood by virtue of having been lumped in with the hypercool crowd. In my head, he’s the main character from every teen movie where Popular Guy accepts a bet and goes on a date with/takes to prom Uncool Girl Who is Secretly Gorgeous But Wears Baggy Clothes And Nerdy Glasses (the most recent incarnation of this well-used plot I can recall is the film “She’s All That” or perhaps “Varsity Blues”?). At any rate, Popular Guy takes Uncool Girl on a sexy montage clothes shopping trip, buys her contacts, and voila, insta-hottie.

Jane. You’ve cast her as Uncool Girl because, ummm, her chest is too small. As someone pointed out, that just ain’t enough. Jane needs some larger obstacle that set her back and divided her from her peers.

My vote? Speech impediment. Stay with me here, there’s a tone of emotional and comedic fodder there if you think about it.

As proof, I’ve pecked out an alternate scene for the one when Hugh approaches Jane after the photo shoot, below. It makes use of the speech impediment idea and exploits the obvious treasure trove I thought you’d skipped over – their common history. A childhood friendship is going to be chockfull of memories to relive. The snippets you concoct can enrich the characters and deepen their connection in a more interesting way than having her be impressed with his alpha male display of pushing Vince around.

~*~*~
“Hey Squeaker,” I offered brightly. It was an old nickname, one I’d given her when we were kids because of her lisp, which, when we were eight, was mostly just funny.

But my childhood friend jerked upright and turned to eye me with a cool stare. “What can I do for you Hugh?”

I tried my friendliest smile. “Nothing. Just wanted to say I thought you looked great at the photo thing. I’d never seen you in a dress before. Very fetching.”

“It’s my big sister’s dress. She loaned it to me. Anything else?” she asked flatly, looking away.

This was going even worse than I hoped. “No, uh, no. That’s it,” I backpeddled.

She went back to rummaging around in her locker. “Okay, well, I’ll see you around then.”

“Jane, wait. Do you think we could go out some time? Catch up?”

She was still looking in her locker and her hand rose to grip its door. I watched her knuckles turn white. Not a good sign.

“Catch up on what, Hugh? The part where my best friend ditched me in junior high when my speech impediment made me socially toxic? Or when we started high school and everyone began teasing me about being flat-chested on top of that? Which part Hugh? Which part would be more fun for you to relive, huh?”

My smile faded. “I was dumb, Jane, and selfish. And cruel. We all were.” She looked up at me and I nibbled my lip and tried for some humor, “Okay, some of us still are.”

She gritted her teeth; I could actually see her jaw muscles working. “One upside of being abandoned and shunned is that I learned to fend for myself. I don’t need you anymore, Hugh. I don’t need anybody.”

Okay, what we needed was a new topic. “Hey, you’re not lisping anymore.”

She wasn’t impressed that I’d noticed, just went about stuffing textbooks into her bag. “I got a speech tutor. It took time. A lot of it. Time you probably spent outside playing baseball on the grass, in the sun. With, what do you call them? Oh yeah, friends,” she jabbed.

“Look, if I could do it over—“

“Yeah,” she cut in, “I would have done it different too. I’d have let your neighbor’s German Shepherd drag you and that stupid little red wagon out into traffic.” She slammed her locker shut for emphasis and began walking away.

Ow, that one hurt because it was how we’d met. Brave little pigtailed Jane had tackled Bruiser at the end of the street before he’d killed us both. It had been Impressive for a seven year-old. Doubly so because she was a girl.

I trailed after her bobbing backpack. “You don’t mean that. Let me buy you a mochaccino Friday night and you can finish telling me what a jerk I am.”

She sped up a few steps though, nearly running away, and spun on her heel to look back at me while still walking backwards.

“You know what sucked the most Hugh?” she yelled down the hall for everyone to hear. “The waiting. The hoping. The hours spent listening to tapes of my own voice over and over and trying to fix something about myself that I never really thought was broken to begin with. Praying everybody else would like me again. That you’d like me. But you never came back to notice did you?”

I jerked to a stop. There it was. The real wound. I’d shelved our friendship like some childhood book I’d gotten tired of reading and moved on to giggling, gum-snapping cheerleaders.

I raised my hands helplessly. “I had no idea. Jane, I’m so sorry.“

“Screw you, Hugh. Your little sorry is about four years and three cup sizes too late. Have a nice life.”

She was gone around the corner before I could answer, which was a blessing. I had absolutely no clue what to say and half the senior class was staring at me with their mouths open. I sighed and headed for my next class with my gut knotted up like I’d just lost a double-header. I needed to mend things with Jane. I owed her that much. Trouble was, there wasn’t much time left before graduation.
*~*~*~*

The tempo of their argument above is better to my ear. Jane builds to her attack in response to Hugh’s invitations rather than lashing out right away. It feels a bit more realistic.

Also, not that you’re asking, but if you’re taking character suggestions, I like the image of younger Jane being the kind of spunky little tomboy who took risks that amazed her male peers: sledding the scariest local hill, swimming the creek known for its snakes, etc. Jane gets left in the lurch though when the boys’ interests turn towards dating and the daintier “pretty” girls. It’s an old story. The potential heartwringer of a follow-on thought, for me, would be that the once-brave little Jane stops taking risks and starts playing everything safe, setting herself up for a small, sad, little town life.

Eventually, of course, Hugh can coax the brave little Jane out so that they lead the sort of large, adventurous life they pictured as kids. IMHO, this dovetails nicely with your setup. Jane can die tragically doing what she loves: ice climbing, skydiving, spearcatching, whatever.

Basically, the Hugh you’ve got now claims to be deeper than his reputation purports him to be, but he’s attracted to the now- Jane for completely superficial reasons. There’s a conflict there that cannot be resolved by going on at length about how her beauty affects him. if it's only appearance that's motivating him, it's shallow no matter how eloquently you describe his affections. You're stuck with "Hey, now that you're hot, let's hook up."

For the story to make sense to me, he has to be attracted to her for a more meaningful reason than her previously unnoticed hotness. I think he needs to realize that there’s more to Jane than her ditzier peers. The handy mechanism for telling that story is sharing a few of their childhood exploits in which Jane demonstrated how much heart she has. It also gives them something to bond over and connect in their dialogue.

Here’s what this all would get you: Hugh’s redemption. Muy importante. Let’s face it, he’s a little douchey (hey we all were in high school), but by finally realizing how special Jane is and taking the time and energy to chase her down then help her get her over her childhood bruises, you’ll end up with a likeable, sympathetic leading man.

Just my $0.02, do as you will.

-PF

 

[loganforester]

I want to thank everyone for their contributions. You've really given me lots of things to think over as I work on the next chapter and maybe do some rework on this one. Sorry it's taken so long to reply to my own thread, things have been hectic lately.