So how many Rap CDs did the killer punk own?

[WriterDom]

We always had access to guns. I got my first gun when I was 12 or 13. But these school shootings began once Rap became mainstream. Now I'm not blaming Rap exclusively, but you have to wonder with millions of kids with very little else in their brains are mouthing, "gonna put a muther fucking cap in yo ass," 50 times a day.

 

[Max]

You may have a valid point, WD..

 

[Madame Pandora]

I love this arguement.

Violence in music...violence on TV.

I got a question...

What was Jack the Ripper listening to?

MP

 

[Handy-Andy]

Or you may not

 

[WriterDom]

I got a question...

What was Jack the Ripper listening to?

MP

Probably the same voice... Satan doesn't need a CD player to speak to people

 

[Madame Pandora]

Probably the same voice... Satan doesn't need a CD player to speak to people

ROFLMAO! Touché babe!

 

[Ask For More]

Well I can't help but treat the idea with cynicism...i'm not trying to be sarcastic or anything, but I just don't think it's prudent to blame things like murder or violence on things like television and music.

For example, I saw a segment on tv last week which showed a couple of kids who had killed their friends/cousins while trying to imitate WWF. The program placed the blame squarely on wrestling and the violence that is implied. To me this seemed too much. The WWF runs ads frequently saying "Don't try this at home" and stressed on the amount of hard work and training wrestlers have to go through. So who's to blame?

I saw another segment the week before which focused on a guy who worked in a old people's home which had caught fire, and the guy had fought his way through the flames to save some of the residents. He said he was inspired by the Rock's "It doesn't matter! attitude in WWF, and I believe he got to meet the Rock and the Rock called him the true people's hero.....now this may sound a bit unbelievable but it's just the flip side; positive acts being inspired in this case.

While i'm not disagreeing that enviroment and upbringing can affect a child's personality a lot, I think that it depends more on the child rather than the actual enviroment. I come from a lower class area and have a lot of friends who are decent people who strive to make the best of themselves, we've listened to rap music since we were young, and watched violent films but we're just ordinary kinda guys. But then there are some people who are just bad news. That's the flip side....

 

[Beebeeblue]

For example, I saw a segment on tv last week which showed a couple of kids who had killed their friends/cousins while trying to imitate WWF. The program placed the blame squarely on wrestling and the violence that is implied. To me this seemed too much. The WWF runs ads frequently saying "Don't try this at home" and stressed on the amount of hard work and training wrestlers have to go through. So who's to blame?

There was a kid in FL I think that killed a 6 or 7 yr old girl. He was 14 and weighed like 200lbs or something. The reports said her injuries were the same as falling out of a 3-story window. It was a sad story. He told his mom she got hurt hitting her head on the coffee table. But in the end, he said he was just imitating what he saw on TV.

TV violence, or music, should not be the sole blame for the way our kids act. Personally, I see my daughters actions as an example of the way I raise her.

 

[BrainyBeauty]

the not- so- popular view

There was a similar thread recently where someone mentioned that music has always been blamed as the downfall of society. They suggested that our parents didn't like the Beatles or Elvis or suggestive lyrics or hip swiveling.

While I can't solely blame rap music as the spark of a generation's collapse, I do think there is a correlation.
(BTW, I lay the blame squarely on the shoulders of the incompetent parents)

One can safely argue that listening to "Hound Dog" or "I Wanna Hold Your Hand" or seeing Elvis shake his hips or the *gasp* long hair of the Beatles never really inspired anyone to go out and shoot up their classmates.

Truly there is no comparison between "She loves you yeah yeah yeah" or "I'll tell you something I think you'll understand When I say that something I want to hold your hand" to

"Left the keys in the van, with a gat in each hand
Went up in Eastland and shot a policeman
Fuck a peace plan of citizen bystands
But shit is in my hands, here's your life span"

or

"I'm Dr. Hyde and Mr. Jekyl Disrespectful
Hearing voices in my head while these whispers echo
"Murder Murder Redrum" Brain size of a bread crumb
Which drug will I end up dead from
Inebriated, till my stress is eleviated
"How in the fuck can Eminem and shady be related?"

