Stanley Tookie Williams......Justice finally found you

[Jagged]

It is really sad to me that there is so much support in favor of a man who was a thug, murderer, and a terrorist leader.


Nobody cried for Albert Owens, 26 who was only doing his shift at the 7-11 when Williams used a shotgun on him execution style.


Nobody in that crowd cried for Yen-I Yang, 76, Tsai-Shai Chen Yang, 63, and the couple's daughter Yu-Chin Yang Lin, 43, at the Los Angeles motel they owned. Also killed with a shotgun.

Also let's not forget the crimes he was not charged with......founding the crips who sold drugs and terrorized the citizens of L.A. and the country. How many young lives were ruined when they were recruited to his gang. Then all those ordered killed over the years. His killing and having others killed under his orders only ended when he went to prison and was isolated. Much has been made of Mr. Williams reforming himself and trying to help others, but would never tell police any information about the crips becayse he did not want to be a "rat." Also his time in prison was not just spent writing children's books, but also starting riots, attempting to escape and fighting with guards. Once again this only came to an end because he grew older and not able to fight as hard.


If the death penatly was meant for anyone it was meant for someone like Mr. Williams. He had a hard life but he only made choices that were a detriment to himself and society. He never admitted to doing anything wrong and simply felt that that he changed he should be allowed to go on with his life. There was never any legal question about his guilt and no evidence ever pointing to anyone else.

So let this be a warning to all the future and current leaders that make war on society and take part in the drug trade. Justice may be slow but it will come to you no matter what....

To those celebrities who rally around people like Mr. Williams I suggest you really think about what your doing. Do you have a right to pledge your name and support behind a cause? Of coarse and you should be involved, but think first. Is this the company you really want to keep.

 

[cloudy]

It's sad that you rejoice at yet another life lost.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

I have mixed feelings on this matter. I regret the waste of his life, which could have been even more productive, had he not committed such heinous acts that wasted other lives. That being said, his death was the penalty required by law and justice. It was his karma.

 

[Boota]

I support the idea of the death penalty, and I think Tookie Williams generally got what was coming to him. That said, I would support a nationwide moratorium on the death penalty while certain issues are settled. With the advent of DNA testing there have been many people discovered to be innocent while sitting on death row. There have even been innocent men executed.

I don't think the death penalty should be taken off the table, but we need to use every resource available to make sure we are killing the right people. I'd rather let a million Tookie Williams' live than to execute one innocent man.

 

[matriarch]

......... make sure we are killing the right people........

*shudder*.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

I have very mixed feelings about cap punishment, but in this case it couldn't have happened to a nicer guy. (That "nicer guy" is sarcasm.)

 

[Huckleman2000]

Capital punishment isn't justice, it's revenge.
Likewise with torture.

Plus, neither works, either as a deterrent or a means of gaining information.

Both should be banned in any civilized society.

 

[Guest]

*shudder*.

Same reaction.

Nothing personal, Boota, but your phrase registered deeply. Amazing, the power of words.

Perdita

 

[zeb1094]

He was a mindless, unrepentant killer. He got what was coming to him as proscribed by law. I am for the death penalty for major capital crimes, committed by sociopath killers. Anyone who is against the death penalty can surely take over my portion of the tax burden that keeps these people alive and well. Not that I'm bitchin' about the money that the government steals from me every fifteen days, no a lot of that money does do some good in this country, but keeping a convicted murder alive, with three squares a day and a place to sleep, books to read, tv to watch, etc. While people who have committed no crime live without food and shelter. Without medical attention. No, he was kept alive far to long while others suffered without.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Williams is a catch 22. You can't be repenant if you won't admit the crime. But if he admitted the crime, the odds of getting lenincy diminished. the possibility also remains that he was innocent, despite the evidence against him.

I believe in Capital punishment. I am also leery now of how it's applied thanks to Sher. It's not an enviable position to be in, but in the case of Williams, I think his refusal to admit guilt and show remorse probably doomed him in attempts to get clemency.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Williams is a catch 22. You can't be repenant if you won't admit the crime. But if he admitted the crime, the odds of getting lenincy diminished. the possibility also remains that he was innocent, despite the evidence against him.

