Some questions for anyone with military knowledge

[manyeyedhydra]

Hi,

I'm working on a story which begins with a small military unit about to be sent on a mission to a dimension outside of our own (something like Stargate, although the men are not told they are being sent anywhere out of the ordinary until they actually arrive there).

What would be the typical behaviour of the soldiers before being deployed? Would there be last minute checks of weapons/equipment? Basically I want to add some actions as backdrop to an initial conversation while the men are waiting to be deployed.

Also, what would be the typical size of a small exploratory unit and how would it be referred to? (Squad?)

thanks

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Phew! That's a lot to ask for a thread. Might I suggest that you take a break from reading and check out Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers and read that. Once you've gotten into the line-doggie's mindset, then you can PM me and I'll help you out all I can.

V_M
MSG (ret.) USAR
Spec. Ops

 

[NoJo]

Hi,

I'm working on a story which begins with a small military unit about to be sent on a mission to a dimension outside of our own


Also, what would be the typical size of a small exploratory unit and how would it be referred to? (Squad?)

thanks

It all depends on the dimension. It's been a while, but in my day, you'd take the number of the dimension and then double it, and round up to the nearest ten. So, say, if you were going to reconnoiter the 17th dimension you'd take 40 people (2 X 17 = 34, round up to 40).

The units would normally be called, jokingly "Singularity-Suckers", because in 90% of cases they would be absorbed (= sucked) into one of the 300 quadrillion singularites that infest our corner of the universe, during the spacecraft's compicated Heimlich manouver out of metaspace.

Hope this helps

 

[manyeyedhydra]

It all depends on the dimension. It's been a while, but in my day, you'd take the number of the dimension and then double it, and round up to the nearest ten. So, say, if you were going to reconnoiter the 17th dimension you'd take 40 people (2 X 17 = 34, round up to 40).

The units would normally be called, jokingly "Singularity-Suckers", because in 90% of cases they would be absorbed (= sucked) into one of the 300 quadrillion singularites that infest our corner of the universe, during the spacecraft's compicated Heimlich manouver out of metaspace.

Hope this helps

I think my brain just threw a cog somewhere

 

[NoJo]

I think my brain just threw a cog somewhere

Good. Now start writing Sci Fi, dammit

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Try my method first. I may not be much of a writer but I was a really good soldier. Do you want this realistic or just silly.

 

[OzoneRed]

Or try reading As Eagles Screamed or Currahee, both by Donald Burgett.

 

[R. Richard]

Hi,

I'm working on a story which begins with a small military unit about to be sent on a mission to a dimension outside of our own (something like Stargate, although the men are not told they are being sent anywhere out of the ordinary until they actually arrive there).

What would be the typical behaviour of the soldiers before being deployed? Would there be last minute checks of weapons/equipment? Basically I want to add some actions as backdrop to an initial conversation while the men are waiting to be deployed.

Also, what would be the typical size of a small exploratory unit and how would it be referred to? (Squad?)

thanks

If you were going to send a small military unit on such a mission, chances are it would be a Special Forces unit. Typically a Special Forces unit would be deployed as an Operational Detachment Alpha.

The primary operational element of a Special Forces company, an A-Team, consists of 12 Special Forces soldiers, two officers, and ten sergeants. All team members are SF qualified and cross-trained in different skills. They are also multi-lingual [This could be important if the have to communicate with other lving beings, even if the language is an unknown one.] An A-Team is almost unlimited in it's capabilities to operate in hostile or denied areas. A-Teams can infiltrate and exfiltrate their area of operations by air, land, or sea. An A-Team can operate for an indefinite period of time in remote locations with little or no outside support. A SF A-Team is a truly independent, self-sustaining unit. Not only can an A-Team fight, they can also communciate wih foreign counterparts, up through battalion level.

SF soldiers are both soldiers and trained specialists in at least one other area. They would thoroughly check not only weapons, but any other equipment they carry. SF soldiers talk the same type of talk that any squad of soldiers would talk. However, in the case of an ODA, the talk can escalate to the PhD level, with no loss of reality.

If the mission were one of exploration, a SF ODA would most likely be sent in. An SF ODA is a very strong unit, with multiple skills. An SF ODA has one weakness, they care. If the mission were one of securing a base from which to operate, Airborne Rangers would be the more likely choice. Airborne guys are often referred to as "killers from the skies" and they don't much care.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Nicely put, Richard. That is both accurate and succinct. Unfortunately, while you and I know what we mean, I fear our poor civilian will need more background. Do the background reading, Hydra, then get back to either of us.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Try my method first. I may not be much of a writer but I was a really good soldier. Do you want this realistic or just silly.

Realistic. Present day setting.

The world as it is now except some scientists have stumbled on a way to open a doorway into another place they assume to be a different dimension. This is kept secret while small military units are sent in as armed support for exploratory teams.

(It's not stated in this story but you can assume the initial, purely scientific, teams didn't come back.)

 

[Weird Harold]

Phew! That's a lot to ask for a thread. Might I suggest that you take a break from reading and check out Robert Heinlein's Starship Troopers and read that. Once you've gotten into the line-doggie's mindset, then you can PM me and I'll help you out all I can.

V_M
MSG (ret.) USAR
Spec. Ops

Starship Troopers is getting abit dated, although the "grunt" mindset has changed very little.

I just finished Maxome Foe by John Ringo and Travis s, Taylor -- the third book in the Looking Glass series. The grunts are officially Force Recon Marines but actually are proto space marines and are in a situation very much like the OP's premise; "boldly going into strange new worlds and killing things." Most of John Ringo's work is military SF with a very blunt and non-PC "grunt's eye view" of the military.


Another series that might be helpful is the STARFIST series by David Sherman and Dan Craig. Both authors are combat veterans and the entire series involves alien environments and alien contacts.

On a lighter note, Robert Asprin's Phule's Company series is written as farce, but the banter among the troops has a strong element of Truth.

David Weber's Honor Harrington series also has some good viewpoints from a "forward into the unknown" perspective -- especially the ancilliary anthologies.

Eric Flint also does some very realistic military SF -- especially the Rats Bats & Vats series collaboration with Dave Freer.

 

[Weird Harold]

Realistic. Present day setting.

The world as it is now except some scientists have stumbled on a way to open a doorway into another place they assume to be a different dimension. This is kept secret while small military units are sent in as armed support for exploratory teams.

(It's not stated in this story but you can assume the initial, purely scientific, teams didn't come back.)

Sounds a LOT like John Ringo andTravis Taylor's Lookingglass series.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Then there is alway David Drakes Hammer's Slammers, if you're looking for some mechanized calvary.

 

[rgraham666]

Those are damned good reads.

 

[manyeyedhydra]

If you were going to send a small military unit on such a mission, chances are it would be a Special Forces unit. Typically a Special Forces unit would be deployed as an Operational Detachment Alpha.

The primary operational element of a Special Forces company, an A-Team, consists of 12 Special Forces soldiers, two officers, and ten sergeants. All team members are SF qualified and cross-trained in different skills. They are also multi-lingual [This could be important if the have to communicate with other lving beings, even if the language is an unknown one.] An A-Team is almost unlimited in it's capabilities to operate in hostile or denied areas. A-Teams can infiltrate and exfiltrate their area of operations by air, land, or sea. An A-Team can operate for an indefinite period of time in remote locations with little or no outside support. A SF A-Team is a truly independent, self-sustaining unit. Not only can an A-Team fight, they can also communciate wih foreign counterparts, up through battalion level.

SF soldiers are both soldiers and trained specialists in at least one other area. They would thoroughly check not only weapons, but any other equipment they carry. SF soldiers talk the same type of talk that any squad of soldiers would talk. However, in the case of an ODA, the talk can escalate to the PhD level, with no loss of reality.

If the mission were one of exploration, a SF ODA would most likely be sent in. An SF ODA is a very strong unit, with multiple skills. An SF ODA has one weakness, they care. If the mission were one of securing a base from which to operate, Airborne Rangers would be the more likely choice. Airborne guys are often referred to as "killers from the skies" and they don't much care.

Thanks, a lot of good information.

Unfortunately I may have to grimace and move into stereotype land. The main character I have in mind is too green and naive. The initial conversation is used purely to paint him as "we should think of the hearts and minds" as he argues with "I don't want to get my head shot off." I'm thinking of characters at a low rank level that will not have seen real action.

