Single Quotes vs. Double vs. Italics vs...

[AsylumSeeker]

Okay, I'd be interested in viewing your opinions on this subject. Not so much as it pertains to my own writing (although that may be helpful as well) but more for my editing.

I do know that when a character is speaking, such as "Hey Chuck!", double quotes are used. But here's the tricky part, and it all may boil down to personal preference in the end; or not, hence the question.

There are various methods for delineating thoughts. Such as My mind screamed for him to stop! or "My mind screamed for him to stop!" or 'My mind screamed for him to stop!'. Or maybe even My mind screamed for him to stop, with no delineation whatsoever.

Is there a definite right and wrong I need to be aware of as I continue to "grow" or 'grow' or grow or grow as an editor?

 

[AsylumSeeker]

A Better Example

It could be a thought, or even a noise. Here's one thing I'm seeing, and wondering about.

<I got up and pulled on the cord; a “ding” was heard.>

NOTE: Disregard the < and >, those are mine to delineate the pasted statement.

 

[sweetness6280]

There are various methods for delineating thoughts. Such as My mind screamed for him to stop! or "My mind screamed for him to stop!" or 'My mind screamed for him to stop!'. Or maybe even My mind screamed for him to stop, with no delineation whatsoever.

Warning, I'm using the < > to set off the the examples.

Speaking not as a writer, but as an literary analyst, there are indeed many ways to delineate thoughts. The most common in literature is the italics. However, the examples you used were not thoughts at all. <My mind screamed for him to stop.> is expository, giving you information about what the character was thinking. <My mind screamed, stop.> or in many cases <STOP.> are examples of the actual thoughts of the character. For instance, I recently read a book in which the protagonist was a young boy who had severe cerebral palsy, and could not speak. He was the narrator, and to delineate his thoughts from the narrative, the author utilized italics. As a device, it worked very well.

For example, <"He's an attractive man for his age," I thought.> would most likely be puntuated like regular dialogue. I find that somewhat confusing, especially if you are going to utilize a characters thoughts repeatedly. What I find common in lit is to simply italicize the actual thoughts of the character without any quotation marks.

Three ways to say the same thing, puntuated differently are:

<My heart raced as I felt his hands sliding down the front of my dress. My mind screamed for him to stop.>

<My heart raced as I felt his hands sliding down the front of my dress. My mind was screaming, although I could not speak. Stop.>

<My heart raced as I felt his hands sliding down the front of my dress. "Stop," I thought, my mind screaming out the words I could not speak.>

Obviously as a novice fiction writer, I am happy to defer to anyone who has a more authoritative reference.

 

[Agnol]

Sweetness I would have to pick the second option as the one I'd prefer to read of the examples you provided.

Or-
My heart raced as I felt his hands sliding down the front of my dress. Unable to speak, I screamed "Stop!" silently.

To me there is a confusion in intensity. If her mind is screaming she isn't 'thinking' stop, she's screaming it, right? I'm not saying that my sentence is any better, but that confusion between idle thought and screaming was what I was trying to work out.

As an aside, I normally post my stories in plain text format to Lit. Do I need to submit in Word in order to get italics to appear properly in my stories?

 

[Agnol]

Now that I think of it

I am currently working on a story with dueling internal dialogue. A light schizophrenia you might say, where the main character is argues with a part of herself that she doesn't recognize as herself.

Here is a small snippet:

“I don’t think we are quite there yet,” Marianne thought cautiously.
You’re just in denial, the voice replied.
“He’s my son, “ Marianne said aloud, immediately embarrassed as the two men in the elevator looked at her strangely. The voice left her alone until she got into her car.
You know what he was doing, it said matter of factly. And with your underwear no less.
“So?” Marianne shot back. “Boys do strange stuff, it’s all part of growing up.”
He’ll end up like his father. Marianne gasped as the words echoed in her mind. The remainder of the drive home she struggled with guilt and fought back the tears that threatened to break free.

The struggle between the character and this other part of her is central to the story and I know that if it is too awkward or difficult to follow the reader will give up on it.
Any suggestion is helpful.

 

[sr71plt]

Okay, I'd be interested in viewing your opinions on this subject. Not so much as it pertains to my own writing (although that may be helpful as well) but more for my editing.

