so my state executed a Brit
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Lost Cause
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We can always turn the remains over to England so we don't have to pollute the ground with his rancid meat. Either that, or put his remains in carbon-freeze with a plaque, and display him in public like the old days.
So many options..........
So many options..........
MunchinMark
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While he was as guilty as sin, the trial was a bit suspicious since the jury were not told that he suffered from a mental condition.
And it was a lethal injection according to the reports we got over here.
And I think carbon-freezing only exists in Star Wars.
And it was a lethal injection according to the reports we got over here.
And I think carbon-freezing only exists in Star Wars.
freescorfr
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I've abhored the idea of capital punishment all my adult life.
freescorfr
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I'm intrigued by what it is that enables us to advance in our thinking. I have a feeling about this question that there was a time in my life when I would have agreed with the "He deserves it" gang. And then I feel I moved forward.
Happens in a lot of things - I used to think obedience to a superior (parents, teachers, etc.) - was the right thing. Even obedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
The thing is there is no going backwards. I can't imagine ever approving of capital punnishmant any more than my believeing that the Pope is always right.
Happens in a lot of things - I used to think obedience to a superior (parents, teachers, etc.) - was the right thing. Even obedience to the teachings of the Catholic Church.
The thing is there is no going backwards. I can't imagine ever approving of capital punnishmant any more than my believeing that the Pope is always right.
VanB
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Freescorfr
Some people do believe in some people don't believe in capital punishment. I'm not sure that this is the the question at the heart of the he deserved it comments.
He happened to commit capital crimes in a state that will carry out the death sentence. He deserved to be punished to the full extent of the applicable laws. Had the crimes been committed in the UK he would have received a life sentence, been on the streets after 7 years and probably re-offended.
To me that is an infinitely greater crime against society than taking the life of a murderer.
Some people do believe in some people don't believe in capital punishment. I'm not sure that this is the the question at the heart of the he deserved it comments.
He happened to commit capital crimes in a state that will carry out the death sentence. He deserved to be punished to the full extent of the applicable laws. Had the crimes been committed in the UK he would have received a life sentence, been on the streets after 7 years and probably re-offended.
To me that is an infinitely greater crime against society than taking the life of a murderer.
freescorfr
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scylis said:well, that's one down. now when will we start on the rest of them brits?
My dear scylis,
He's not down he's dead.
What does CLIT stand for?
When are you lot going to cut your emmissions and stop threatening life on earth - your own included and more importantly that of your gandchildren?
freescorfr
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scylis said:you shall bow down before the C·L·I·T, infidel!
bow!
I know about the tree-dwelling bit, clit.
But where will you live when there are no trees?
freescorfr
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bluespoke said:
Dear bluespoke,
I find your attitude to the execution of a fellow human being - even a brutal murder - inconsitent with the Robert Burns signature you use.
KillerMuffin
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I have to agree with the Athenian ideal of Capital Punishment. If the criminal is so dangerous to society that he must be killed, then it should be done in 24 hours. If it's not done immediately, then the criminal was obviously not that much of a danger to society.
We are a species that enjoys murdering, plundering, hurting, destroying, stealing from, and in general doing bad things to other members of our species. That is a fact.
The US follows the M'Naughten rule, just as the UK does. To be insane the defendant must not have known the difference between right and wrong at the time of the crime. Mental illness, incompetency, or any other mental debility is not sufficient to be considered insane. Why not? If a mentally disabled person commits a crime knowing it's wrong, then that person is willfully breaking the law just as if a perfectly competent sane person is. The law is clear, the law is reasonable, and the law has nothing to do with making excuses for bad behavior.
The interesting thing here is the willingness of people to make excuses and behave leniently toward criminals who knew they were committing a crime when they did it. When you know you are doing wrong and still do it, that makes you responsible for your own actions and accountable for them no matter who you are or how disturbed you may be. Mental incapacitation is no excuse for committing crime.
This whole US/UK who made the guy a creep argument is utter bullpuckey. The only reason his citizenship was ever in question was when someone saw the opportunity to try to get the death penalty rescinded. If he was serving life in prison it never would have come it, would it? Why dredge all of that up now. The man was a bad person no matter who he was, where he come from, or what societal factors went in to making him that way. He made his choices and he had ample opportunity to be a decent person. He chose his path all on his own and now he has paid the price for it as dictated by the laws of the place where he broke them.
We are a species that enjoys murdering, plundering, hurting, destroying, stealing from, and in general doing bad things to other members of our species. That is a fact.
The US follows the M'Naughten rule, just as the UK does. To be insane the defendant must not have known the difference between right and wrong at the time of the crime. Mental illness, incompetency, or any other mental debility is not sufficient to be considered insane. Why not? If a mentally disabled person commits a crime knowing it's wrong, then that person is willfully breaking the law just as if a perfectly competent sane person is. The law is clear, the law is reasonable, and the law has nothing to do with making excuses for bad behavior.
