Simplistic vs Intellectual poetry

[My Erotic Trail]

I read an article on 'simplistic poems vs intelligent poetry' and was astounded by what I had read.

The main market for poetry rests with Hallmark and the like. More money is involved in simplistic poetry than with intelligent poems. "Inspirational poetry books" being second to GREETING CARDS. They took the avergae reader and introduced them to all types of poetry that fell into two groups, simple and intellectual. The simplistic poems were chosen by more readers by a land slide.

clip~

"There are writers who submit poems that possess a great deal of intelligence or at least have shown that they have an expansive vocabulary and yet I find that alot of their poetry is choppy and more centered around the vocab then it is around the content and flow, and then I've read some simple worded poetry that just rocks, with content, flow etc."... by Bob Shank.

I admit that just because a poem has an extensive vocabulary that does not warrant intelligence, but the point I am looking at is that the majority prefer simple poems rather than battle to figure a poem out. This come to light as I was reading a 'site' on how to read poetry. It stated that you are intitled to your interpretation of a poem if the poem is not clearly stating its topic. (It is rather hard to ask William Shakespeare what he meant with his poetry, so interpretations by several top notch poets now are available, which do you believe to be right?)

What good does it do, to get your own interpretation of anothers write if it is not correct? I know from 'lit poetry' that we all enjoy different types of poems, some enjoy the puzzle poems and some do not. Some like the straight forward, simple writes others do not. Some despise ryhme where others marvel in them. I find nothing wrong with being intelligent but as one statement made relayed; not everyone understands the lit majors poetry even though it is suppose to be a shining example of how poetry is to be written.

Does it actually come down to the pattern that poets with an extensive vocabulary enjoy poetry with a unique vocabulary and those that lack the vocabulary will always favor the poetry that they understand. (plain and simple) and that reflects how our culture as a norm! We are a simplistic species that makes things complicated? (or vice versa)

I had to ask, for I feel this question is going to be different from each individual's likes and dislikes. They refered to the poet; Billy Collins (one of my favoites) as using simplicity in his stanzas to create great poems that reach the readers. I can't argue with that <grin

 

[Lauren Hynde]

There is a huge difference between simple and simplistic.

 

[Recidiva]

I think it has to do with telling people what they want to hear and what's easy, as opposed to telling harder truths. Hard to hear, hard to comprehend, hard to practice.

Kahlil Gibran is a beautiful poet, and nothing he says is easy or a platitude. His words about love are ones I turn to over and over when I'm troubled or in doubt, because instead of saying it's easy, it's fun, it's light, he portrays it in a way that make me touch a deeper truth about choosing to love and what that costs in idealism and comfort and selfishness, and puts me more in touch with the mystery of my own choice rather than being "shot with Cupid's bow"

So he's my image of an intellectual poet, as his themes resonate to things that are not necessarily comforting or easy, but true to him, and true to me if I examine myself carefully.

The Tao Te Ching is a simple intellectual poem, another one I turn to because the simple reflections of the words make me look deeper to their meanings, which are allegorical and continue on as far as you'd care to look.

So a poem that reflects only surfaces, only wishes, only dreams, only selfishness and single-dimensions, particularly telling you what you want to hear, is the difference between talking to a fake psychic who will tell you what the average person wants to hear in broad strokes, or meeting a truly gifted person who has managed to touch upon a truth, and share it fearlessly.

Do you want to read your horoscope in the newspaper or have a reading with Edgar Cayce?

 

[My Erotic Trail]

There is a huge difference between simple and simplistic.

<GRINN' ..."OH?"

Simple; plane or ordinary

Simplistic; unrealistic

Simplicity; the quality of being simple

thanks Lauren for clearing that up!

Simplicity vs Intelligence in poetry writing

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I think it has to do with telling people what they want to hear and what's easy, as opposed to telling harder truths. Hard to hear, hard to comprehend, hard to practice.

