Sigil Series - First serious attempt at an epic fantasy cycle

[Guest]

Hello everyone, I am new to the literotica site, and would be very much grateul for any feedback, comments, criticisms or suggestions from readers and authors with an interest in Fantasy (whether it be Dungeons and Dragons based, or more traditional literary fantasy) fiction.

This is the chronological/narrative order of stories so far.

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=306840
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=307000
http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=307251
http://www.literotica.com:81/stories/showstory.php?id=307609

NB: That the Preludes Series (1 - 3) are all prequels to Chapter I which has recently been uploaded.

Many thanks in advance for everyone's time.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

First Prelude -

Overall, the story is pretty good. I do question the reason for three preludes. That seems a bit excessive. The worst author that comes to mind for this is Arthur C. Clark who has to construct the entire universe from scratch in nearly every one of his novels. But he does it with something like 8-10,000 words and a single chapter.

This paragraph caught me stumbling -

"Marséna, you are covering me, aren't you?" Virginia shouted as she gave the wooden door a third, hard kick. Splinters flew as the rusted joints gave way.

The wooden door was rusted or the hinges were rusted?

Then in the next paragraph -

"Right behind you, oh ye of little faith," Marséna called out as she parried an incoming thrust with her longsword. Fighting in the cramped stairwell of a slum tenement in the Hive was never pleasant.

This doesn't make sense. If the stairwell is cramped why is she using a longsword? That would restrict Virginia's movements and get her killed.

You seem to have been writing rather quickly. These same stumbles occur over and over.

You have a lot of paragraphs that are impossibly long. Some are 15-20 screen lines. That makes them hard to read on a monitor. Try and limit them to 6-8 lines. That alone will get you a lot more reads.

But these are small things. I admit, I am not into Dungeons and Dragons, so how it plays against the game, I have no idea. But the writing is clear and clean. And I suspect this will be a monumental undertaking to complete the story.

If I were to make any suggestions at all, it would be to let the characters tell more of the story through dialogue. You do become rather verbose in your discriptions of the action - hence the long paragraphs.

But keep it up. I'll get to the next section soon.

Part two is totally unreadable. Your first four paragraphs are over 20 screen lines long. Part three isn't much of an improvement.

I suggest you find another hobbie - like roller skating. Reading this stuff is actually painful.

 

[writelove]

I have only read the first link so that may color my responses.

I thought you had a good command of the language, wrote well. I thought you did well to bring us immediately into the story with some action, the hook to grab my interest.

I thought your paras were too long like the previous responder. Yours were difficult for me to get through. When I did read them, you had some good things to say, but I will confess, it was a bit of a challenge.

The only new thing that I have to add is the distracting way you keep telling me about the environment in the middle of say an action sequence or a conversation. Why do I need to know the following in the third para:

The Civic Security Department, too underfunded to deal with so-called petty crime turned a blind eye to paramilitary organisations which volunteered to share the workload. Thus, the Order of the Radiant Path of the Vigilant Maiden, called, as stipulated in its Founding Axioms, to defend the honour and integrity of victimised, now found themselves in a decidedly tight spot.

I want to know about the fight. This threw me off totally. So in para three, I began to lose faith in you.

Maybe at some point I will need to know about the Civic Security Department and the Order of the Radiant Path, but to do this at such a point in the story when you are desperately trying to hook me is not a good idea.

Another example of this is the following:

The tightness of the stairwell gave both paladins of the Radiant Path the tactical advantage.

You probably should just say - gave both fighters or gave both paladins. But to say gave both paladins of the Radiant Path distracted me.

If you want to introduce the whole concept of Radiant Path have a situation in the story that requires it to be discussed. Little things can be used, a design on a sword indentifying an enemy to show that this enemy is not of the Radiant Path. Have them captured and have to explain that they are true palandins of the Radiant Path, not some low level scum like an Anarchist bastard.

I believe that with some changes, taking away some of the extra explanations, shortening the paras you will have something good.

 

[Guest]

Many thanks for the feedback:

To writelove:
- Absolutely take the point of the paragraphs. In future instalments, I shall seek to make them more digestible This is an important stylistic point and I must say I am quite annoyed that I did not detect it thus far.

- About the explanatory elements: I though to make that the basis of my Preludes and a recurring element throughout the main body chapters. The idea, of course, is that there is a (fantasy) world to understand as a social and cultural construct which has a certain influence on the characters concerned, so a couple of explanations do help. Naturally, I try to keep them as an adjunct to the story rather than as the main focus of the narrative. If this distinction is not clear, then it is as a result of my shortcomings as a writer. So point well taken.

To Jenny Jackson:

- My apologies (genuine and unforced) for the paragraphing problem. Regrettably, and I must emphasise it (though it does not necessarily excuse me), this is the first time I ever produce a serious shot at fiction, so I am not quite certain of the pre-requisites for suitable paragraph subdivision. I just went on the basis of my (mainly academic) writing experience so far. As per writelove, this point is well taken.