I do know that when a character is speaking, such as "Hey Chuck!", double quotes are used. But here's the tricky part, and it all may boil down to personal preference in the end; or not, hence the question.

There are various methods for delineating thoughts. Such as My mind screamed for him to stop! or "My mind screamed for him to stop!" or 'My mind screamed for him to stop!'. Or maybe even My mind screamed for him to stop, with no delineation whatsoever.

Is there a definite right and wrong I need to be aware of as I continue to "grow" or 'grow' or grow or grow as an editor?

In the American system, the first level of quote marks is always double quotes (Chicago Manual of Style, 11.33). The British system is more complex on which to use when (single/double quotes), but we needn't go there for posting at Lit., which prefers the American system.

If you follow current publishing style, thoughts are rendered either directly in roman type face or inside quote marks (just like dialogue) (CMA, 11.47). In its latest edition, CMA dropped the use of italics to show interior discourse (thoughts), but I still think that's the clearest signaling of thoughts as opposed to spoken words (direct discourse).

I agree that the example you give (My mind screamed for him to stop!) is direct narration of a thought, not a thought (which would be: My mind screamed: Stop!).

 

[sr71plt]

I am currently working on a story with dueling internal dialogue. A light schizophrenia you might say, where the main character is argues with a part of herself that she doesn't recognize as herself.

Here is a small snippet:

“I don’t think we are quite there yet,” Marianne thought cautiously.
You’re just in denial, the voice replied.
“He’s my son, “ Marianne said aloud, immediately embarrassed as the two men in the elevator looked at her strangely. The voice left her alone until she got into her car.
You know what he was doing, it said matter of factly. And with your underwear no less.
“So?” Marianne shot back. “Boys do strange stuff, it’s all part of growing up.”
He’ll end up like his father. Marianne gasped as the words echoed in her mind. The remainder of the drive home she struggled with guilt and fought back the tears that threatened to break free.

The struggle between the character and this other part of her is central to the story and I know that if it is too awkward or difficult to follow the reader will give up on it.
Any suggestion is helpful.

As long as you maintain accuracy on which internal voice is saying what and don't get fast and furious in the exchange (which will toss the reader out of the ring in trying to keep it straight), I think you're using the best method open to you for this.

 

[sr71plt]

As an aside, I normally post my stories in plain text format to Lit. Do I need to submit in Word in order to get italics to appear properly in my stories?

I cut and paste into the text block from Word, and to show italics, I have to use the coding that uses side angle brackets < >, rather than the square brackets used on this forum.

 

[AsylumSeeker]

Good information to consider, thanks!

 

[sweetness6280]

If you follow current publishing style, thoughts are rendered either directly in roman type face or inside quote marks (just like dialogue) (CMA, 11.47). In its latest edition, CMA dropped the use of italics to show interior discourse (thoughts), but I still think that's the clearest signaling of thoughts as opposed to spoken words (direct discourse).

Thanks for the clarification. I need to become more familiar with Chicaco Style, my academic writing requires MLA or APA depending upon the discipline.

I agree with your opinion on the italics.

 

[sr71plt]

Thanks for the clarification. I need to become more familiar with Chicaco Style, my academic writing requires MLA or APA depending upon the discipline.

I agree with your opinion on the italics.

Right, for fiction the Chicago Manual of Style is best (even the British systems lean heavily on it). And if you get accepted by a mainline U.S. publisher, that's what's going to be applied.

Although MLA is good for humanities work, it's really for nonfiction (especially literary criticism). Its subtitle is "for Writers of Research Papers." There's nothing in the MLA guide that covers fiction dialogue at all.

APA is for scientific works (and, again, nonfiction--not fiction). Its subtitle ("of the American Psychological Association") pretty much says it all.

Some here index the AP ("Associated Press Stylebook and Libel Manual"), which is strictly for report journalism (again, nonfiction).

Unfortunately, the most popular sources here seem to be channeling of Aunt Gertrude's cousin Vinnie - - or - - "I heard" -- or -- the ever-popular "I've always done it that way and nobody's ever said anything."