I believe in Capital punishment. I am also leery now of how it's applied thanks to Sher. It's not an enviable position to be in, but in the case of Williams, I think his refusal to admit guilt and show remorse probably doomed him in attempts to get clemency.

It almost certainly did. How can you regret something that you claim you didn't do in the first place?

 

[Huckleman2000]

He was a mindless, unrepentant killer. He got what was coming to him as proscribed by law. I am for the death penalty for major capital crimes, committed by sociopath killers. Anyone who is against the death penalty can surely take over my portion of the tax burden that keeps these people alive and well. Not that I'm bitchin' about the money that the government steals from me every fifteen days, no a lot of that money does do some good in this country, but keeping a convicted murder alive, with three squares a day and a place to sleep, books to read, tv to watch, etc. While people who have committed no crime life with our food and shelter. Without medical attention. No, he was kept alive far to long while others suffered without.

I believe that, with all of the appeals and judicial review required, it costs more to execute a criminal than it does to imprison him for life. This is why many proponents of capital punishment support measures to "streamline" the process, and narrow the grounds for judicial review. Of course, this also raises the probability that innocent people are killed. Puts a few pennies back in your pocket, though.

If you wish to save money in the prison system, you would be better to start with abolishing mandatory drug sentencing.

 

[matriarch]

And still I have this long, deeply held hope for the future of mankind.....this kind of episode makes it so very hard to hold on to that hope.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

It almost certainly did. How can you regret something that you claim you didn't do in the first place?

to my mind, for a person to really change, you have to admit your mistakes, own up to them and in whatever way you can try to make amends for them. If you refuse to admit a mistake, any attempt you make at repentance is a sham. Likewise, if you refusr to admit a crime, you cannot genuinely display remorse.

 

[matriarch]

He was a mindless, unrepentant killer. He got what was coming to him as proscribed by law. I am for the death penalty for major capital crimes, committed by sociopath killers. Anyone who is against the death penalty can surely take over my portion of the tax burden that keeps these people alive and well. Not that I'm bitchin' about the money that the government steals from me every fifteen days, no a lot of that money does do some good in this country, but keeping a convicted murder alive, with three squares a day and a place to sleep, books to read, tv to watch, etc. While people who have committed no crime live without food and shelter. Without medical attention. No, he was kept alive far to long while others suffered without.

And yet he was sentenced to death, and then kept alive with 3 square meals a day, a place to sleep, books to read (and write), tv to watch.....for 22 years.............such civilised behaviour.

 

[zeb1094]

I believe that, with all of the appeals and judicial review required, it costs more to execute a criminal than it does to imprison him for life. This is why many proponents of capital punishment support measures to "streamline" the process, and narrow the grounds for judicial review. Of course, this also raises the probability that innocent people are killed. Puts a few pennies back in your pocket, though.

If you wish to save money in the prison system, you would be better to start with abolishing mandatory drug sentencing.

I really think that the death penalty should be expanded to include Child Molesters. And yes with todays science the process could be streamlined for those where there is not a shadow of a doubt. And it's not the money, that was just mentioned as an aside to make the point that this country needs to re-evaluate the spending of it's tax dollars. If you want to keep a prisoner for the rest of his natual life in confinement, then lets do like they do in South Korea. Let the individuals family support them, provide the food they need. The government should just have to provide the place. Any fix up, clean up of a prison should be done by the inmates. The government provide the building and the guards. The inmate needs medical attention, the family provides it, if they want too. Otherwise, tough noogies.

Now would I want to be in that kind of a prison system? Hell no. So I would make damn sure I did nothing to warrent being sent there. Another words I would abide the law as set down by my elected government.

 

[matriarch]

to my mind, for a person to really change, you have to admit your mistakes, own up to them and in whatever way you can try to make amends for them. If you refuse to admit a mistake, any attempt you make at repentance is a sham. Likewise, if you refusr to admit a crime, you cannot genuinely display remorse.

