Sometimes its really hard to believe we are all human.

[crystalhunting]

I'm a bit unnerved today....My mother just told me something bout her past..that when she was 16...my Grandmother performed vaginal circumcision on her..It was a common thing she said in Algeria,..and she seems to think its a good thing..the subject came up when we were discussing ideas bout my grandaughters future{and her greatgranddaughters}...I told her NO WAY would i allow that to be done to them..I told her WE are Americans...we dont need to go by stupid and silly ideas from the Arab world.This unerves me to no end...................

 

[Mistress]

Yeah, its not really good.
Some times the girl gets an infection that could make her very sick. I do not think America really allows it to be done here. I have seen some articals, as well as shows that mentioned this. It seems like a cruel practice, that can possibly risk the life of the girl.

 

[CreamyLady]

Think of the message it sends:

You are not a person, entitled to feel the pleasure of love and affection of your partner. All you are, all you will ever be, is a vessel for his sperm. You will incubate his children.

Should you bear a daughter, she, too, is nothing more than an incubator.

There are misogynists in every culture, and the one who thought up this revolting practice deserves a very special karmic hell.

 

[bluntforcemama]

Go CrystalHunter!

Don't let your mom near your kids! Clitoral circumsicion is selfish... all it is for is so that the woman can't enjoy sex. It's retarded. I'm pretty damn sure that my clit was put there for a reason! If I couldn't have an orgaam, I'd never have sex, and then what good would I be for procreation, which is the baser idea behind the pleasure. So THERE!! *humph*

 

[KillerMuffin]

What a dilemma, caught between cultures like that. Of course, you extricated yourself nicely by putting your foot down! I think I would find that knowledge about my parents very unnerving as well. Highly unnerving.

 

[alexander tzara]

It's still commonly done in some Muslim societies. I saw a programme where British girls were being taken back to their "home countries" by relatives to have female circumcision done, because it's, obviously, illegal in the UK. It seemed to be the female relatives who were most adamant about it being done because it had been so rooted in tradition for so many centuries. The mothers and grandmothers grew up believing it was shameful not to have it done.

It's a horrible practice - the women are left horribly mutilated and with little or no sexual sensation left. The practice obviously grew out of the fear of female sexuality. Islam (like the Old Testament) is structured as a very rigid patriarchy. I suppose the thinking was: if you cut out a woman's sexual organs, she is less likely to be led by her libido into breaking up the male-dominated marriage, and potentially shaking up that society.

As Americans and Britains we have the same brutality in our own recent history, too. Similar acts were being performed by surgeons in the US and other Western Countries well into the 20th Century:

To the comtemporary Western mind it sounds mad, a sadistic piece of science fiction. But clitoridectomies were performed in this country in the early part of the century. That was your grandmother's or great-grandmother's time, when some of the most eminent, celebrated surgeons in the land routinely took knife in hand and skillfully removed various parts of a woman's genitalia for reasons of insanity, hysteria and oh yes, hygiene.

Masturbation was considered to be at the core of these female disorders; the removal of the clitoris got to the heart of the problem. Records show that clitoridectomies were still being performed in certain mental hospitals as late as the 1930.

Nancy Friday - 'Women On Top'

 

[bluntforcemama]

ahem!

Machine gun, please!

 

[strawberryfields4ever]

rolling up my bag of ruffles and putting them away..kinda lost my appetite over this one..

 

[genderbender]

Circumcision

I've a good friend active in the men's movement who struggled mightily when his first son was born. My friend is Jewish but had come to believe that circumcision is a violent act that causes great harm to boys and men. Yet when the time came to decide whtether his son would be circumcised he chose to acknowledge the fact of his connection to Judaism and performed a bris. I attended, very sensitzed to the cries of the little boy as the ritual was completed. As Myst observes, tradition can demand certain things of group members that the rest of us don't understand. Clittoral circumcision sounds like a horrible thing to do to an infant girl, and I certainly support parents who choose not to allow their daughters to experience it. But I hesitate to revile a practice so deeply rooted in a culture I don't really understand. I'll accept history's judgment as change washes over these cultures, and participants struggle to find their own truths.

 

[Nicole]

When all is said and done ....

Crystalhunting, she is YOUR daughter, not your Mothers and not your Grandmothers, it's YOUR decision and no-one elses.

Cultures don't come into effect here due to the fact that you have now moved on (you say yourself WE ARE AMERICANS NOW).

Your choice, and I personally think you have made the RIGHT choice.

Well done for standing up for your daughters rights. That to me makes a very good Dad indeed.

 

[BiBabe:)]

My view...

My view of all this circumcision is that it is good for boys and bad for girls.

Boys don't get harmed at all. I know many men who are circumcised who don't remember a thing about the entire procedure. They are quite happy that they were circumcised too. An uncircumcised dick is nasty. Plus, circumcision is actually healthy for boys. It prevents infection. I'm all for boys getting circumcised.

This is the first time I've ever heard of female circumcision. It's disgusting. I'd never let anyone cut off my clit. It's my favorite thing in the whole world. I play with it, I keep it in good condition, I protect it, and I use it(quite often). Taking away sexual sensation from a female is the most disgusting thing you could ever do. And the fact that it could lead to infection also just makes my point stronger that it's wrong to do this to a girl/woman.

 

[ShyGuy68]

Re: My view...

An uncircumcised dick is nasty. Plus, circumcision is actually healthy for boys. It prevents infection. I'm all for boys getting circumcised.

Bibabe you are completly wrong there!! Just because a man isn't circumcised doesn't mean his dick is nasty. What is important is personal hygiene!! I'm not circumcised, and I have in the 32 years I have lived NEVER had any infections what so ever!! It's not that he's uncircumcised that brings on the infections, but the failure to clean the dick proberly.

