So, high-speed rail is a bondoggle? How about the whole airline industry?

LJ_Reloaded

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So, is this editorial article factually wrong?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/opinion/the-unprofitable-skies.html

EDITORIAL
The Unprofitable Skies
Published: December 11, 2011

For travelers facing down another holiday season of crowded flights, American Airlines’ filing for bankruptcy protection may be more bad news. The company’s employees and pensioners are already bracing for job and benefit cuts. Yet the pain brought on by a big bankruptcy is unlikely to transform the industry into a profitable one.

Almost all the nation’s big airlines have steered a course into Chapter 11 over the last decade. They all shared one main objective: getting out from under labor contracts they claimed they could not afford. American was one of the few that avoided bankruptcy in the 2000s. Its parent company, AMR, argues that its annual labor costs are about $800 million higher than those of its rivals. Bankruptcy will give American leeway to cut pay and benefits by allowing it to reopen union contracts. It will also allow the company to drop its pension plan into the lap of the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which would have to plug a $9 billion deficit. If it did so, retirees whose pensions exceeded the P.B.G.C.’s cap — from $4,653 a month for those retired at 65 to $2,094 for those retiring at 55 — would see their benefits drop.

Using bankruptcy to lift these obligations — as many carriers have — has not made the industry more profitable in the long run. While the nation’s carriers made $4 billion last year, that is not the norm. American alone lost $10 billion in the last 10 years. Severin Borenstein of the University of California, Berkeley, estimates that airlines lost $54 billion from 2000 to 2009 on their domestic routes. In the 33 years since the deregulation of the industry in 1978, they reported negative net income in 23 years.

Travelers would lose if American cut flights on less profitable routes, reducing competition. Some analysts think that American could cut capacity by up to 10 percent, paring operations on routes on which it has a low market share, like Boston to New York.

The airline bankruptcies of the past decade were often followed by big mergers, including those of US Airways and America West, Delta and Northwest, and United and Continental. If American follows the recipe (some analysts have suggested US Airways as a partner), three big airlines would control 70 percent of the national market. Such concentration is unlikely to spur airlines to improve a dismal record on consumer satisfaction. The industry’s long-term lack of profitability is bad for consumers, employees and investors. But bankruptcy filings and megamergers may not fix the problem.
 
Not every "industry" needs to be "profitable." There are such things as public utilities.
 
The airline bankruptcies of the past decade were often followed by big mergers, including those of US Airways and America West, Delta and Northwest, and United and Continental. If American follows the recipe (some analysts have suggested US Airways as a partner), three big airlines would control 70 percent of the national market. Such concentration is unlikely to spur airlines to improve a dismal record on consumer satisfaction. The industry’s long-term lack of profitability is bad for consumers, employees and investors. But bankruptcy filings and megamergers may not fix the problem.

I think the underlying problem is that there are too many people flying that cannot really afford it by real life standards. If you upped prices to reflect real costs the industry would shrink with resulting job losses etc.

So the industry staggers along carrying the contradiction.
 
I'd take high speed trains. I like trains. The one to Chicago takes longer than it does to drive. If they cut the time down with high speed I'd take it a lot more often. Oh, and a dining car and possibly a murder mystery. Everyone loves a good murder mystery on a train.
 
Just a bit of quick reading suggests that it is unions that are currently the problem. They weren't prior to the deregulation but it seems like the companies were making money prior to being deregulated and being forced to compete. I'm just curious with what. You can't ALL go bankrupt at the same time because of unions. That doesn't even make sense.
 
I think the underlying problem is that there are too many people flying that cannot really afford it by real life standards. If you upped prices to reflect real costs the industry would shrink with resulting job losses etc.

So the industry staggers along carrying the contradiction.


Just a bit of quick reading suggests that it is unions that are currently the problem. They weren't prior to the deregulation but it seems like the companies were making money prior to being deregulated and being forced to compete. I'm just curious with what. You can't ALL go bankrupt at the same time because of unions. That doesn't even make sense.
So far Shoulderblade offers the most plausible answer to the quandry you presented. We've already got airline pilots living on food stamps. How much lower do their wages have to go?
 
Forgive me for not taking your word for it that Airline workers are on foodstamps. At least if they are in two income households like the rest of us. (we can debate whether that's a good plan or not later. *it's not*) but I'd like to see what they make over all.

After that I'd be interested in seeing if there are various ways the systems can be mixed. Plan A had prices far to high for the average person to pay. Plan B had profits too low for the industry to survive. Perhaps either plan AB or plan C can find a happy medium. Clearly nothing tried as worked.
 
Not every "industry" needs to be "profitable." There are such things as public utilities.