But, again, it's not just the music or the movies or the tv shows. It's a lack of proper upbringing and teaching. Parents who, themselves, can't distinguish between right and wrong or don't care to pass that along to their children, have now begat a generation of selfish, remorseless youth. That's more than my two cents worth.

 

[Madame Pandora]

I agree, there is probably an influencing element in the music. But art is more often a REFLECTION...not an instigation.

If the kids weren't RELATING to the music, it wouldn't be popular.

I think a great many of us who sit at home with out computers in our moderately safe neighborhoods really don't have the proper perspective of this.

There are kids out there every day with guns. There are kids living in crack-infested streets. The music is the least of their influences.

To be serious, I don't think this is a "one issue" problem. It's not JUST irresponsible parents, it's not JUST the movies and the TV shows and the music, it's not JUST the NRA. It's our society as a whole.

Most of us, everyday, drudge on with our lives without ANY thought about the people out there who sleep in places we wouldn't throw up in. Because the problem seems SO out of control, we don't know how to fix it. So, we play the comfortable blame game. It's their fault because they're strung out on drugs - it's their fault because they won't get off welfare - it's their fault because they won't teach their children right from wrong.

And we blame TV and we blame music. And we blame anything we can think of because the fact is, we don't want to blame who we're REALLY afraid is at fault. Ourselves. For our indifference.

Don't get me wrong, I'm the first person to say it's a short ride and you have to grab hold of all the joy you can while you're here. This is a great paradox that never fails to bewilder me. It seems as old as mankind itself. Even in the Bible, you have Jesus saying “For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.” (Matthew 26:11) That line has always puzzled me. Even the being credited with the most charity of all time, seemed to say sometimes you’ve just got to look at the good things you have.

So…basically, personally, I just try to muster through best I can, do what I can, and hope I’ve contributed to enough of a difference. Although, I think until we evolve more as a species, that’s more than a little improbable.

But it’s not the music and it’s not TV and it’s not the movies. It’s not any one thing.

And I don’t think it matters how many rap CDs they had or didn’t have, or how many copies of the Communist Manifesto or how many piercings or how many beer cans lined up on their window sills. If they hadn’t found an outlet or a justification in one they would have found it in another.

Just MHO

MP

 

[TonyG]

Originally posted by Madame Pandora
I agree, there is probably an influencing element in the music. But art is more often a REFLECTION...not an instigation. If the kids weren't RELATING to the music, it wouldn't be popular.
Exactly correct, however, because they RELATE to the music or other forms of 'art', it does INSTIGATE them, in some cases, to follow suit. Those kids who killed others using WWF wrestling moves were instigated by their relationship with the popular genre. If they did not watch it they would never had thought to do it. They were not reflecting on anything.


There are kids out there every day with guns. There are kids living in crack-infested streets. The music is the least of their influences.
I would not say the least.


To be serious, I don't think this is a "one issue" problem. It's not JUST irresponsible parents, it's not JUST the movies and the TV shows and the music, it's not JUST the NRA. It's our society as a whole. Most of us, everyday, drudge on with our lives without ANY thought about the people out there who sleep in places we wouldn't throw up in.
But there are many of us who do think about it and who do care and who do try to make a difference. These people are both working from the outside and some work from within those places. Maybe from your perspective it is most of us but not mine.


Because the problem seems SO out of control, we don't know how to fix it. So, we play the comfortable blame game. It's their fault because they're strung out on drugs - it's their fault because they won't get off welfare - it's their fault because they won't teach their children right from wrong.
Much of the time it is. There are people who purposely will not try to get off of welfare; who will do drugs even hearing and seeing the deadly results; who too easily say 'not my kid' when a teacher tries to warn them.
Many things have been done to educate all about these problems but many do not want to listen. Sure, more needs to be done and it is by far not widespread enough but people who create their problems today MUST start to take the blame. To push the blame to the general society is their copout.


