Speech-mark slip-ups and other grammar/punctuation headaches.

[Vermilion]

Ok, so I've got an excellent grammar and punctuation book which I've been reading avidly hoping that it will help me clear up some tricky bits in my writing and mostly it does, but there are still things that catch me out.


For example I have this bit of dialogue in my current story:

“Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support.” Said Andrew, standing his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

“Emelia you say?” asked the man, a glimmer of doubt showing in his voice.

“That’s her given name,” stammered Andrew, aware that this might be the key to not getting himself thrown out on his arse as some creepy stalker.

Now: as far as I can tell that's correctly punctuated, but a couple of things strike me as wrong, namely: the capitals.

moral support.” Said Andrew,

Now there's a full-stop there, but the capitalisation of 'Said' seems at odds and, conversely,

Emelia you say?” asked the man,

seems wrong with the lower-case 'asked' after a question-mark which I was always taught marks the end of a sentence.

OK... so is there an expert on direct speech here who can help me out with my sticky little dilemma.

Also - when my problems are solved, feel free to post your own queries about grammar and punctuation, even spellings. Perhaps I can use my book (or even my brains) to solve someone else's problems, even if I can't solve my own!

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[cloudy]

moral support.” Said Andrew,

this is wrong. It should be:

...moral support," said Andrew,...

but this:

Emelia you say?” asked the man,

is correct.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Precisely what the cumulo-nimbus one said.

 

[Vermilion]

OK... so one shouldn't end direct speech with a full stop right before the closing speech-marks?

yes?

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[buxxxom]

OK... so one shouldn't end direct speech with a full stop right before the closing speech-marks?

yes?

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If the words in question are part of a sentence, or a declarative statement, then a comma would be appropriate there.

"I need stories for my wedding dress porn anthology," Vermilion pleaded.

Something along those lines as an example.

 

[Vermilion]

Hrmm... something tells me I'm going to have to find someone to read this story checking for erroneous speech punctuation
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[Stella_Omega]

Oooh, I just learned this one at last!

here's what my mentor said;

"There must only be ONE full stop in a sentence!"

I don't know why her words created a moment of blinding clarity for me, but my world has never been the same since...

This is a single sentence, in which you are quoting a declaration;

“Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support,” said Andrew, standing his ground in the face of this authoritative man, ...

You can use the full stops within the quote, because they are complete sentences. But "said Andrew" is a continuation of the sentence that began within the quotes.

To use one at the end of the quote, you would want to begin a new sentence, describing Andrew's actions, thusly;

“Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support.” Andrew stood his ground in the face of this authoritative man, ...

(and by the way, you are running a lot of commas in this passage-- "That UK Comma Thing" as I like to call it )

Other punctuation is fine ending quoted dialogue; question marks, exclamation marks.

 

[Weird Harold]

OK... so is there an expert on direct speech here who can help me out with my sticky little dilemma.

How To Make Characters Talk is a very good How To Essay written several years ago by WhisperSecret. I don't know if she's still grading the test at the end, because she hasn't been around for a coouple of years now, but the explanation is as clear as youmight expect from an elementary school teacher.

Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support.” Said Andrew, standing his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

“Emelia you say?” asked the man, a glimmer of doubt showing in his voice.

“That’s her given name,” stammered Andrew, aware that this might be the key to not getting himself thrown out on his arse as some creepy stalker.

The portions in bold should be rephrased as separate sentences and (depending on how strictly you interpret the definitions of a parapgraph,) probably separate paragraphs, too.

As they are, they're run-on sentences and severely disrupt the flow of the dialogue.

The underlined portions are unnecessary as long as there are only two people in the scene; Andrew is indentified indirectly by the content and the neameless man is theonly one in the scene who could respond to Andrew.

The second tag for Andrew is debateable -- the kind of dialogue tag that Whispersecret and I often argued over -- because stammering isn't indicated by the content of the quote and if you edit it to show the stammering, the dialogue tag is redundant.

 

[Vermilion]

How To Make Characters Talk is a very good How To Essay written several years ago by WhisperSecret. I don't know if she's still grading the test at the end, because she hasn't been around for a coouple of years now, but the explanation is as clear as youmight expect from an elementary school teacher.



The portions in bold should be rephrased as separate sentences and (depending on how strictly you interpret the definitions of a parapgraph,) probably separate paragraphs, too.

As they are, they're run-on sentences and severely disrupt the flow of the dialogue.

The underlined portions are unnecessary as long as there are only two people in the scene; Andrew is indentified indirectly by the content and the neameless man is theonly one in the scene who could respond to Andrew.

The second tag for Andrew is debateable -- the kind of dialogue tag that Whispersecret and I often argued over -- because stammering isn't indicated by the content of the quote and if you edit it to show the stammering, the dialogue tag is redundant.