The interesting thing here is the willingness of people to make excuses and behave leniently toward criminals who knew they were committing a crime when they did it. When you know you are doing wrong and still do it, that makes you responsible for your own actions and accountable for them no matter who you are or how disturbed you may be. Mental incapacitation is no excuse for committing crime.
This whole US/UK who made the guy a creep argument is utter bullpuckey. The only reason his citizenship was ever in question was when someone saw the opportunity to try to get the death penalty rescinded. If he was serving life in prison it never would have come it, would it? Why dredge all of that up now. The man was a bad person no matter who he was, where he come from, or what societal factors went in to making him that way. He made his choices and he had ample opportunity to be a decent person. He chose his path all on his own and now he has paid the price for it as dictated by the laws of the place where he broke them.
freescorfr
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That's true KM and so is your point about nationality, which has nothing to do with it.
But is every law a good law? I maintain that a law which demands the killing, by the state, of another human being is not a good law. It may be a legitimately established law, but whole societies can back the wrong horse.
In my mind the taking of another human life diminishes us all.
KillerMuffin
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I firmly believe that current death penalty law is wrong. I do believe that there is a place for capital punishment in our society, but we are abusing that penalty. We use it for revenge or justice, not for the purpose of protecting society from the monsters among us. In my view, the definition of a human monster is extremely narrow applies to people who are highly psychotic, but not legally insane. Capital punishment isn't a deterrent and it isn't rehabilitation. It has no purpose but to keep society safe from monsters that are so dangerous that they endanger society just by being alive. There are maybe a handful of those in the world, if that. Certain sado-sexual killers and mass murderers. In my view these people have no place in society. If a dog has rabies, you put it down. These people have something much worse than rabies.
You should also understand that I don't believe that human life is sacred. It has a tremendous value, but I don't believe it should be held sacrosanct above all else. As humanity stands now, we will never transcend the beast still inherent in the human id despite the civility we carry as a veneer.
You should also understand that I don't believe that human life is sacred. It has a tremendous value, but I don't believe it should be held sacrosanct above all else. As humanity stands now, we will never transcend the beast still inherent in the human id despite the civility we carry as a veneer.
SweetBrat73
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freescorfr said:
You may feel you have "moved forward" in your thinking, but the same can be said for ppl who used to disagree with the death penalty and now agree with it. They feel they have "moved forward" in their thinking too.
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Why is it that ppl don't believe in the death penalty anyhow??? Why should we have to support these crinimals untill the end of their natural life??? I seriously think that my tax money could be better spent. Hell most ppl in prison have it better than alot of ppl on the outside. People are struggling to make ends meet, can't afford health care at all, don't have enough to eat, can't afford a college education, etc, etc, etc. Yet a person sitting in a federal or state prison get free health care...maybe not always the best, but at least they get something. They get free educations so that they can tie up the legal system with their bullshit, they get 3 meals a day, cable television, a gym with workout equipment, damn they even get paid to work
Brat
freescorfr
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KM wrote
This is very important for me since it is easy to confuse the anti-capital punishment issue with anti-abortion and euthanasia. They are quite separate issues which pivot on your point KM tha human life is not sacred in the sense that there are not circumstances in which one person may decide to end the life of another quite justifiably. For me, this isn't one of them.
Brat says
I think it's not possible to move back to where you were before. I wonder if p_pman would decribe his beliefs as the same as those he had before or that he has come to a conclusion he held before because his beliefs have moved forward a bit more.
Yes, it sound arrogant to me to say "my beliefs are more developed than yours". I can't say that. Your point strikes me as pretty fair.
This is very important for me since it is easy to confuse the anti-capital punishment issue with anti-abortion and euthanasia. They are quite separate issues which pivot on your point KM tha human life is not sacred in the sense that there are not circumstances in which one person may decide to end the life of another quite justifiably. For me, this isn't one of them.
Brat says
I think it's not possible to move back to where you were before. I wonder if p_pman would decribe his beliefs as the same as those he had before or that he has come to a conclusion he held before because his beliefs have moved forward a bit more.
Yes, it sound arrogant to me to say "my beliefs are more developed than yours". I can't say that. Your point strikes me as pretty fair.
BustyTheClown
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Brat, I completely agree with you that it's an outrage that many people in prison live better than even some low-middle class families (in the States -- I'm ashamed to admit I don't know much about other countries' stats). It infuriates me that they should have more benefits and luxuries than a lot of other people. After all, they're in prison to be punished for their crime and secluded from society for a time.
However, you are mistaken -- like so many others -- in thinking that it would cost more to house the prisoner for the rest of his life than it would to kill him. It costs significantly more to put a prisoner to death than it does to simply keep him in prison for the rest of his natural life. I'm afraid I don't have any specifics for you, but I've read it and heard it stated over and over again.
Just one among countless reasons why the death penalty should be done away with...
However, you are mistaken -- like so many others -- in thinking that it would cost more to house the prisoner for the rest of his life than it would to kill him. It costs significantly more to put a prisoner to death than it does to simply keep him in prison for the rest of his natural life. I'm afraid I don't have any specifics for you, but I've read it and heard it stated over and over again.
Just one among countless reasons why the death penalty should be done away with...
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