Sport's thread that I hope people will deign to post to
- Thread starter Weevil
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Yes, but there are also people who are IN the halls of fame, that shouldn't be too.
Pete Rose NO MATTER WHAT one thinks of him, SHOULD be in the hall of fame, NUMBERS in your sports career are supposed to get you in, not your conduct off the playing field. If off field antics kept everyone out, then Babe Ruth, and a few more old timers wouldn't be in there. BUT, because of what they did PLAYING, they are in. Should "Shoeless" Joe Jackson be in the hall of fame? Probably yes.
Lo
Pete Rose NO MATTER WHAT one thinks of him, SHOULD be in the hall of fame, NUMBERS in your sports career are supposed to get you in, not your conduct off the playing field. If off field antics kept everyone out, then Babe Ruth, and a few more old timers wouldn't be in there. BUT, because of what they did PLAYING, they are in. Should "Shoeless" Joe Jackson be in the hall of fame? Probably yes.
Lo
lobito said:
Oh. Thanks Lobito. If I may throw down a few arguments,
1. I'm not convinced Pete's numbers put him in the hall.
2. If Pete did bet on baseball, I doubt he did, then it's beside the point. You're right that off field behaviour shouldn't be the big factor in determining your status, but gambling on the sport is a different issue. Being a jerk isn't against baseball's rules. Gambling is.
3. Pete Rose was a jerk who ignored winning in order to pile up his personal statistics. He was also a jerk to the people in his life. I have no problem with him not being in the hall of fame.
4. Joe Jackson should absolutely not be in the hall of fame.
Mike Hammer
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Pete Rose was a 110%er, and was one of the best team players to play the game EBW. Regardless of being a jerk he deserves hall of fame status. Lobito is correct in saying the Bambino, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, etc..... wouldn't be there either if they had been judged on the same criteria.
Mike Hammer said:
1. The only actual argument you threw at me is that he's a 110% percenter, which, doesn't actually qualify you to be a hall of famer. Lots of guys tried hard.
2. None of which excuses the shameful way that he played himself at first base while a player-manager to pile up statistics. He took advantage of his popularity within the game to break a record he had no business breaking.
3. No, Pete Rose is not in the Hall of Fame because of allegations that he bet on baseball. If you hold Cobb, Mantle and Ruth to that standard they'd still be in. Hey, forget what I just said those guys are held to the exact same standard. MLB's rules. There's no rule against drinking or beating your wife. There is one against gambling.
Let me clarify my argument into two seperate points
1. The issue of Pete Rose's gambling on baseball. I'm not convinced he did, the evidence is underwhelming at best. If he did, however, than I don't care if he was the best player ever, went to church every saturday and walked on water. Bet on baseball and you get kicked out for life
2. The issue of Pete Rose, ignoring gambling. I'm 50%. He was a good player, not a great one, who played so long that his career numbers are impressive. If he was a great guy I'd probably lean towards him being a hall of famer. He wasn't and as such he is hurt by the same thing that hurts Dick Allen. If you're not a nice person, it's a negative mark against you. It fucked Cepeda. It continues to fuck Rose. He was a jerk who broke a record he shouldn't have. I don't lament his exclusion from the hall of fame for those reasons.
1. The issue of Pete Rose's gambling on baseball. I'm not convinced he did, the evidence is underwhelming at best. If he did, however, than I don't care if he was the best player ever, went to church every saturday and walked on water. Bet on baseball and you get kicked out for life
2. The issue of Pete Rose, ignoring gambling. I'm 50%. He was a good player, not a great one, who played so long that his career numbers are impressive. If he was a great guy I'd probably lean towards him being a hall of famer. He wasn't and as such he is hurt by the same thing that hurts Dick Allen. If you're not a nice person, it's a negative mark against you. It fucked Cepeda. It continues to fuck Rose. He was a jerk who broke a record he shouldn't have. I don't lament his exclusion from the hall of fame for those reasons.
Mike Hammer
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EBW said:
I know what you're saying, but you are arguing both sides of the point without even realizing it. Yeah a lot of guys play hard but not with the same heart Pete did. He pushed the rules at every turn and if you were playing against him you had better plan on playing up to the same level of intensity or he would punish you for not having as much heart as he had.
I'm not familiar with any stats that back up your veiw on his shameful play at first base while player/ manager. I would be curious and enjoy seeing what you are talking about.
My point exactly "popularity" it doesn't come to those who don't deserve it. Is there a MLB rule against that?
So you're saying Cobb, Ruth, Mantle, never bet on baseball? Or were never caught betting........ by reporters in a day when the National Enquire was as much taboo as Hustlers girl in the meat grinder issue.
Not the fucking same and you know it.
Mike Hammer said:
Popularity doesn't come to players that don't deserve it? I think you'd be hard pressed to back that up.
Your argument accusing Mantle, Cobb and Ruth of betting on baseball is ridiculously ignorant. Baseball, since the 1870's, has vigorously investigated any accusations of gambling by players. Cobb was accused but cleared. Mantle and Ruth were 100% honest.
In regards to your question of how Rose abused the game to compile his record let me show you an example
In 1985 Pete Rose was manager of the Reds. This is the year he broke Cobb's record for career hits. He had no business still playing. The man was in his 23rd year. He had no power, wasn't hitting for average and was poor defensively. He was by far the worst first baseman in the league. The reds could have easily called up a kid from the minors who couldn't help but exceed Rose's .264 batting average and embarassing .319 slugging percentage. And yet, because he was the manager, he penciled himself in as the first baseman 120 times. That's embarassing. Lest you think he just did this for a year to break the record he was an awful player for about 6 years. He broke the record by shaming the game with his "Me first, team second" attitude.