And we blame TV and we blame music. And we blame anything we can think of because the fact is, we don't want to blame who we're REALLY afraid is at fault. Ourselves. For our indifference.
Not true, we blamed ourselves years ago and recognized we were not doing enough so we met with community and church leaders which resulted in many programs being started across the country. Many of these programs failed at first but several have been highly successful and more have been initiated. Yes, some of society is still indifferent but so are some of these individuals who are in trouble. It's a two way street now.


So…basically, personally, I just try to muster through best I can, do what I can, and hope I’ve contributed to enough of a difference. Although, I think until we evolve more as a species, that’s more than a little improbable.

Saying that we need to evolve more as a species is not contributing anything. That is putting the blame elsewhere.
Send some dollars to a foundation fighting drug abuse or violence in music and tv, volunteer an hour a week in a homeless shelter, tutor a troubled youth in a school topic you have knowledge, become a pen pal to a child of a poor family...that is contributing.

You are very correct to say it is not one thing but it is no longer just our indifference.

 

[Problem Child]

MP is right, uh kinda, *wince*

We as a society are to blame. I agree, and it's not one or two things that cause these kids to go off, either.

But I also think that the family structure has eroded to such a level in this country that there is no way you can't blame the parents of these killers.

Every one of these little Charlie Manson motherfuckers that has popped up in a schoolyard in the last 7 or 8 years has had little or no home life or parental supervision. I'll bet the proverbial left nut that this latest piece of crap is no different.

These little monsters are picking up weapons and gunning down their classmates because no one is telling them that it's wrong, and teaching them that they will face dire consequences if they do it.

I know that "the parents are fucking irresponsible", is the last thing most parents want to hear. They'd rather blame it on guns, or movies, or the WWF, but it ain't that easy.

Start raising kids in two-parent families, or at least single parent families where the parent gives a shit, and the problem will begin to go away.



[Edited by Problem Child on 03-05-2001 at 06:56 PM]

 

[Madame Pandora]

Those kids who killed others using WWF wrestling moves were instigated by their relationship with the popular genre. If they did not watch it they would never had thought to do it. They were not reflecting on anything.

So you don't think these kids would have found another outlet for that aggression? That's more than a little naive.


But there are many of us who do think about it and who do care and who do try to make a difference. These people are both working from the outside and some work from within those places. Maybe from your perspective it is most of us but not mine.

Sorry, Tony. From now on I will preface every statement I make by saying "This does not necessarily refer to tony_gam. I was speaking in general terms. I didn’t have the time or the room to name everyone specifically. If you think that the MAJORITY of American society is focused like this, again, you are being more than a little naive.

Much of the time it is. There are people who purposely will not try to get off of welfare; who will do drugs even hearing and seeing the deadly results; who too easily say 'not my kid' when a teacher tries to warn them.
Many things have been done to educate all about these problems but many do not want to listen. Sure, more needs to be done and it is by far not widespread enough but people who create their problems today MUST start to take the blame. To push the blame to the general society is their copout.

Sure. By all means. Let's tell the people who shirk responsibility that they have to step up to bat. Let's tell people who've been trampled on by the system and who have grown up in conditions devoid of structure that it's their fault. Why we're at, let's let a few convicted bank robbers guard Fort Knox and tell them not to steal. There is this misconception that people who lack responsibility are that way by choice. This is pretty much the same logic that makes English speakers think foreigners will understand them better if they talk louder. Yes, more people need to take responsibility. But, they need to understand responsibility first. They need to have something to cherish and protect before that can happen. You and I have responsibility because it was taught to us. It is ingrained in our psyche. Not everyone is like this. Some people just struggle to get through the day. That is all they know.