And I do think that there is a loss of feeling when a man get circumcised. You can compare it to having your clit exposed all the time, since in face the dick head and the clit is very similar.

If a man want's to get it done I accept it, but at least let him wait until he's an adult, and let him choose himself, and not just do it because the parents wants it.

[Edited by ShyGuy68 on 03-12-2001 at 01:58 PM]

 

[Nicole]

I don't like to say this as he is only five but, My son must have a "nasty" dick then.

You know something I have noticed is that in America all the men seem to have circumcised Cocks, (nothing wrong with that), but you see your doctors seem to be behind it, supporting it, making you feel wrong if you don't have it done, and all for money.

In Australia our Doctors are against it saying it isn't necessary, and I agree.

Just has been said, you have the right to have a clit, a man has the right to his foreskin.

ShyGuy, I agree, teach your son right and he will be forever clean as a result, which means no infection and a happy man in life.

Open your eyes and accept that not everyone agrees with male circumcision, just like people don't agree with female circumcision.

A dick works, either way you know.

Sorry touchy subject here.

 

[genderbender]

Leave my dick alone!

I hadn't intended to steer the conversation in this direction, but I'm glad to hear people speak out against circumcision for boys. I was circumcised, probably because of the myths expressed by BiBabe. I see circumcision, whether for boys or girls as an act of disrespect that in itself does harm. And as far as the pain is concerned, I don't think anyone can assess the harm that might cause an infant. The fact we don't remember it doesn't mean it didn't cause harm. I believe it is far more caring to not perform the act and leave it to the man to decide later in life if he want to be circumcised. And circumcision for women makes no sense under any circumstances. So there!

 

[SteamyChik]

We did not get our baby boy circumsized and he has never had any infections or problems. That is all a total myth based on America's obsession with cleanliness.

As far as the practive of female circumsision, insane. Someone mentioned culture however, we don't need that kind of culture! I can't remember when or where, but there was a magazine article by a famous model that spoke out about female circumsision. It had happened to her and she said it was the most traumatic and horrible thing that ever happened to her. It took away her ability to experience any pleasure during sex. Awful.

Men may be circumsized, but it doesn't take away their pleasure at all. That's a big difference.

 

[Blackbich]

Okay...Female circumcision is bad! Where with males, they usually do this when they're babies; from what I can tell with the females (it may depend on where you're from) they wait until you're about 10 or so. That would be traumatic for any female to have something that brutal done to her at that age.

BTW I've been with both circumcised and uncircumcised men. Guess I've been lucky - I have yet to get a 'nasty' uncircumcised man. An uncircumcised penis is a beautiful thing. Okay, so's a circumcised penis. What the hell - Penises are beautiful. HELL, I LOVE PENISES!! Can you tell?

 

[SteamyChik]

From what I have read and researched when I first heard about this, it is done when the girl is around the age of 5. 5!!!! ARGH! I can't even think about this it makes my blood boil.

 

[Ally C]

It's that old devil called 'religion' again folks.

"Let he who is without skin cast the first stone" ...

I know that sounds insensitive - it's not meant to be taken as such by anyone concerned with the issues raised. I trust it will offend those who believe in carrying out such practices, whatever holy instruction manual they use ...

Enough.

 

[Gaultier]

First of all, I am not in favor of female circumcision nor male circumcision.
Of course, it should not be allowed on girls and it isn't allowed in all muslim countries. As a result girls get circumcised at home by some local personality and they get butchered and catch infections.
But my point was that anybody can be against that practise since it is harmful to the little girls, but on the other hand you can't just type and say that it is fucked culture and traditions...I mean you have to go to one of those countries, witness the way of life, learn about those traditions and then you might make up your personal opinion.
Blame the people who do it, don't blame a religion,everybody has the right to follow a religion or not.
I am not a religious person in any way...but I know what respect is. You might disaprove with something but still you have to respect the people who are living acording to their rules, their culture and their religion.

I am not sure about this but I would really doubt that Female circumcision is mentioned in the Kuran

 

[alexander tzara]

Good points, Gaultier. I think there's a tendency for Westerners, especially in America, to generalise about the Moslem faith or the Arab countries and to attribute the brutality of certain people to ALL Moslems. I found many of the comments in the 'Which Country Would You Never Live?' thread to be a bit alarmist and possibly even Xenophobic.

Terrible things certainly do happen, especially to women, in certain parts of the Moslem world - female circumcision is indefensible, no matter whether or not it's a part of tradition or culture (if there was a culture where children's hands were systematically hacked off I'd be just as outraged - it wouldn't matter whether or not I'd ever visited the country in question). And the kind of Islamic Fundamentalists who put the British author, Salman Rushdie, on a death list just because of his novel, 'Satanic Verses', are frightening. But, I've noticed that since the Cold War ended, and Communists and Russians can no longer be used as a "bogey-man" to frighten Westerners, especially Americans, into voting a certain way, and so Moslems or Arabs have become the new Bete Noir, as far as the media is concerned.

This was why I put in the Nancy Friday quote above to show that just as dubious practices were regularly done in America and other European countries not so long ago, in the name of medicine, rather than tradition.

The "us and them" attitude (eg Myst's machine gun philosophy) does no good. It just puts up more barriers and walls which isn't the way for cultures to learn from each other and hopefully faze out such dubious practices. To just point fingers of blame at all Moslems is going to get people's backs up so that they stick even more rigidly to tradional beliefs.

 

[ShyGuy68]

I saw this news story about male circumcison, and thought it was very interesting reading. If you disregard the part about the guy sueing the hospital.

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/abc/20010312/hl/gma010207circumcision_suit_1.html