Snipers are cool and.....
- Thread starter loveyamon
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sweet soft kiss
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loveyamon said:
Interesting I will buy... Cool??
sweet soft kiss
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oh.. sorry.. I was thinking of snipers in the sense of the ones around DC... or that guy in the university clock tower... those are soliders... totally different thing...
The Heretic
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Yep, so different that those murderers are not considered to be snipers at all - although the press loves to sensationalize by calling them snipers, giving true snipers everywhere a bad name.sweet soft kiss said:
nimbus9
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I have a friend who was in the Nam, he was a sniper. Said he would climb a tree where he could see down the trail and pick them off. He would see about half a dozen gooks walking in line and start dropping them starting with the last man. He used a silencer and could get the lead guy before he knew he was all alone... He did two tours and tried to do a third but the Army said no way and let him go. He said he was getting to like killing to much.
Ishmael
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nimbus9 said:
Hmmmmmmmmm.
First of all silencers are next to useless with supersonic projectiles. Which all modern military rifle loadings are. Second of all, subsonic projectiles can be heard as they pass by unless they are of special design. And the barrels required for accuracy with subsonic projectiles require a much slower 'twist' than their high velocity counter-parts.
There were no 'official' deployments of Army snipers equiped with silencers in Viet Nam. Nor were there any deployed by the Marine Corps to the best of my knowledge.
Ishmael
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Yep, and there were never any US troops in Laos during the South Vietnamese offensive in 1971, and there were never any US troops in Cambodia, and the NVA/Vietcong body counts were completely accurate, and South Vietnamese troops never fired on US troops, and, and ,and... There was a hell of a lot of the unofficial stuff that never made it into the books or reports. For the record, I've heard that silencer bullshit too, and I've asked a couple of friends who were snipers about it. all I can tell you is according to them, somebody is being bullshitted.
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nimbus9
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If I could get in touch with my friend I would ask him some specifics. He told me what kind of rifle he used and some other stuff but it's been so long I just can't remember. I would never have thought my friend would do that because he is so mellow.
The Heretic
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The second most commonly claimed military occupation by people who probably didn't even see combat is as a sniper - especially since the movie. The first most claimed occupation is as a SEAL (there are probably three times as many people who claim to be a SEAL as there were actual SEALsnimbus9 said:
).Your friend made several mistakes that people who aren't knowledgeable in sniper craft often make:
1) He claimed to have used a silencer (more accurately referred to as a supressor) when these are very rarely used on rifles. While a supressor will supress the muzzle blast, it can do nothing for the supersonic crack of the projectile. While supressing the muzzle blast is very helpful in keeping the shooter hidden, it isn't typically used except in very special circumstances with rifles. But it is sexy and often seen in Hollywood - so your typical ignorant civilian (or even soldier) may claim to have used one.
2) He claimed to have sniped from a tree. While snipers have been known to use trees, they rarely do, especially in the jungle where cover is thicker on the ground than in a tree. Putting yourself up in a tree makes it difficult to camoflage yourself and very difficult to retreat after taking your shot - so it is almost suicidal in practice. Again, the ignorant neophyte doesn't know any better but it sounds cool.
3) Shooting the last man and moving forward is again right out of the movie that Hollywood did on Alvin York. 'nuff said.
4) He had to top it off with the macho "yep, I did two tours and tried to do a third, but the army figerred I was liking the killing too much". Please.
5) He claimed to be a sniper. Most snipers, SEALs, special forces, etc. - make no such claims and are rather reluctant to tell people about what they did.
loveyamon
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I must say I watched off and on for almost 2 hours, I must admit I don't recall them talking about or even showing silencers or supressors. It was very informational and very intresting to watch. I think Heritic and Ish make some valid points.
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Ishmael
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The US Army fielded the M-21 Sniper Weapon System in mid 1969. The system was based on the standard M-14 rifle. Until that time various bolt action rifles were used. Even the venerable M1-C model was used to a lesser extent.
There was a suppressed version of the M-21 that was experimented with in Viet Nam. These rifles were used by members of MACV-SOG and never saw unit deployment. They were designated as the XM-21 system.