Kahlil Gibran is a beautiful poet, and nothing he says is easy or a platitude. His words about love are ones I turn to over and over when I'm troubled or in doubt, because instead of saying it's easy, it's fun, it's light, he portrays it in a way that make me touch a deeper truth about choosing to love and what that costs in idealism and comfort and selfishness, and puts me more in touch with the mystery of my own choice rather than being "shot with Cupid's bow"

So he's my image of an intellectual poet, as his themes resonate to things that are not necessarily comforting or easy, but true to him, and true to me if I examine myself carefully.

The Tao Te Ching is a simple intellectual poem, another one I turn to because the simple reflections of the words make me look deeper to their meanings, which are allegorical and continue on as far as you'd care to look.

So a poem that reflects only surfaces, only wishes, only dreams, only selfishness and single-dimensions, particularly telling you what you want to hear, is the difference between talking to a fake psychic who will tell you what the average person wants to hear in broad strokes, or meeting a truly gifted person who has managed to touch upon a truth, and share it fearlessly.

Do you want to read your horoscope in the newspaper or have a reading with Edgar Cayce?

I admit I enjoy poems that teach a lil something, like DCPoet uses humor and wit that almost always leaves me saying, that was clever. I read that link and have to agree I LIKE both, mixed <grin. I will also admit that other than distastefull poetry I don't realy marvel in poetry that is hard to understand. As with Liars poem today, what I don't understand easily others may and what I get right off the bat in a poem, I see others asking what does the poem mean. Perspectives? It is sort of like the Law, it does not read easily but it covers so much more with the pages of words chosen to stand as a written law. Rather than to say, it is against the law to commit robbery.

I was curious how others felt about this. Like one person had said, "it doesn't take but reading a couple of a poets poems to figure out rather they write intelligent or simple poetry. From reading that link, it seems there are a lot of both.

 

[Recidiva]

I admit I enjoy poems that teach a lil something, like DCPoet uses humor and wit that almost always leaves me saying, that was clever. I read that link and have to agree I LIKE both, mixed <grin. I will also admit that other than distastefull poetry I don't realy marvel in poetry that is hard to understand. As with Liars poem today, what I don't understand easily others may and what I get right off the bat in a poem, I see others asking what does the poem mean. Perspectives? It is sort of like the Law, it does not read easily but it covers so much more with the pages of words chosen to stand as a written law. Rather than to say, it is against the law to commit robbery.

I was curious how others felt about this. Like one person had said, "it doesn't take but reading a couple of a poets poems to figure out rather they write intelligent or simple poetry. From reading that link, it seems there are a lot of both.

Well, some poetry is more like abstract art than any other form of writing. I tend to write maybe 80% for myself and then 20% because I want someone else to enjoy it, so I won't use my own particular shorthand and symbols that mean things only to me. I'll explain a little.

Some people write because they're just abstracting, they enjoy being hidden and secretive. I'm not like that, my writing is done to reveal something, not to conceal.

So I'm pretty critical of the stuff that doesn't make any sense if you basically comprehend the language it's written in, just in the same way that people can look at abstract art and say "Wow, that's so powerful" I'll say "My kid could make something like that in about 10 minutes"

I admire craft and accuracy more than energy and mystery and "raw".

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Well, some poetry is more like abstract art than any other form of writing. I tend to write maybe 80% for myself and then 20% because I want someone else to enjoy it, so I won't use my own particular shorthand and symbols that mean things only to me. I'll explain a little.

Some people write because they're just abstracting, they enjoy being hidden and secretive. I'm not like that, my writing is done to reveal something, not to conceal.

So I'm pretty critical of the stuff that doesn't make any sense if you basically comprehend the language it's written in, just in the same way that people can look at abstract art and say "Wow, that's so powerful" I'll say "My kid could make something like that in about 10 minutes"

I admire craft and accuracy more than energy and mystery and "raw".

I find that feelings and emotions play a major role in rather I'll write a simple/funny poem or get right down to wanting to make a hard statement. Abstracting, I have dabbled with and found that wasn't my thing. Where there is nothing wrong with intelligence there is nothing wrong with being simple. I was in awe that 'simple' was the majority, in surveys, marketing and tools for inspirational and spiritual healing. Where I am sure that in University's that would not be the case <grin

thanks for sharing.

