Some thoughts on POV

[deliciously_naughty]

I also posted this in story ideas, so if you read both forums, please forgive the repetitiveness....

I'm currently finishing up chapter 5 of Wesley's Woman, which was my first real attempt to create a more intricate storyline and several subplots in so long I've forgotten how. The most useful critiques I've gotten have involved how I switched from a 1rst to 3rd person pov on several occasion. For me, as the writer, I thought my little line of ***** across the page would work as a pov switch indicator. And while that may have worked, it seems to have tripped up the pace or the ease of reading for many people. So my conundrum is this...if you want to tell a story from first person pov, and add subplots (which obviously means including scenes where your protagonist isn't present) how do you change point of view. Or do you just suppress the desire to include that first person perspective and write completely in third?

I enjoyed writing in first person this time around, but found out how difficult it is, especially in a several chapter length story.

For examples of what I mean, the link to my stories is in my sig line.

Thanks

 

[horny_giraffe]

I think that if you want to change the POV, it can help to actually insert your new point of view as another character in the story. The narrator is a participant, of sorts--not just an observer. After all, a person's observations can say a lot more about who they are than what they are observing.

I'm not entirely sure how you could switch to an omniscient third person, though. What you would basically need is a transition that is the equivalent of a --I think it's called a crane shot in the movies, or a helicopter shot.

I suppose you can only go so far with a movie metaphor, though. I've had my most awkward transitions, where I've had to resort to visual tricks like the *********** bar, when I try to do the equivalent of a cut scene.

One idea is that you could basically repeat a very small portion of a scene from the different point of view--almost a sort of appositional paragraph. The repetion could be a cue to the reader that this is a different point of view.

As a rough example:

"I felt him behind me, over me, thrusting into me. With every thrust, there was short pause--almost a hiccup--and I felt his warm palm once again slap my ass cheek. The sting of the slap spread in a wave of heat down my spine, through my chest, and pushed out my nipples into his palms.

I felt her underneath me--and with each slap her nipples hardened until they pressed like a small pebbles into the palms of my hands--pebbles nestled in the silken cushions of her breasts or like rubies set on white velvet..."

That's one idea. It could get old real fast, though.

 

[Pure]

Hi DN,
Copied below is the first such transition in the Wesley story.

[quote from Wesley's Woman, ch 1]
She was the most gorgeous woman he'd even seen! He glanced over at the data...**she was 21 years old, had been a member of the diplomatic corps for 2 years, top of her class at Yale in diplomacy with a slew of academic awards. Birthplace was Helena, a planet towards the edge of known space and not a member of the Federation. Ruled by a royal family, currently queen was a woman named Meleca. Parents were Jean-Luc Picard and Meleca of Helena. Royal? She was royal? The sweaty fantasy he'd been brewing stopped suddenly...she was the captains daughter AND royal to boot. She was untouchable. The alarm he'd set beeped. She would be arriving in 10 minutes. He went up to transporter room 4 and waited for the signal that she was ready to be transported.

***************

I nodded solemnly to Captain Himley and thanked him for his hospitality. I smiled at Chief Engineer Hardy and allowed a bit more mischief show as I was sure he remembered our long kisses in the botanical gardens and the dreams I'm sure they inspired. He'd been cute, but hardly my type. I gave the signal and saw the sparkly field that meant I'd been transported. **The next thing I saw was a young man, about 18-20 years of age, a little under 6 feet, big brown eyes and full lips. A bit lanky, but still, quite delicious looking. I glanced around. There was the engineer. Other than the two men, the room was empty.
[end]////

I don't see anything wrong with the idea, but what shows above, even if clear this time, could cause problems. Notice the similarity of the first narrator's piece and the first person piece.
Note the similarity of the two sentences asterisked.

To be blunt, they are both 'you', I think. The narrator, instead needs his/her own vocabulary and style. So does the young lady. They should be *different people.* Some people use words others don't, and affectations, style etc. Here is an example made up just now:

The lust that burned in her guts and her sex seemed only to grow, the longer she thought of the impossibility of satisfaction: It was her father's best friend, after all, and he had dandled her on his knee when she was just 'little mouse'--they all had dubbed her that for several years.
****

How was I to get this guy? God, my pussy was almost dripping, but I couldn't figure how to steer the talk towards sex. I tried to picture his cock. Thick as my wrist I'd bet you anything. A tingle ran up from my cunt to my tits and hardened my nipples and finally he must have caught sight of them. "You're up late," he said. I could almost feel a brush against them as his glance went lower.

******
=====
Just my thoughts, in case they are useful. I find two most common problems in most stories are failure to characterize a narrator, and failure to have a first person who talks differently from oneself.

J.

 

[takingchances42]

POV switches are generally used within the third person, from one character to another. The switches tend to be clearly and quickly identified, otherwise the reader can be confused.

Switching POV from first to third person in mid story is whole different matter. While some people here will undoubtedly be able to list some well known examples, it seems quite unconventional to me. Switching characters is one thing, but I like consistency in the overall POV. It is either first person, second person, third person limited, or third person omniscient. When the narrator switches, it is so mechanically intrusive, that it pulls me out of the story, and reminds me that I am reading a story, rather than suspending disbelief and being "in" the story. Just my opinion...