Admitting to mistakes, has nothing to do with admitting to crimes you did not commit. If he constantly denied commmitting the crimes, why should he own up to them?

Who in their right mind, if they maintained, without deviation, that they did not do something, would admit to it, because a system of law had declared them guilty? Would you??

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Admitting to mistakes, has nothing to do with admitting to crimes you did not commit. If he constantly denied commmitting the crimes, why should he own up to them?

Who in their right mind, if they maintained, without deviation, that they did not do something, would admit to it, because a system of law had declared them guilty? Would you??

Good point. I certainly wouldn't. However, I have no reason to doubt his guilt.

 

[Munachi]

Well, I am against the death penalty. No matter if he was guilty or not, and whether he was repentend or not. I think, that if a government kills people, it in a way indicates to the people of that country that killing someone can under certain circumstances be alright. In my opinion, it never is.

But apart from that, from the articles I read about it - which admittedly were in a quite left wing german newspaper, so I am sure in other papers there would be other opinions - it seemed, that there were indications of that he might indeed not have done the murders he was accused of...

 

[Huckleman2000]

...Now would I want to be in that kind of a prison system? Hell no. So I would make damn sure I did nothing to warrent being sent there. Another words I would abide the law as set down by my elected government.

Leaving aside the quite common instance of poor people pleading guilty to a lesser charge because they cannot afford the money or circumstances of a proper defense, or the less-common cases of wrongful charges and imprisonment, your plan violates the US Constitution.

But your main premise, that worse conditions of imprisonment deter crime better than humane conditions, doesn't hold up. The calculus of "don't do the crime if you can't do the time" may apply to career criminals operating under an organized crime system, but I would hesitate to describe the majority of criminals as having that degree of forethought.

Instead of punishment, try instead to consider the justice system as a means to protect the law-abiding, not just punish the criminals.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Admitting to mistakes, has nothing to do with admitting to crimes you did not commit. If he constantly denied commmitting the crimes, why should he own up to them?

Who in their right mind, if they maintained, without deviation, that they did not do something, would admit to it, because a system of law had declared them guilty? Would you??

Mats. I haven't said anything about his innnocence or guilt, except to point out he might be innocent. The evidence clearly says he wasn't. His own statements bragging about the crimes to fellow gang members don't. But the possibility exists he was.

But, I also said, and stand by my statement that you can't repent or show remorse for a crime if you refuse to admit you commited the crime. I further opined that you will have a hard time getting clemency from the governor if you haven't shown remorse and repented.

What was so wrong in saying that?

 

[Jagged]

cloudy.......I only rejoice when there is one less bad person in the world.



The death penalty as revenge....huh? I can live with that idea. The problem is that Mr. Williams sat for 20 years.....he should have been there muchless before he was executed.


DNA testing......a good idea. I would like the process to be fool proof so there is no question of guilt. I would very much support the idea of DNA test being available those who are being prosecuted. If they are not guilty they can go on with their lives and the search for the real criminal narrowed.

 

[Liar]

He's been convicted or committing three murders. Wether innocent or not, we can only speculate, so I'll assume he isn't. So he should recieve the sternest sentence in the book.

What that sentence should be is a discussion I will not go into. Because the sheer thought of it threatens to turn my stomach, and I'd have a hell of a struggle remaining diplomatic with people I like and respect.

tsnk

 

[SummerMorning]

Economics of death

I believe the Amnesty International website lists some economic statistics. Basically, with all the reviews, appeals and long waits for execution in America it's more cost effective to imprison somebody for life.

I think the calculation comes to around 500,000 dollars for the average life imprisonment sentence and 1,500,000 dollars for the average execution.

Just as an aside ... doesn't anybody find a society with 2,000,000 people in prison somewhat ... odd?

 

[Guest]

Just as an aside ... doesn't anybody find a society with 2,000,000 people in prison somewhat ... odd?

You Slovenian holy fool, you.

Perdita