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/Sniper_Rifle.htm
This was a 'supressed' weapon, not a 'silenced' weapon. And the primary purpose was to eliminate the muzzle flash. Muzzle flash being the best indication of the snipers position.
These tools were employed to hinder the enemy in deteremining the snipers location. If you've ever been down range from a high power rifle there is no doubt that you are under fire. Silenced or not.
At ranges of 400 meters or greater a good marksmen could get off a second aimed shot before the report of the rifle reached the enemy. However, the sonic 'crack' of the first bullet passing was a dead give away to any target that wasn't hit.
Ishmael
There was a suppressed version of the M-21 that was experimented with in Viet Nam. These rifles were used by members of MACV-SOG and never saw unit deployment. They were designated as the XM-21 system.
http://www.mst2-vietnam.info/Stoner_ordnance_notes/Sniper_Rifle.htm
This was a 'supressed' weapon, not a 'silenced' weapon. And the primary purpose was to eliminate the muzzle flash. Muzzle flash being the best indication of the snipers position.
These tools were employed to hinder the enemy in deteremining the snipers location. If you've ever been down range from a high power rifle there is no doubt that you are under fire. Silenced or not.
At ranges of 400 meters or greater a good marksmen could get off a second aimed shot before the report of the rifle reached the enemy. However, the sonic 'crack' of the first bullet passing was a dead give away to any target that wasn't hit.
Ishmael
The Heretic
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Unless you were there with him, or he could provide documentation, then you are basically taking his word for it. Even the most secure individual has been known to exaggerate their own importance with tall tales of what they have done in the past. I take leave to doubt this particular tale because it just has too many telltale clues with regard to probability to make me believe it. I am not saying it is impossible - of course it is possible, but it is highly unlikely.nimbus9 said:
I am not, nor have I ever been a sniper, SEAL or in any kind of special forces - but because I collect firearms, including one sniper rifle (interestingly it is setup for a supressor - but it is a very rare rifle), I am moderately conversant in the technology and the craft. It isn't too hard for me to sniff out the fakes when they make their claims because most of them haven't taken the time I have to learn the tech and the craft.
HeavyStick
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The only recorded use of silencers I can recall and have been witness to is CQB. It may not seem logical to bust into a room after a concussion grenade going off, but here is the logic behind it.
Counter Intelligence. Each shooter has a pattern, muscle memory, when they shoot. People who have trained hearing can tell how many shooters there are under controlled gunfire. (That and the direction of the muzzle and its echo greatly changes the sound of unsilenced weapons)
MP5's, AR-15's, .45ACP's, 9mm 92F's are some of the weapons used with silencers. Take note at the shorter range of these weapons. (Under 200 meters accurate).
The best shot ever taken in Vietnam was by Carlos Hathcock. A Marine Sniper who killed a Vietnam general. His weapon that day was a .50cal. 1100 meters one shot. Snipers know their secrecy and success lies in stealth and precision. Very few snipers have to shoot more than one shot. Two is rare for the same mission.
Your friend is full of shit.
Counter Intelligence. Each shooter has a pattern, muscle memory, when they shoot. People who have trained hearing can tell how many shooters there are under controlled gunfire. (That and the direction of the muzzle and its echo greatly changes the sound of unsilenced weapons)
MP5's, AR-15's, .45ACP's, 9mm 92F's are some of the weapons used with silencers. Take note at the shorter range of these weapons. (Under 200 meters accurate).
The best shot ever taken in Vietnam was by Carlos Hathcock. A Marine Sniper who killed a Vietnam general. His weapon that day was a .50cal. 1100 meters one shot. Snipers know their secrecy and success lies in stealth and precision. Very few snipers have to shoot more than one shot. Two is rare for the same mission.
Your friend is full of shit.
The Heretic
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Yeah, I caught some of it - I was mostly watching for the optics tech. Yesterday there was a show on snipers too and they had the Simrad NVD I wanted. Today they had a rifle scope that I think from the style was an ITT, but I haven't been keeping up on optics for a few years since I got laid off - no sense in teasing myself with something I can't buy right now.loveyamon said:
