Staying alive, staying alive, artificially

[Mensa]

I attended my brother-in-law's father's funeral a week ago. The man was a veteran of the Second World War and had many a tale to tell of his adventures. He was in the R.C.A.F bombers and served in Europe and North Africa. One of his favourite tales was how they recruited a Barbary ape from Gibraltar and made him part of their crew.

Now the Barbary apes of Gibraltar are vigorously protected. The legend goes that if the apes ever leave Gibraltar, then it will fall, so the British authorities guard them well. How they managed to steal one from under British noses in the middle of a war is a matter of amazement, but they did. They had a uniform tailor made for him and even took him on ops with them. They said he was good luck because he could spot enemy aircraft before anyone else could, so good was it's eyesight. The ape's end was both tragic and amusing, he was hit by a truck and killed outright. The bomber crew felt they had to honour the little fellow for having saved their lives on many an occasion, so, somehow, they managed to get approval for giving him a full military funeral. How they pulled that one off nobody knows, but they did and he had his funeral with escort and military salutes. He never said whether it was buried in a military cemetary but with that crew, I wouldn't bet against it.

The man had many other stories of a similarly amusing and amazing bent. He will be missed. In the end he contracted a respiratory ailment and had a hard time breathing, then he had a debilitating stroke. They wanted to put him in palliative care on machines but he refused. He said he'd had a full and fun life but now he was ready to go and meet his maker. The family agreed to his demands and refused the machines. Two days later he had another massive stroke and died. All agreed that this was all for the best and that if he couldn't enjoy life, he didn't want to be here.

Returning, we discussed whether or not we would have made the same decision. Would you want to be kept alive artificially or would you refuse and take your chances? For myself I think I would agree to the machines if they were but a bridge to a cure, meaning I would only agree to go on them if I was guaranteed that I would be coming off them again and cured. Keeping me alive artificially just for it's own sake seems pointless to me and I would want no part of that.

What do you think? What if it wasn't you but a loved one? A parent, spouse or even your child? Would that alter your decision?

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[Guest]

 

[MissTaken]

At 36 and as a mother of two, I would want to fight until there was none left. I can think of conditions or circumstances in which I would want to be let alone, but by and large, I would want to access medical services as possible.

For others, I pray I am never in that position again.

When my grandmother had been on machines for four months, she had a heartattack. At that point, the doc told us we needed to consider what to do. I was part of the decision as I was the oldest grandchild and was an adult. Yes, we shut off the respirator, I went home and began cleaning and baking for the company that would be expected.

It was something I never want to be part of again, but for the sake of a loved one, I would do what seemed best based on the circumstances.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Like you, would only want to exist with the aid of machines if there was strong evidence that they would one day be removed and I would be able to lead a full life. Life in a hospital bed, hooked up to machines that breathe for me and force my heart to beat, is not life.

My feelings would be no different if it was my spouse or child. What right do I have to force life, especially artificial life, upon anyone?

My grandmother is 92, has Alzheimers, and lives with my parents. She has a tumor near her esophagus that makes it difficult for her to swallow occasionally. The doctor has informed my parents that a feeding tube will be required in the near future. During one of grandma's lucid moments, they discussed the option with her, and she refused. She's ready to go, whenever that happens, and doesn't want even that amount of artificiality introduced. I have to agree, and hope that when that time comes, the other members of the family honor that decision.

 

[MissTaken]

If it were me, I'd say switch it off. If it were my child, spouse or friend, I'd say the same.

If there's no quality of life, there's no life.

I speak from experience.

Yes, "Quality of life"is the variable....the condition that varies and needs to be considered.

 

[navarre]

Definately,
My mom had a very severe stroke 9 years ago. It was so severe that the doctor called my brother and I and asked if he should put DNR (do not resuscitate) on her chart. We insisted that she be given all medical care available. Well….. my Mom survived until she passed away one month ago. We were able to enjoy her company for an additional nine years. This incident sort of set the guidelines for our whole family’s attitude towards this type of situation.

 

[Cheyenne]

I've already made that decision for myself- if I am terminal, no machines. If I'm a vegetable, no machines.

This is an excellent time to remind everyone to do the paperwork now to make sure your wishes are carried out. I have my living will and my power of attorney papers done. I have spoken to the primary and secondary persons in my living will to make sure they understand exactly what I want if the time comes that they have to decide for me.

Don't leave your fate to chance any more than you have to.

 

[Mensa]

One hour, fifteen minutes

I posted this thread for two reasons. First, because I was disappointed at the types of threads that were on the Board. So instead of griping, I decided to try an experiment. I would post something that I thought might initiate some thoughtful debate. With so much F & BS (Fluff and Bull Shit) I hoped to make a slight dent.

The second reason was to see how much interest it fostered and how long it stayed upfront on page one. I kept an eye on it and watched it drop like a stone. It took a mere one hour and fifteen minutes to fall off the page. Now if it was just mine I might say that it wasn't of sufficient interest to remain but I've noticed other threads that require one to think before replying have suffered a similar fate while pissing contests and frivolous flirting fluff that more properly belongs in pm's stay prominent.

A few of those types of threads are endurable but when the serious stuff constitutes but four of the forty threads on page one, then there is a problem. I've seen others complain about the state of affairs here of late, but it seems to have no effect. In fact, some of those complaining loudest are the same ones contributing to the insipid nonsense.

So, what is my complaint? I suppose it's just how pathetic things have become around here and a hope that the adults that used to contribute will someday return. There isn't a lot here to interest me anymore and that is a pity, this used to be a very fun place. Does this mean I'm leaving Lit? No, not necessarily. It just means that I won't be contributing much until things mature and the fun comes back, that's all. I just can't see wasting my time lurking here in futile anticipation of something worthwhile being posted.

 

[sigh]

i agree with everyone so far, but i have a caveat to offer...i sit on an ethics committee in a medium sized hospital and have seen living wills tossed aside when the reality of a life-ending challenge arises...people who swore, when in good health, that they wanted no part of machines suddenly discover that they have more to live for than they would have expected when the time for the decision came

the definition of quality of life sometimes changes when the option is no life at all...sometimes it's to live until an event has come (the birth of a grandchild, maybe) or to some of these folks it's only to have a few more days (or hours) to hold a spouse's hand

of course, i still advocate for living wills...they are your words when you can no longer speak...and you can recant or change them any time you wish

 

[Cheyenne]

Mensa, I brought it back from the second page, what more do you want?

I thought my reminder to everyone to get their paperwork in order was a good public service announcement of the day.

 

[Mensa]

I brought it back from the second page, what more do you want?

I thought my reminder to everyone to get their paperwork in order was a good public service announcement of the day.

Yes, you brought it back but I wrote that when it first passed of page one and I stand by every word. Other more worthy threads have suffered similar fates while drivel remains prominent for everyone to gawk at like some bloody train wreck.

 

[Tyrael]

i agree with everyone so far, but i have a caveat to offer...i sit on an ethics committee in a medium sized hospital and have seen living wills tossed aside when the reality of a life-ending challenge arises...people who swore, when in good health, that they wanted no part of machines suddenly discover that they have more to live for than they would have expected when the time for the decision came

the definition of quality of life sometimes changes when the option is no life at all...sometimes it's to live until an event has come (the birth of a grandchild, maybe) or to some of these folks it's only to have a few more days (or hours) to hold a spouse's hand

Yes, it's easy to say you wouldn't want to be on a machine or something to keep you "alive" now when for the most part not much is wrong with you. No one really would know what they would do if suddenly they are faced with a choice to either live or die and you have to make the choice right then and there.

I could be driving to the store tonight and get hit by a drunk and wake up in the hospital paralyzed, never being able to move, speak or even breath on my own again. Do I want to live like that ? Not really, but I wouldn't have the will to say let me die either.

I can only hope that that I won't be called upon to make a choice like that. I'd much rather just die in my sleep when I become 80 or so.

 

[Cheyenne]

Mensa, I am usually on the board during breakfast and then again later at night before bed. Weekends are an exception, especially when it is a blizzard out there.

My normal pattern is to start back on page 3 or 4 and post to threads in reverse order from when I was last on the board. I often find a thread that died at 9 or 10 am, but I post to it 12 hours later and a whole new group of people have a chance to see it and respond... because it is on the front page. Some of us dig back to see what we have missed. This thread, for example, I found at the top of page 2 when I started looking at threads earlier this morning at the top of page 4.

If you don't like the crap threads, take a few minutes to look at the pages behind page 1. There are always a few gems that have been missed.

 

[Mensa]

Mensa, I am usually on the board during breakfast and then again later at night before bed. Weekends are an exception, especially when it is a blizzard out there.

My normal pattern is to start back on page 3 or 4 and post to threads in reverse order from when I was last on the board. I often find a thread that died at 9 or 10 am, but I post to it 12 hours later and a whole new group of people have a chance to see it and respond... because it is on the front page. Some of us dig back to see what we have missed. This thread, for example, I found at the top of page 2 when I started looking at threads earlier this morning at the top of page 4.

If you don't like the crap threads, take a few minutes to look at the pages behind page 1. There are always a few gems that have been missed.

I do that but with so few, of late, to begin with it's like looking for a gem in a cesspool. Not long ago I finally found one with substance but it had dropped to page six. There have to be people here that are interested in more substantial things. Where are they and why don't they post? Are they just as frustrated and disillusioned as I?

 

[Cheyenne]

There have to be people here that are interested in more substantial things. Where are they and why don't they post? Are they just as frustrated and disillusioned as I?

What am I, chopped liver?

 

[Mensa]

What am I, chopped liver?

Not now or ever. Answer me truthfully, Chey, how much of it piques your interest? As much as used to, more, less?

There used to always be something but not anymore. Some days I come and go through page after page and see nothing. It doesn't have to be intellectual, I prefer fun stuff but you get damn little of even that anymore.