Not true, we blamed ourselves years ago and recognized we were not doing enough so we met with community and church leaders which resulted in many programs being started across the country. Many of these programs failed at first but several have been highly successful and more have been initiated. Yes, some of society is still indifferent but so are some of these individuals who are in trouble. It's a two way street now.

I must have missed this memo. Certainly there are many creditable organizations all over the US with good people working hard to make a dent in this problem. To say you think we've got a handle on it and it's down to a two-way street...again, MORE than a little naive.

Saying that we need to evolve more as a species is not contributing anything. That is putting the blame elsewhere.

No. It's a sad fact of our nature. I didn’t say it negated our efforts, I just meant it works against us in the practical application of our attempts.

Send some dollars to a foundation fighting drug abuse or violence in music and tv, volunteer an hour a week in a homeless shelter, tutor a troubled youth in a school topic you have knowledge, become a pen pal to a child of a poor family...that is contributing.

Really? Wow. I had no clue. And to think I've been volunteering all these years without your guidance… Thank you for presuming you have ANY CLUE as to what I do and do not contribute.

You are very correct to say it is not one thing but it is no longer just our indifference.
I think my saying it was not just ONE thing I inferred it was not just our indifference, as our indifference would be…ummm…just ONE THING.

MP

 

[Laurel]

First of all, I'd like to say that my heart goes out to those in eastern San Diego county who've been affected by this tragedy.

As far as the theory that rap music has played any major part in any of these incidents, I personally have my doubts. Rap appeals to a wide variety of people, including females and most races & ages. Most, if not all, of these high-profile school shootings have been committed by white males. Certainly this doesn't disprove that there could be some relationship, but one would have to wonder how you could make a direct connection between what is essentially African-American urban music and a large number of white rural gunmen.

When I was a kid and something like this happened, parents tended to blame "heavy metal music". Before that, I'm sure it was Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, Chuck Berry, or any number of other un-parent-friendly entities.

The most violent and horrible things that I remember from my youth are not rap records, movies, or video games, but historical footage and reenactments of WWII and Viet Nam. Reading about and seeing the footage of Nazi atrocities, Hiroshima, and other horrific events affected me far more than any NWA record. To suggest that a single genre of music could cause young adults swimming in a sea of mixed messages, hormonal imbalances, peer pressures, and self-doubts to commit these terrible acts seems like quite a stretch.

 

[Problem Child]

It's really so sad.

When I was a kid, I used to have a .22 rifle in my pick-up all the time. Some of the fondest memories I had were spending an entire day plinking cans, along with the occasional squirrel, or bigass rat in the rice paddies. I was taught by adults that a gun was a weapon that could do immense damage to an animal or a person. It never occured to me to use it as a tool of revenge or hatred.

How do these kids get so FUCKED up, that they think the only way they can get any respect is by murdering their classmates?

Don't mind me, I'm just thinking out loud...

 

[CRaZy]

About the music...I don't believe music entices people to do anything, it's merely a symptom. If you are depressed for some reason you just gotta listen to country or the blues. If you are angry you will put on metal or rap. The point is these kids who commit these acts are already disturbed - the music REFLECTS their state of mind it doesn't CAUSE it. Having said that, Eminem has violent, racist, anti-women lyrics. When I challenge students at school who are listening to him on their walkmans, they REALLY can't see this in the words. Just like movies and TV shows, children should probably be a certain age before they listen to certain bands.

The cause of all the teenage violence? As someone has already stated, there is no one answer. It is always tempting to look for some one thing to blame when the answer really involves a complex range of societal issues. Having said that, from my own observations of violent students, we are currently living in a society of third generation drug addicts. The LSD hippies whose kids grew up to be smack addicts whose kids grew up to be crack users. The environmental and physical effects of this social phenomena have to manifest themselves somewhere. Perhaps this contributes in some small way to the teen violence we now see in schools.

 

[Ally C]

Here's what I think ...