 

[Liar]

I don't really get it. As you may seem to say yourself, simple poems in terms of vocabulary and structure can be very intelligent. In fact the most difficult thing there is in a poem I think is to say something difficult, nuanced and complex, but in a simple and clear way.

The best poems imo, are those that say (a) something interresting in (b) an interresting way, but (c) without becoming too complicated for their own good. Hallmark poetry fails grandly on (a) and most often also on (b), but nails (c) pretty well.

The (b) part, 'in an interresting way' is where many find that their tastes go apart. I like a poem with bit of anarchy, exaggerated style play and disrespect for the conventions of language. Others don't.

To simplify:
* Simple is good. A simple poem is as complex as it needs to be to get the right message through, but not one iota more.

* Simplistic is too simple. Not complex enough to form the right message. If the message is simple, like "I love you" then fine. Those thre words is all it takes. But then we're back at (a)... how interresting is that? (Unless it's directed at you. )

* Then there are the intellectu-esque poems. Threy are too complex, but for no good reason. They try to imitate what they think is intellectual - often by including obscure cultural references, fancy dictionary-hugging words and weird structure in order to impress instead of as a tool to communicate.

The art of making a poem that has an interresting idea, interresting execution of the idea and at the same time purposefull and non-reduntant form is where many fail.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I don't really get it. As you may seem to say yourself, simple poems in terms of vocabulary and structure can be very intelligent. In fact the most difficult thing there is in a poem I think is to say something difficult, nuanced and complex, but in a simple and clear way.

The best poems imo, are those that say (a) something interresting in (b) an interresting way, but (c) without becoming too complicated for their own good. Hallmark poetry fails grandly on (a) and most often also on (b), but nails (c) pretty well.

The (b) part, 'in an interresting way' is where many find that their tastes go apart. I like a poem with bit of anarchy, exaggerated style play and disrespect for the conventions of language. Others don't.

To simplify:
* Simple is good. A simple poem is as complex as it needs to be to get the right message through, but not one iota more.

* Simplistic is too simple. Not complex enough to form the right message. If the message is simple, like "I love you" then fine. Those thre words is all it takes. But then we're back at (a)... how interresting is that? (Unless it's directed at you. )

* Then there are the intellectu-esque poems. Threy are too complex, but for no good reason. They try to imitate what they think is intellectual - often by including obscure cultural references, fancy dictionary-hugging words and weird structure in order to impress instead of as a tool to communicate.

The art of making a poem that has an interresting idea, interresting execution of the idea and at the same time purposefull and non-reduntant form is where many fail.

very well said liar,
thank you

when I reflect to what I refer to as my two favorite poems by lit poets, both are mixed with clever words that are set in a simple write. Then to refer to my altime favorite poem, is short and simple with a deep meaning. So I find a mix of the two create a great poem.

 

[Recidiva]

I also like the mathematical concept of "elegant"

That means using the simplest terms to get across a complex relationship.

The person more able to distill something in that way, is a better poet if they can describe it in one simple elegant stanza than someone who writes 1200 pages and dilutes it into waves of ink.

1 + 1 = 2 is simple to express 2.

1285786/1285786 + 567345/567345 = 1457432/728716 is a complicated way to say the same thing.

I can't help but think that the person writing the latter expression is doing it because they don't know math very well...

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I also like the mathematical concept of "elegant"

That means using the simplest terms to get across a complex relationship.

The person more able to distill something in that way, is a better poet if they can describe it in one simple elegant stanza than someone who writes 1200 pages and dilutes it into waves of ink.

1 + 1 = 2 is simple to express 2.

1285786/1285786 + 567345/567345 = 1457432/728716 is a complicated way to say the same thing.

I can't help but think that the person writing the latter expression is doing it because they don't know math very well...

very good point
that may be why I enjoy Haiku or short to medium poems that fill the soul with the same feelings (if not stronger) than a long poem saying the same thing. <grin

 

[sandspike]

Cool

I must be a Major in the Majority Army. I love a poem that makes me think
not one that sends me to the library. The average Joe doesn't want a poem,
but if he did.....it would be a short poem. It would help if it made him laugh.
The average Joan wants some romance. There would be a poetry market if
Joe really knew more about Joan. Poems made to order and ironed on t-shirts
while you wait. Poets and painters working together for that lasting gift.
There could be money in following the herd.

 

[My Erotic Trail]

I must be a Major in the Majority Army. I love a poem that makes me think
not one that sends me to the library. The average Joe doesn't want a poem,
but if he did.....it would be a short poem. It would help if it made him laugh.
The average Joan wants some romance. There would be a poetry market if
Joe really knew more about Joan. Poems made to order and ironed on t-shirts
while you wait. Poets and painters working together for that lasting gift.
There could be money in following the herd.

well that brings up an excellent example of;
I was given a three book deal, with the understanding they wanted two of my books and I could select the third. I tried to put together a collection of my "Rose" series poems. Ballads of romance and western settings. They were very clear in making me understand that their was not a solid market for this type poetry unless your an 'known' and or 'established' poet. So I did not go that route. Good point Sandspike~

 

[annaswirls]

Billy Collins may be straightfoward but his writing is intelligent. He can take things that everyone has felt but are unable to express. (Einstein's definition of genius is similiar to this)

That is different than simply writing a simple thing in a simple way that anyone would be able to express.

Some poetry that might be deemed cryptic is not intended to be a puzzle to be solved but something to be experienced through the feeling it gives. Not everything is a literal step by step story.

Some people like to be spoon fed poetry, which is fine for them. I like to be spoon fed mathmatics. Other people like the challenge of having to read something more than once to get the underlying feel and meaning.

Writing in a straightforward way can be a simple, easy way to write poetry, or it can be deliberately written, carefully written by a master who knows how to take the difficult and make it appear easy. Many poems I have read at lit, and on greeting cards, are of the former category. They look like there is nothing to it because, fundamentally, there isn't. Certainly, there is a lot of poetry at lit that is of the other type.

Having said that, there is a genre of poetry that can be seen as pretentious in its language and references. I do not particularly care for this brand, but have respect for those who can write it, and for those who enjoy reading and interpreting.

Internet poetry can be like fast food. Get in get read get message move on. People do not take the time to read something twice because there are always a thousand other new poems out there. I am guilty of this ADD approach to reading a poem. Some poetry that might seem to be cryptic upon the first quick read might actually be straightforward if you get a cup of tea and actually read it carefully without thinking of the other 20 new poems you have to read in the next 20 minutes

 

[annaswirls]

poet's razor

beautifully expressed

I also like the mathematical concept of "elegant"

That means using the simplest terms to get across a complex relationship.

The person more able to distill something in that way, is a better poet if they can describe it in one simple elegant stanza than someone who writes 1200 pages and dilutes it into waves of ink.

1 + 1 = 2 is simple to express 2.

1285786/1285786 + 567345/567345 = 1457432/728716 is a complicated way to say the same thing.

I can't help but think that the person writing the latter expression is doing it because they don't know math very well...

 

[Senna Jawa]

when I reflect to what I refer to as my two favorite poems by lit poets, [...] Then to refer to my altime favorite poem, [...]

Why don't you provide links to these poems (or the text itself, if not too long)?

 

[My Erotic Trail]

Why don't you provide links to these poems (or the text itself, if not too long)?

I didn't feel as though that was as important as reflecting on (simple and intelligent.) My opinion may not be anothers and so forth.

However I find favor in Tristesse's "Small white bones" I would make a link but I just discovered that tess has removed a lot of her poetry. Her poem inspired my poem ZMP~ Night Wisdom

Then there is another fav, neonurotic, cages I like a lot of neos work but this one inspired a poem I wrote called; silver slut <grin.

then my favorite since you asked...

To what shall
I liken the world?
Moonlight, reflected
In dewdrops.
Shaken from a crane's bill.

- Dogen, 1200 - 1253


then in fairness, may I ask your favorite poems?
perhaps a thread of favorite poems of lit and not<grin

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

I think it has to do with telling people what they want to hear and what's easy, as opposed to telling harder truths. Hard to hear, hard to comprehend, hard to practice.

Kahlil Gibran is a beautiful poet, and nothing he says is easy or a platitude. His words about love are ones I turn to over and over when I'm troubled or in doubt, because instead of saying it's easy, it's fun, it's light, he portrays it in a way that make me touch a deeper truth about choosing to love and what that costs in idealism and comfort and selfishness, and puts me more in touch with the mystery of my own choice rather than being "shot with Cupid's bow"

So he's my image of an intellectual poet, as his themes resonate to things that are not necessarily comforting or easy, but true to him, and true to me if I examine myself carefully.

The Tao Te Ching is a simple intellectual poem, another one I turn to because the simple reflections of the words make me look deeper to their meanings, which are allegorical and continue on as far as you'd care to look.

So a poem that reflects only surfaces, only wishes, only dreams, only selfishness and single-dimensions, particularly telling you what you want to hear, is the difference between talking to a fake psychic who will tell you what the average person wants to hear in broad strokes, or meeting a truly gifted person who has managed to touch upon a truth, and share it fearlessly.

Do you want to read your horoscope in the newspaper or have a reading with Edgar Cayce?

Did you know platitudes can lay eggs. Well said.

 

[MyNecroticSnail]

I read an article on 'simplistic poems vs intelligent poetry' and was astounded by what I had read.

The main market for poetry rests with Hallmark and the like. More money is involved in simplistic poetry than with intelligent poems. "Inspirational poetry books" being second to GREETING CARDS. They took the avergae reader and introduced them to all types of poetry that fell into two groups, simple and intellectual. The simplistic poems were chosen by more readers by a land slide.

clip~

"There are writers who submit poems that possess a great deal of intelligence or at least have shown that they have an expansive vocabulary and yet I find that alot of their poetry is choppy and more centered around the vocab then it is around the content and flow, and then I've read some simple worded poetry that just rocks, with content, flow etc."... by Bob Shank.

I admit that just because a poem has an extensive vocabulary that does not warrant intelligence, but the point I am looking at is that the majority prefer simple poems rather than battle to figure a poem out. This come to light as I was reading a 'site' on how to read poetry. It stated that you are intitled to your interpretation of a poem if the poem is not clearly stating its topic. (It is rather hard to ask William Shakespeare what he meant with his poetry, so interpretations by several top notch poets now are available, which do you believe to be right?)

What good does it do, to get your own interpretation of anothers write if it is not correct? I know from 'lit poetry' that we all enjoy different types of poems, some enjoy the puzzle poems and some do not. Some like the straight forward, simple writes others do not. Some despise ryhme where others marvel in them. I find nothing wrong with being intelligent but as one statement made relayed; not everyone understands the lit majors poetry even though it is suppose to be a shining example of how poetry is to be written.

Does it actually come down to the pattern that poets with an extensive vocabulary enjoy poetry with a unique vocabulary and those that lack the vocabulary will always favor the poetry that they understand. (plain and simple) and that reflects how our culture as a norm! We are a simplistic species that makes things complicated? (or vice versa)

I had to ask, for I feel this question is going to be different from each individual's likes and dislikes. They refered to the poet; Billy Collins (one of my favoites) as using simplicity in his stanzas to create great poems that reach the readers. I can't argue with that <grin

Don't let Lauren knock U off of your pedastal with her intellingence. U said simplistic, U meant simplistic. U rite from the heart <ba Da dump>. U must have about 400 poems, a hole lot of H's. Even one E. U speak for all the simplistic poes and thinkers here. U should keep up with your preachiments. Soon we will have only 1 interpretation, 1 simple meaning, 1 MIP<winkz>