(Oh, and I've seen the Harvard online guide invoked--which, again, is only for nonfiction research papers and then only for Harvard University itself)

 

[DracheDD]

In its latest edition, CMA dropped the use of italics to show interior discourse (thoughts), but I still think that's the clearest signaling of thoughts as opposed to spoken words (direct discourse).

I agree with this.
Even if it isn't technically correct anymore, I still think italics are the easiest way to signal internal dialogue and most, if not all, readers will understand it that way.

 

[mynameisben]

"Quote and end quote, I quote. One more quote and we could have a gallon." -- Groucho Marx

 

[AsylumSeeker]

"Quote and end quote, I quote. One more quote and we could have a gallon." -- Groucho Marx

Close. It goes like this: quote, unquote, and quote.

 

[snoopercharmbrights]

Thoughts

There are six and ninety ways
Of constructing tribal lays,
And every single one of them is right.​

Thus spake Rudyard Kipling and I believe that applies here. When I write a novel the formatting conforms to my publisher's demands. I may not agree with their "correctness" but they are paying so they call the tune. The same goes for Literotica, and until they lay down rules, anything the author wants is fine.

If an author thinks that unmarked thoughts are OK then so be it, but I won't necessarily read the story through if I get confused. If the author uses italics or single quotes, I can handle either of those with equanimity.

If the author has some other way of showing thoughts, I will try to go along with it.

 

[emap]

What snoopy said. If your getting paid to write something use the format they want, if it is free use whatever way you want to.

Personally I construct my sentences in such a way that any thoughts that are actually there are clearly denoted as such. At least I try to do that. Not that I put a whole lot of thoughts into my stories anyway. Personally I think it is best to not format the readers mind with thoughts, instead I lay out the scene, the action and let them come up with their own thoughts. Actually led me to omit some dialogue in my latest story, which led to a few questions, which really is a good thing to me means they read it and were curious enough to ask me.

I have seen the italics to denote thought and the quotes which actually seems really wrong to me. When I was in school and they taught us quotation marks it was explained that quotation marks are used to denote conversation or something that was said by someone else in written or verbal form. Seriously it was said exactly like that, was 4th grade I think. I didn't bother to listen after that, they all said the same thing.

Of course they also explained that italics and quotation marks are also used to denote thoughts in some fiction works. Not that we could do that, we always had essays.

 

[sr71plt]

Sure, if the reader doesn't make any difference to you (or you don't care about having readers), do whatever you want. If you do want readers, however, and you want readers who concentrate on the story rather than your style idioscyncrasies, you might give a thought to using standardizations that they are comfortable reading--that don't intrude on the storyline. Just a thought . . . if you are posting here to be read.

(And, gee, if you are just writing for yourself, why don't you just write it and put in a drawer; why post it on Lit.?)

Interesting that this is in the Editor's Forum. What do you need editors for, anyway, as long as you like the way you styled and structured it? Screw the reader, right?

 

[LadyCibelle]

Sure, if the reader doesn't make any difference to you (or you don't care about having readers), do whatever you want. If you do want readers, however, and you want readers who concentrate on the story rather than your style idioscyncrasies, you might give a thought to using standardizations that they are comfortable reading--that don't intrude on the storyline. Just a thought . . . if you are posting here to be read.

(And, gee, if you are just writing for yourself, why don't you just write it and put in a drawer; why post it on Lit.?)

Interesting that this is in the Editor's Forum. What do you need editors for, anyway, as long as you like the way you styled and structured it? Screw the reader, right?

I've left you alone when you've been crapping and being mean to people all over the board, but you're in MY house now and I won't stand for it.

I bet you don't see anything wrong with your tone here, huh? Well, forgive me for giving a damn but I DO, so either you change your tone or you'll find me deleting each and every single post of yours that is mean and nasty to people.

Consider yourself warned!

 

[sr71plt]

I've left you alone when you've been crapping and being mean to people all over the board, but you're in MY house now and I won't stand for it.

I bet you don't see anything wrong with your tone here, huh? Well, forgive me for giving a damn but I DO, so either you change your tone or you'll find me deleting each and every single post of yours that is mean and nasty to people.

Consider yourself warned!

And you have such a sweet tone yourself (no teeth, but you do bitch to your best ability). Remember, you catch more flies (assuming that's what you want to catch) with honey rather than vingegar (or so I've been told).