First as someone from Boston flying to NY makes no sense unless it s a rare occasion where you have to change planes for an international flight.

Second American by doing this can renegoiate the union contracts to make it more profitable no problem with that.

Finally we should support an airline that kicks Alec Baldwin off.
 
where will the money come from? shall obama print more? remember, if they keep on printing money to pay for obama debt, ask your self this....who will want an American dollar?




So, is this editorial article factually wrong?

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/12/opinion/the-unprofitable-skies.html

EDITORIAL
The Unprofitable Skies
Published: December 11, 2011

For travelers facing down another holiday season of crowded flights, American Airlines’ filing for bankruptcy protection may be more bad news. The company’s employees and pensioners are already bracing for job and benefit cuts. Yet the pain brought on by a big bankruptcy is unlikely to transform the industry into a profitable one.

Almost all the nation’s big airlines have steered a course into Chapter 11 over the last decade. They all shared one main objective: getting out from under labor contracts they claimed they could not afford. American was one of the few that avoided bankruptcy in the 2000s. Its parent company, AMR, argues that its annual labor costs are about $800 million higher than those of its rivals. Bankruptcy will give American leeway to cut pay and benefits by allowing it to reopen union contracts. It will also allow the company to drop its pension plan into the lap of the federal Pension Benefit Guaranty Corporation, which would have to plug a $9 billion deficit. If it did so, retirees whose pensions exceeded the P.B.G.C.’s cap — from $4,653 a month for those retired at 65 to $2,094 for those retiring at 55 — would see their benefits drop.

Using bankruptcy to lift these obligations — as many carriers have — has not made the industry more profitable in the long run. While the nation’s carriers made $4 billion last year, that is not the norm. American alone lost $10 billion in the last 10 years. Severin Borenstein of the University of California, Berkeley, estimates that airlines lost $54 billion from 2000 to 2009 on their domestic routes. In the 33 years since the deregulation of the industry in 1978, they reported negative net income in 23 years.

Travelers would lose if American cut flights on less profitable routes, reducing competition. Some analysts think that American could cut capacity by up to 10 percent, paring operations on routes on which it has a low market share, like Boston to New York.

The airline bankruptcies of the past decade were often followed by big mergers, including those of US Airways and America West, Delta and Northwest, and United and Continental. If American follows the recipe (some analysts have suggested US Airways as a partner), three big airlines would control 70 percent of the national market. Such concentration is unlikely to spur airlines to improve a dismal record on consumer satisfaction. The industry’s long-term lack of profitability is bad for consumers, employees and investors. But bankruptcy filings and megamergers may not fix the problem.
 
After that I'd be interested in seeing if there are various ways the systems can be mixed. Plan A had prices far to high for the average person to pay. Plan B had profits too low for the industry to survive. Perhaps either plan AB or plan C can find a happy medium. Clearly nothing tried as worked.

Too many cooks spoil the broth. There may not be anything that works here.

You have:

Companies and investors who are looking for a higher profit despite other factors.

Unions that seek higher pay, benefits and job security for their own little clique.

Government would like lots of riders and employees they can tax.

The flying public that wants low fares and good service.

An inherently unstable situation. Would you invest in one of these airlines after seeing what happened at GM?
 
Too many cooks spoil the broth. There may not be anything that works here.

You have:

Companies and investors who are looking for a higher profit despite other factors.

Unions that seek higher pay, benefits and job security for their own little clique.

Government would like lots of riders and employees they can tax.

The flying public that wants low fares and good service.

An inherently unstable situation. Would you invest in one of these airlines after seeing what happened at GM?

Considering if nothing works then we need to scrap it I something MUST work. I'm not ultimately interested in what people WANT so much as what works.

I'm not sure comparing GM to the airlines is fair despite similar failures.
 
until we fix government, a national high speed rail system will be a cluster fuck of epic proportions. just look at the cost over runs for the Boston big dig. this will be peanuts.

doomed to fail due to too much fucked up government making fucked up decisions.




Too many cooks spoil the broth. There may not be anything that works here.

You have:

Companies and investors who are looking for a higher profit despite other factors.

Unions that seek higher pay, benefits and job security for their own little clique.

Government would like lots of riders and employees they can tax.

The flying public that wants low fares and good service.

An inherently unstable situation. Would you invest in one of these airlines after seeing what happened at GM?
 
until we fix government, a national high speed rail system will be a cluster fuck of epic proportions. just look at the cost over runs for the Boston big dig. this will be peanuts.

doomed to fail due to too much fucked up government making fucked up decisions.

Big Dig has nothing to do with HSR.
 
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