Don't get me wrong, I'm the first person to say it's a short ride and you have to grab hold of all the joy you can while you're here. This is a great paradox that never fails to bewilder me. It seems as old as mankind itself. Even in the Bible, you have Jesus saying “For you always have the poor with you, but you will not always have me.” (Matthew 26:11) That line has always puzzled me. Even the being credited with the most charity of all time, seemed to say sometimes you’ve just got to look at the good things you have.

So…basically, personally, I just try to muster through best I can, do what I can, and hope I’ve contributed to enough of a difference. Although, I think until we evolve more as a species, that’s more than a little improbable.

I hope you don't mind me offering my interpretation of your biblical quote MP. I don't have a Bible at hand so this may be out of context, but I think Jesus was highlighting the fact that He wasn't going to be around (as a physical presence) for His followers forever. The 'poor' would be; which seems to be His way of saying that there is more to life (and religion) than 'following' someone. It is how we conduct our daily lives in relation to others (in this case the 'poor') which is more important than the actual act of 'following'. I guess at the time those words were spoken it would have been easy to follow Jesus (literally) as an end in itself. He was perhaps pointing out that after His 'departure', there would be more than enough ways to act out His teachings, if we were so inclined.

I note from above (and from a further post by you on this thread) that you have indeed been 'so inclined' ... it's heart-warming to know.

As for an 'evolution' of our species, I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that not only have we a long way to go, we don't really seem to have come that far in the first place.

And as for the 'Rap CD' question that started all of this, I'll stay out of the 'hypodermic' debate this time. People have been killing other people since time began. Whether we listen to Rap CDs or not might well be less of an issue as whether we have access to weapons which make the taking of another life / lives as quick and easy as the buying of a CD. If this viewpoint upsets you, and I know it upsets lots of people, feel free to reply in a way that suggests you aren't trigger happy ... There's a difference between shooting from the lip, and shooting from the hip.

 

[WriterDom]

As far as the theory that rap music has played any major part in any of these incidents, I personally have my doubts. Rap appeals to a wide variety of people, including females and most races & ages. Most, if not all, of these high-profile school shootings have been committed by white males. Certainly this doesn't disprove that there could be some relationship, but one would have to wonder how you could make a direct connection between what is essentially African-American urban music and a large number of white rural gunmen.

When I was a kid and something like this happened, parents tended to blame "heavy metal music". Before that, I'm sure it was Led Zeppelin, Rolling Stones, Chuck Berry, or any number of other un-parent-friendly entities.

Sadly, these urban African-American kids grow up with the echoes of gunfire. They see their friends shot down by drive bys. They learn to duck and cover before they learn to read. They spend most of their walking life worried about getting shot. And all this violence is almost celebrated in their music. So all this urban culture gets imported into the dull mundane safe white suburbia directly into the ears of latch key kids over and over again. It’s easy to glorify war if you’ve never experienced it. Kids are impressionable. They do weird things in the name of “coolness.” It would have been very uncool of me to suggest in 1975 that we should stick a piece of metal all the way thru our tongue and keep it in there forever. Stupid maybe, insane maybe, but definitely not cool.

Hollywood and Television have always saturated us with violence. But music was different. Sure, it celebrated love, sex, and drugs. But not random senseless violence. Yes, the parents blamed the music, but then you had to play the records backwards to hear the devil.

[Edited by WriterDom on 03-06-2001 at 06:02 AM]

 

[TonyG]

Well, at least some of the people around this kid were concerned and alarmed enough to question the kid about his intentions, even going as far as frisking him Monday in school. Unfortunately they opted to give him the benefit of the doubt instead of calling authorities. But they were not indifferent. The one gentleman tried contacting the father several times but to no avail.

Rap music, nor any other form, in this instance was not the culprit; it has been said the kid’s favorite song is Lincoln Park, a hard rock tune. But even so, this kid was not from a ‘poor’ neighborhood nor a drug infested inner city home. Actually, most of these recent attacks have been in suburban middle-to-upper class areas where society HAS been preaching and teaching about problems of this nature. This kid did not dream up these events on his own. His mindset fed off of past events which contributed in making him a follower of violence as a solution to his problems. He had been taught right from wrong, at least in his school. Can the same be said for his homelife?

Having volunteered my time for the past 13 years with a program for less fortunate youth, I have become very familiar with the ‘NOT MY PROBLEM’ syndrome. I hear:
I can’t drive my kid to the program because I don’t have the gas money - but they do for cigarettes,
Yes, I know my kid is failing math - but they are out at the bar at night instead of working with their child
If my kid hit that other kid then he had a good reason to do it - yeah the other kid beat your kid in a race

I am very upset at this latest round of attacks, as most people, but I am just as upset at the NAIVETY of people who want to blame society, or music, or the teachers, or the churches and worse yet BELIEVE society just sits back on its laurels or needs to evolve. Wake up and do some preventive maintenance in your own household. It might just save your kid or your neighbor’s kid some day. Ask yourself, do I let my kid play computer games with a high violence rating? One where you pick out your weapons and score points based on how well you do the kill? Teaching right and wrong starts in the home and NEVER ends as one of a parent's jobs. Society WILL help but it can be too late if you don't start and continue it yourself. Luckily the majority of us do but too many still do not.

 

[Flagg]

I think that it is Madam Pandora's picture icon that is to blame.

 

[CreamyLady]

The Quality of Mercy

I agree that there is not just one thing that one can point to for blaming purposes.

I'm wondering, though, whatever happened to empathy -- the ability to know what another is feeling, or would feel, in a given situation.

As children, we learn about disappointment from the word "no." "No, you can't have a cookie." "No, you can't stay up late." "No, you can't go to Magic Mountain with Jimmy's brother -- the one who's had his license suspended twice."

We learn about anger, and frustration, and the politics of the sandbox early, too. There is always someone bigger, stronger, cooler, faster, smarter -- and always someone less so. From being in the middle of the pecking order, one can learn how to peck, or how to cooperate.

We should also be learning empathy, too -- if I am so hurt and angry when Freddy calls me stupid, then maybe Jessica will be hurt and angry when I call her stupid. If I bleed when Mark beats me up, then maybe Jason will bleed when I beat him up.

Somehow, though, the empathy thing isn't coming through. The lesson that seems to be learned is basic survival -- look out for Number One, and to hell with everyone else. Only I matter. After watching the interactions at various PTA meetings over the years, it did occur to me that, as a society, we are doing our best to raise little sociopaths. Arming them makes perfect sense.

I don't know. These are just more depressing thoughts on a monstrously depressing subject.

 

[Madame Pandora]

Re: Here's what I think ...

If this viewpoint upsets you, and I know it upsets lots of people, feel free to reply in a way that suggests you aren't trigger happy ... There's a difference between shooting from the lip, and shooting from the hip.

Ally, you need an email address

I don't see any offence in anything you posted. Well said.

MP

 

[Ally C]

If this viewpoint upsets you, and I know it upsets lots of people, feel free to reply in a way that suggests you aren't trigger happy ... There's a difference between shooting from the lip, and shooting from the hip.

Ally, you need an email address

I don't see any offence in anything you posted. Well said.

MP

I have an email address, I'll get the hang of this one day - expect an update soon.

 

[eastcoastbaby]

when i first read the thread here, i honestly thought that it was tongue in cheek....the idea that anyone would blame music, tv or anything else to me is not understandable at all...
in my humble opinion, alot of it has to do with role models..think back to when you were younger...my role models were my parents, for better or worse, my adult neighbors, teachers...coaches
now the big influence is football players, who seem to be in more troubles then our kids, musicans who dont know shit from shinola...and basically everyone, but the people who know and love these kids.
we have to know who our kids are hanging out with, and be willing to be the bad guy sometime...i find that my 15 year old listens when i tell her that i dont like the vibe i get from one of her friends...but how do i know if i dont take the time to get to know them in the first place

 

[Digger Troll]

Digger Troll Says Hello!