In which case it's fairly clear that someone is using them and groups like them as cannon fodder.

Sort of like the science team didn't come back, the special forces team didn't come back, what have we got left we can afford to lose.

It's a fairly ugly wound on reality, but I guess I just have to apply the bandage and move swiftly on before anyone notices

 

[manyeyedhydra]

Oh and thanks for the book suggestions. I'll try and check them out.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Then send a standard squad of Marines or Army infantry...squad = 6 to 13 men of enlisted ranks. Squad leader would be a sergeant or could be a corporal. The rest would be privates and PFCs.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Then send a standard squad of Marines or Army infantry...squad = 6 to 13 men of enlisted ranks. Squad leader would be a sergeant or could be a corporal. The rest would be privates and PFCs.

Yup, a squad. Two fireteams of five men each. A buck sergeant in charge of one and a staff sergeant in charge of the other and of the whole squad. The sergeants will be in their late twenties, the young troops in their late 'teens to early twenties. There will be one SAW (squad automatic weapon=light machinegun) in one of the fireteams and there will be some sort of grenade launcher in the other. They will carry about 3 days of rations and expect to be in and out in that time. Any time longer than that and they will need backup and reprovisioning.

If you are planning on this being a "throw-away" unit, the brass won't like it one bit which will make an additional subplot. Sacrificing units just doesn't cut it in the America military unless there one Hell of a good reason. IMO, if the science teams didn't come back and the SF A-Team didn't come back then we would not send in so small a unit. With that kind of potential threat, you're looking at a battalion strength expeditionary force with serious heavies in reserve. The first time they run into something really bad, all Hell will break loose with air support (you'd be appalled how much damage an A-10 can do!), armored reinforcement and a division of Mech Infantry comin' thru the rye. Old soldiers like me will tear up reading this and be muttering things like "Yeah, here come de Cav!" And the first time your young, scared hero calls for fire support, his quavering voice will be answered by a calm, "Co-ordinates locked. Y'all get down, now. On the waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!" Shortly after that the entire landscape will disappear.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Since the Civil War, it has been the American style of war to expend a gazillion dollars worth of ordnance rather than lose one soldier's life. Because of that, our kill ratio is absolutely obscene. We mourn one after making the "other" mourn a hundred . . . unless we can make it a thousand!

 

[slyc_willie]

Thanks, a lot of good information.

Unfortunately I may have to grimace and move into stereotype land. The main character I have in mind is too green and naive. The initial conversation is used purely to paint him as "we should think of the hearts and minds" as he argues with "I don't want to get my head shot off." I'm thinking of characters at a low rank level that will not have seen real action.

In which case it's fairly clear that someone is using them and groups like them as cannon fodder.

Sort of like the science team didn't come back, the special forces team didn't come back, what have we got left we can afford to lose.

It's a fairly ugly wound on reality, but I guess I just have to apply the bandage and move swiftly on before anyone notices

Two ways of seeing this.

If the agency (I'm assuming it's the government/military sending these soldiers to nowhere) thinks there is a good chance of the soldiers not returning, they may want to send a basic squad. In the terms I am familiar with (US Army), it would be an eight-man fire team with an officer in charge, such as a first or second lieutenant. Within that team, you would have infantry-trained soldiers, at least one combat medic, a sniper, a communications expert, and an engineer/mechanic of some sort. Probably some experience beyond basic and MOS training, but not much vested in them as far as training goes, or else they would have lost out on millions of dollars worth of viable soldier training.

If, on the other hand, there is at least some likelihood of the soldiers returning, I would suggest the following:

Five-man Marine Recon or Army Ranger fire team, lead by an officer (most likely a Captain). Marine Recons are trained in all basic survival tactics, sniper, combat medic, extraction, airborne, and so on. Same goes for Army Rangers. if you are going with the Rangers, most would be 18 Deltas, with one 18 Foxtrot (18 deltas are special forces combat specialists; 18 foxtrots are special forces combat medics). Each would have a personal specialty; one would be the recognized sniper, one the interrogation expert, one the medic, etc.