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Thanks for the feedback

Grin, if I have a problem, it's that I've developed too strong a voice that is my own. I used to write when I was younger, but haven't really written much beyond academic papers and my journal for the last 8 years or so (both of which naturally have a strong voice from the writer.) I've been doing the fiction/erotica thing on and off for the last 6 months. But my style, when shown to me like that...is definitely a little too much me and not enough *them*.

Again...thanks for the helpful advice.

As I said, this was really my first experiment with multiple points of view and various subplots so I appreciate the suggestions and advice.

 

[Whispersecret]

I agree with absolutely everything takingchances42 said, but I'll even add that if you find some prime examples, don't assume you can pull it off like <insert name of classic, literary giant here>. If you know you're a beginner, take the advice of those TV shows and "Don't try this at home."

My unsolicited advice is

1. If you want to be published in the mainstream, consider sticking with what's tried and true in the pov arena. When you've established a readership and a relationship with a publisher, THEN go out on the creative limb.

2. If you're just writing as a hobby, feel free to experiment, but understand that there are usually reasons why the majority of prose is written a certain way. Those reasons are not because some stuffy professors flipped a coin and decreed it so. The customary "rules" about pov and any other writing matter are there because they make the writing clearer to understand. That's what it's all about. Communication of ideas.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

I love these Wesley-stories, and the change of POV don't bother me, on the contrary, I think they make the story more alive. BUT only when it's a change from a 3:rd person to a whole different "I". It doesn't work for me if it changes from 3:rd person to the same person but in 1:st person. Know what I mean?

 

[Pure]

This is a postscript.

Considering WhisperS's caution, a quick check of a couple books of 'best' erotic stories confirms what she said. I found *no* changes of POV.

The key characteristic seems to be that these stories of 3-10 pages are incredibly 'tight'; no word is wasted; at the same time the reader has to get drawn in in a hurry, and erotically affected.
So a consistent pov allows that maximum impact. Even one shift necessitates re-involving the reader, and the author just doesn't have much time.

It might also be noted, that first person is the most prevalent, but there is a fair sample--maybe quarter-- of third person (one-character focussed, non-omniscient).

J.

 

[Uther_Pendragon]

I'm currently finishing up chapter 5 of Wesley's Woman, which was my first real attempt to create a more intricate storyline and several subplots in so long I've forgotten how. The most useful critiques I've gotten have involved how I switched from a 1rst to 3rd person pov on several occasion. For me, as the writer, I thought my little line of ***** across the page would work as a pov switch indicator. And while that may have worked, it seems to have tripped up the pace or the ease of reading for many people. So my conundrum is this...if you want to tell a story from first person pov, and add subplots (which obviously means including scenes where your protagonist isn't present) how do you change point of view. Or do you just suppress the desire to include that first person perspective and write completely in third?





Thanks

|
Well, I don't think you can write a first person story and
include something the narrator doesn't know.
You can say, "As I learned later, John had ...." Even that
is a little lame.
You could write in 3rd-person limited with much of the story
sticking very close to the POV character knows. Then the
jumps to 3rd-person (not so limited) will be easier for
your readers to take.
Remamber that your reader experiences a 1st-person story as something the POV character is telling him.

 

[Madame Manga]

Hey, one of my favorite topics...

Nothing kills a story for me faster than awkward shifts of POV. I pay a lot of attention to POV in everything I read, write and edit. You can blame one of my earliest editors--it was a big burr under his saddle. "POV whiplash" was one of his favorite pejoratives. I already inclined to that way of thinking in any case--my editor gave me the vocabulary! ;-)

In a short story, I think it's nearly essential to stick to one viewpoint. Almost any story will lose focus if the reader has to keep adjusting to another character's line of sight--and that's assuming that the author is consistent within each POV.

Novels are another matter. It's hard to accomplish a long and complex storyline in one head, so moving around in third person may be necessary. *Rapid* switches are still out, IMO. Possibly a fierce firefight or something like that may require multiple viewpoints. Clarity and pace is key, not directly registering every character's reactions to everything that happens.

I know that many successful romance authors bop all over the room within a scene. Nora Roberts comes to mind. She is good enough to make it clear who is thinking or observing what, but it's still not my favorite approach. I have sometimes seen it reasonably well done, but I so often see it badly done that I would usually advise a beginning writer to avoid it completely.

A philosophical note: Some erotica writers I know have told me that they find a sex scene written in rapidly switching perspectives sexier and more romantic than one in which we know the thoughts of only one of the partners. Maybe so. To me, such writing feels immature and gushy. ;-) Perhaps I'm a cynic, but we never do know exactly what our partners are thinking. We are always alone in our heads no matter how connected we may feel to someone else. I don't care for romance novels in general, so this might be a matter of taste.

Changing around too often gives me a sense that the author doesn't know how to seat herself firmly in anyone's head and can't make up her mind. The whole story may seem to rest on shifting sands. In a few cases, that might get the author's point across well, but I can't think of any right now. In general, I much prefer a story that has a solid location in a particular brain.

Regards, MM

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Everyone...thanks for the candid and honest responses. I'm finishing W.W. up right now and it's a little late in the game on that particular story to completely change my style. But for the next story I'm working on "Taxi" I'm trying to take your advice as well as the challenge of a first-person story with no other pov. Wish me luck