Well there are more than just these two people in the scene, which is why it was so tricky, especially as three of them don;t have names

Also I don't quite see how I could make those sentences work without having run-on sentences...

Oh and Stella - I do have a problem with commas, but especially so in speech. I'm trying to be good, but hey - at the moment I'm just trying to get the story out and into type.
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[Stella_Omega]

Well there are more than just these two people in the scene, which is why it was so tricky, especially as three of them don;t have names

Also I don't quite see how I could make those sentences work without having run-on sentences...

Oh and Stella - I do have a problem with commas, but especially so in speech. I'm trying to be good, but hey - at the moment I'm just trying to get the story out and into type.
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Not to worry! I know who the first drafts go...

A sentence becomes a run-on when you have more than one subject, or more than one action, basically.

In this one;

Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support,” said Andrew, standing his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

You have two actions; Andrew says, and he stands his ground.

You can break it in two, like this;

Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support,” said Andrew. He stood his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

ETA--

Or like this;

Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support.” Andrew stood his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

I like this one because it gets rid of a "said."

But-- as you pointed out-- that's the least of what you want to be worrying about just yet!

 

[Vermilion]

Not to worry! I know who the first drafts go...

A sentence becomes a run-on when you have more than one subject, or more than one action, basically.

In this one;You have two actions; Andrew says, and he stands his ground.

You can break it in two, like this;


ETA--

Or like this;


I like this one because it gets rid of a "said."

But-- as you pointed out-- that's the least of what you want to be worrying about just yet!

<pouts>
I like run-on sentences.
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[Weird Harold]

<pouts>
I like run-on sentences.
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Many rich and famous authors have loved run-on sentences but that doesn't make them any easier to read.

Well there are more than just these two people in the scene, which is why it was so tricky, especially as three of them don't have names.

Are the other nameless ones involved in the conversation Andrew and the Bouncer are having? If not, they don't exist as far as writing the dialogue goes. 90% of all dialogue is between two individuals in a comment/response dynamic. Even most group dialogues -- like a character taking questions at a press conference -- can be reduced to a series of one-on-one exchanges.

As long as the reader can keep the changes in speaker straight only the first time a character speaks needs to be tagged and even then the tag doesn't have to be an explicit "said" tag, it can be internal to the dialogue or implied by the context.

One other point -- if the POV character doesn't know who spoke, don't tag the dialogue; let the reader find out who spoke along with the POV character.

 

[Oblimo]

<pouts>
I like run-on sentences.
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And they're beautiful in German, but can be hard on the English-reading eye.

Personally, I would write that first paragraph without attribution, and save myself the bother of worrying about the proper punction altogether. This is in no way better, or somehow more proper, or any crap like that; this is just how I would rework that paragraph if I were writing a new draft:

Andrew stood his ground. He had to see Emelia again. “Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s." He would not be the sort of man who ran away. "I just came with, uh, for moral support.”​

 

[Vermilion]

Do thoughts require speech marks?

Just goes to show, he thought facaetiously, that a shared taste in music wasn’t enough to base a lifelong partnership on.

<leaves cat amongst pigeons and wanders off>

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[Weird Harold]

Do thoughts require speech marks?

No. Some venues, like Literotica, put "internal dialogue" in Italics and some recent editions of various style guides (Chicago Manual of Syle, for example) say inernal dialogue requires no special punctuation.

Some venues where italics isn't enabled use single quote marks for internal dialogue.

Persoanlly I prefer Italics or single quotes for lieral thoughts and no special punctuation for indirect thoughts:

Indirect thought:
Just goes to show, he thought facaetiously, that a shared taste in music wasn’t enough to base a lifelong partnership on.

Literal Thought/Internal Dialogue:
Just goes to show, he thought facaetiously, that a shared taste in music isn't enough to base a lifelong partnership on.

The difference is that people tend to think (and speak) in present tense.

 

[Vermilion]

The difference is that people tend to think (and speak) in present tense.

Yes, except that in this instance he is thinking about a past event.

Trust me, it works.

So... italics might work...
<goes to try it>
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ps- thanks

 

[jomar]

<pouts>
I like run-on sentences.
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Then post in Stella's run on sentence story thread. It's more writerly fun - and there's some really good stuff there.

http://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=528652

 

[Seattle Zack]

Most of the time, if you're shifting viewpoint, you don't even need dialogue tags to identify the speaker. Here's another way to handle that passage:

“Um, no, I’m a friend of Emelia’s. I just came with for, urmm, moral support.” Andrew stood his ground in the face of this authoritative man, partly because he had to see Emelia again and partly because he couldn’t stand to be the sort of man who ran away.

“Emelia, you say?” Doubt was evident in his voice.

“That’s her given name,” stammered Andrew. This might be the key to not getting himself thrown out on his arse as some creepy stalker.