In addition to this fire team, you would probably want to include either Air Force or Army officers who serve as the 'brains' of the group (which, naturally, would lead to typical enlisted vs. commissioned animosity, at least at first). Air Force military intelligence officers receive a good amount of training in various levels of tactics, and so do certain high-qualifying Army officers.

You might even want to include a military/CIA operative, just to spice thigns up.

Either way, the team would be small, given the exploratory nature of the mission. Eight men are easier to lose than twenty.

 

[Weird Harold]

I'm thinking of characters at a low rank level that will not have seen real action.

In which case it's fairly clear that someone is using them and groups like them as cannon fodder.

Sort of like the science team didn't come back, the special forces team didn't come back, what have we got left we can afford to lose.

You may have to go to some non-american, non-nato military to find that kind of mindset -- at least on an institutional level. It would be difficult to find that kind of institutional mind-set in ANY competent, professional millitary.

Military commanders who think in terms of "who can we afford to lose" don't last long because they tend to lose -- and neither the soldiers who pay the price of that kind of thinking nor the political masters who pay them will tolerate commanders who lose.

Rats Bats & Vats by Eric Flint and Dave Freer and it's sequel is a satire on the kind of "political military" you're describing with the incompetence and corruption severely exagerated.

Into the Looking Glass (and sequels) by John Ringo and Travis Taylor and A Hymn Before Battle (and sequels) byJohn Ringo include several "Forelorn Hope" situations involving green troops in situations where they have little chance of survival, but those are distinctly different from the mindset you're postulating.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Harold is absolutely correct. The kind of mindset you wanted to start with is what is found in the worst sort of "conspiracy theory" movies as written by the least competant no-talents Hollywood can find. Think of Predator as the worst. Any Rambo film is just as bad. Terrible things happen to small units in combat, cf. Platoon but that isn't because their commanders don't care whether they come back or not.

 

[jomar]

Starship Troopers is getting abit dated, although the "grunt" mindset has changed very little.

I just finished Maxome Foe by John Ringo and Travis s, Taylor -- the third book in the Looking Glass series. The grunts are officially Force Recon Marines but actually are proto space marines and are in a situation very much like the OP's premise; "boldly going into strange new worlds and killing things." Most of John Ringo's work is military SF with a very blunt and non-PC "grunt's eye view" of the military.


Another series that might be helpful is the STARFIST series by David Sherman and Dan Craig. Both authors are combat veterans and the entire series involves alien environments and alien contacts.

On a lighter note, Robert Asprin's Phule's Company series is written as farce, but the banter among the troops has a strong element of Truth.

David Weber's Honor Harrington series also has some good viewpoints from a "forward into the unknown" perspective -- especially the ancilliary anthologies.

Eric Flint also does some very realistic military SF -- especially the Rats Bats & Vats series collaboration with Dave Freer.

Thanks for this list, I'm going to check out a few.

And the earlier Honor Harrington books were more battle and tactics. The later got way too "politics among the stars" and I lost interest.

 

[Weird Harold]

And the earlier Honor Harrington books were more battle and tactics. The later got way too "politics among the stars" and I lost interest.

The action picks up in the last few books -- Ashes of Victory and later. The political themes of the the middle books is kind of necessary for the continuing plot arc -- but they also illustrate why I qualified my comments about competent military institutions; the Northridge government is an example of the worst kind of 'military' thinking.

(Also, the Honor Harrington series is semi-grounded in real history, so it's a fairly accurate portrayal of what happens when the authorities DO start thinking in terms of "who can we afford to sacrifice?")

 

[jomar]

The action picks up in the last few books -- Ashes of Victory and later. The political themes of the the middle books is kind of necessary for the continuing plot arc -- but they also illustrate why I qualified my comments about competent military institutions; the Northridge government is an example of the worst kind of 'military' thinking.

(Also, the Honor Harrington series is semi-grounded in real history, so it's a fairly accurate portrayal of what happens when the authorities DO start thinking in terms of "who can we afford to sacrifice?")

Huh. Maybe I'll pick them back up then. I used to like the star-politic stuff (Asimov, Herbert) but grew out of the mood. I wasn't aware history angle - that's interesting.