 

[MissTaken]

I can't argue with you, Mensa.

A shame to find myself posting drivel for the sake of something to do.

With this thread, I will be honest, I posted in the beginning and only just now revisited it. The reason for waiting so long had to do with how emotional the thread is.

Thought provoking is great, but for me, today isn't the day to think about important losses in my life.

 

[Cheyenne]

Not now or ever. Answer me truthfully, Chey, how much of it piques your interest? As much as used to, more, less?

There used to always be something but not anymore. Some days I come and go through page after page and see nothing. It doesn't have to be intellectual, I prefer fun stuff but you get damn little of even that anymore.

You have to OPEN some of the threads, Mensa.

Seriously, I can usually find a couple interesting threads in the first 3 or 4 pages every time I come here. Over time, you learn which threads not to open because they are just flirt-a-thons by the bimbo brigade (unless you are looking for that sort of thing.)
Or the many threads of pictures, I rarely open those. Depends on what I am interested in. Sometimes I'll open the political threads, sometimes not. Sometimes I'll open the "fun" threads, sometimes not. There are usually so many new ones, that I skip through them quickly to find something that interests me. Or I start my own!

 

[Gingersnap]

There is no sure thing when it comes to life support as a "bridge" to wellness depending on the illness. I do have one word of advice to all and that is be sure you understand that once you ask for "everything" to be done you understand what it means.

Everything can be pretty fucking horrible. There are worse things then survival my dear friends. I have seen both sides of the coin. I myself would not want "everything" done. I don't want to survive a severe head injury or certain strokes. I do not want to be dependent on others to do for me but that is just me. Each of us has to decide what will be our limits. They are as individual as we each of us.

Quality of life for some is to be able to smile as they watch their grandkids play cards. Others it is being able to bungee off the Golden Gate Bridge. Please discuss this with your family before something happens. It is cruel to make them guess at what your wishes might be at such a stressful time. Then GET IT IN WRITING!!!! Tell your doctor and spouse or S.O. and insist that they discuss it with you.

It is the hardest thing you will ever do. To decide whether to prolong an existance in the absence of any inkling at what that person might want is an impossible task. Why assign such responsibility or guilt to someone you love. Make the decision for them about your own life and then make a will.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Are they just as frustrated and disillusioned as I?

Yes.

And a note on living wills... check your local laws about them, I know of three cases pertaining to my family where the living wills were ignored, or the medical staff was unaware of them.

One case was when someone was rushed to the hospital. It wasn't his 'usual' hospital, and there was no living will on file for him. By the time family was reached, he was already on machines and the family had to go through the legal process of having him removed from life support.

Another was a similar case, my husband's grandmother was revived in the ambulance because the EMT's were unaware of her wishes....

The third was a case of the person having a living will, but choosing not to tell anyone but their primary physician about it. That physician wasn't on call the night that he was rushed to the hospital, and machines were employed.

Make sure your family, your physician, and your hospital are aware of your wishes. Carry a copy of your living will in your purse/wallet... it does you no good if the first people to treat you have no knowledge of your wishes.

 

[sigh]

mensa, i just got here which is why i didn't respond to it earlier, but i share your feelings about the board of late...for the last week or so i've had to work HARD to come up with a few posts each day...a couple of weeks ago the words were flowing all over the place

all fluff and piss...yes, that's about right

but the great thing is, hang around a bit and it'll liven up again...always has



and ginger...thanks for reviving the original intent of this thread...it's a good one

 

[Mensa]

My apologies

I can't argue with you, Mensa.

A shame to find myself posting drivel for the sake of something to do.

With this thread, I will be honest, I posted in the beginning and only just now revisited it. The reason for waiting so long had to do with how emotional the thread is.

Thought provoking is great, but for me, today isn't the day to think about important losses in my life.

Sorry if it upset you, love, that was far from my intent.

 

[sigh]

it's so hard for the emergency people to know...EMTs, paramedics, ER docs and nurses TREAT people...it's what they do and if they're called or if you go to them there's an assumption that treatment is desired...else why come at all?

if grandpa desires to die at home and yet the family (understandably) panics and brings him to the ER when the time comes, confusion is bound to arise...prior decisions overlooked

there are no easy answers here

 

[GreenEyedGirl]

There are two very important lines at work in this thread.

One - when does quality of life end? I have a living will and everyone in my family and doctor's office knows about it. I am only 30, but if tomorrow I have am hit by a bus, or suffer a debilitating aneurism (no dictionary handy, so I hope I spelled that correctly) I do not wish to spend the next 10, 20, 30 years alive through modern technology only.

Secondly - where is quality here? There is quality, and you have to find it, but I am thrilled to have found this site and these people. There is drivel, but so what? I don't read it unless I want some good laughs. And hell, this thread is still alive so, we can't all be bad.

Besides, there is nothing sexier than intellectually stimulated fucking.
Smarts and Sex = one happy me!