Do you perhaps need to review the forum rules again, or are we going to have another round of you abusing them here? Or are you just baiting me to fight with you here? Not likely; you lack dimension.

And wouldn't your time/effort be better spent in cleaning up this collapsed VE program you supposedly are administering?

 

[LadyCibelle]

And you have such a sweet tone yourself (no teeth, but you do bitch to your best ability). Remember, you catch more flies (assuming that's what you want to catch) with honey rather than vingegar (or so I've been told).

Do you perhaps need to review the forum rules again, or are we going to have another round of you abusing them here? Or are you just baiting me to fight with you here? Not likely; you lack dimension.

And you catch a whole lot of flies with shit too....which is exactly what you are!

Abuse, schabuse, whatever! You're warned. You can agree or disagree with people without belittling their concern or opinion. Oh, I know, YOU need to belittle people to feel like a manly man but it doesn't win you any award from me.

I've said it time and time again....you give good advice when you want to....but your bedside manners leave a lot to be desired. Disagree with people as much as you want....you won't see me complain.

Belittle them, demean them or crap on them...and you'll see me jump at you quicker than you can say "spy in z-rated movie."

 

[sr71plt]

I've said it time and time again....you give good advice when you want to....

Ah, no, actually I've never seen you post that at all--what you posted was that my stories were crap.

I think you missed this, because I was adding it to my last one while you were posting, so I'll repeat:

And wouldn't your time/effort be better spent in cleaning up this collapsed VE program you supposedly are administering?

You really have a lot of housework to do here without pursuing your agenda with me, rattling off empty threats, or trying to abuse the forum rules to only have your voice heard.

 

[Lalah]

As a side note, you don't actually catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

 

[sr71plt]

As a side note, you don't actually catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

Yeah, I know (thanks), but if I'd pointed that out the first time it came up, there would have been spittal flung in all directions--or, I should say, more than there was.

 

[LadyCibelle]

Ah, no, actually I've never seen you post that at all--what you posted was that my stories were crap.

I think you missed this, because I was adding it to my last one while you were posting, so I'll repeat:

And wouldn't your time/effort be better spent in cleaning up this collapsed VE program you supposedly are administering?

You really have a lot of housework to do here without pursuing your agenda with me, rattling off empty threats, or trying to abuse the forum rules to only have your voice heard.

FYI: I don't administer the VE program. Laurel and Manu and whoever works with them do. Me, I'm only the lowly VE Forum Mod. I wish I was administering the VE program though. You're right, there's a whole lot of housekeeping that needs to be done there, unfortunately neither you nor me can do anything about it. I'm only ONE voice, you're only ONE voice, others only have ONE voice too, and all ours voices put together doesn't amount to anything more than ONE voice can do.

For countless time, I don't have a personal agenda against you. You're not important enough to me for me to have one. Ask anyone who have even a basic knowledge of me and they'll tell you, "LadyC doesn't get her hackles up very often. She does, though, when she sees people being bullied, demeaned or belittled." All things that you do overtly and covertly. Oh, I know you'll say that you're only trying to improve the writing standards around here....and it would be good and well if you did it nicely, but you don't.

I'm too lazy to do a search on every single time that you've bullied, demeaned or belittled people around here, but if I wasn't (too tired and lazy that is) I could post pages after pages of instances where you did.

Want me to look for them? I'm not daring you, I'm not even challenging you...but don't you dare say that you've never done those exact same thing I'm accusing you of. You wouldn't like the results!

As I said in my first post, in I don't know how long, to you; I've left you alone when you were being mean/nasty to other people in other Forums and/or threads. How the other forums deal with you is their problems if they're moderated, but in here, I'm the Mod and I won't let you scare people away without doing a thing.

PS: As for your stories being crap. It's my opinions and I stand by it. I've read two and it was enough for me to know that I didn't like your writing. What? Can't I have an opinion or are you the only one entitled to one?

 

[sr71plt]

Just stick to the forum rules in "administering" the forum and drop the silly empty threats.

And I don't mind that you don't like my stories--especially in terms of where our relative works stand on the Favorites list here. We're obviously in two different worlds.