- I would, however, ask you kindly to bear with me. I don't necessarily feel that there are paragraphs which are truly epic - I mean as compared to what I have read elsewhere - so if you can find the patience, please give me the benefit of the doubt.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Many thanks for the feedback:


To Jenny Jackson:

- My apologies (genuine and unforced) for the paragraphing problem. Regrettably, and I must emphasise it (though it does not necessarily excuse me), this is the first time I ever produce a serious shot at fiction, so I am not quite certain of the pre-requisites for suitable paragraph subdivision. I just went on the basis of my (mainly academic) writing experience so far. As per writelove, this point is well taken.

- I would, however, ask you kindly to bear with me. I don't necessarily feel that there are paragraphs which are truly epic - I mean as compared to what I have read elsewhere - so if you can find the patience, please give me the benefit of the doubt.

Crimson, elsewhere doesn't matter. Tolstoy has a single sentence in War and Peace that is grammatically correct and two pages long. The problem is, we are trying to read these on a computer monitor. It's been said over and over on here, you get about 10 to 12 screen lines maximum to be able to read it. Because of the type face that Lit uses, 6 to 8 is comfortable.

Short story writing is an art that isn't taught anywhere else. Rule one: Short, concise sentences in short and concise paragraphs.

Admittedly your grammar is far better than I've seen in most stories submitted by new writers. But STOP what you are doing!

Write ONE story. Submit it. Get it reviewed in here. Listen to what we are telling you. The writers who contribute their time in this forum to review all have a lot of stories and a lot of experience. Then you can start writing the next story with a little ammunition and some direction. Four long stories made up of impossibly long paragraphs doesn't work except to fan your ego.

A final word - Lit is not the place for epic novels. That appears to be what you are attempting here. If that is the case, you should write it and submit it to a book publisher. Novels and Novellas are pretty much ignored here.

On the other hand, if you intend to make this a long series, each chapter must be able to stand alone as a story, with all the elements of a good, well written short story.

Thus far you has some 12 Lit Page which is about 95+ MS Word pages and haven't even begun your story yet. Frankly, that's a lot for a new writer to take on. Good luck. I'm done with you.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I am a great fan of J.R.R Tolkien, Terry Brooks, Terry Goodkind, Stephen Donaldson.

I think a lot of novice writers think fantasy, and sci-fi is the easiest category of story to write, basically anything goes. They control the universe in their story.

I have to agree with Jenny's comments. Your story is just plain unreadable with massive paragraphs that need to be broken up, run on sentences that just ramble.

I also question the necessity of 30,000 words of prelude. Your story just isn't that interesting.

What was the secret of Tolkiens "Lord of the Rings" and "The Hobbit". It was the characters, they were interesting.

 

[Darkniciad]

Haven't had a chance to read, but it looks like you have a solid critique anyhow. I certainly would suggest working from some smaller stories before launching into an epic. That's the mistake I made, and I'm going through the process of re-editing 400k+ words in preparation to launch Book II of mine. You'll learn a lot from those small stories, and it will make the big one much easier to deal with.

Take one character, and build their back story. Is there a defining moment in their life that gives them a specific mannerism or way of thinking that's important to the big story you want to write? Tell that tale. Find a good bit of action and adventure to build around it, and write that first. This will also help you give your characters three dimensions by concentrating on one of them, which I see is mentioned as a weakness in what you've posted.

Never break away for long explanations during a fight. The key to a good fight is a sense of urgency. The reader needs to feel some of that adrenaline, and they can't do that if you're delving into the inner workings of a country's politics in the middle of it.

I will disagree with Jenny that long stories are ignored on Lit. I've got twenty people in my mailing list waiting for Book II of Danica to come out, and quite a few more keeping their eyes open through my website or on here. Hardly a huge following, but hardly ignored. I get a comment from someone new finishing Book I at least once a month.

 

[Guest]

Once again, thanks for the feedback.

Darkniciad:
- You raise an important point about the appropriateness of the short story archive for a work of such length - perhaps the Novels/Novellas section would have been more suitable. This is especially the case since I would have wanted to re-edit the entire piece for consistency after it had been finished. All in due time, I suppose and if my work is deemed too unreadable, I should probably try to re-upload it as a more readily digestible and user-friendly whole.

Drksdofthemoon:
- I'm not quite certain how to respond to your comments even though, as ever, I am grateful for serious attempts at feedback. The truth of the matter is, I wrote these stories because I had them in my mind for some time. I merely saw the story develop under my instinct/intuition and that, in the end, was perhaps an error. Naturally, you are correct in pointing out that 30,000 or so words a are a tad many or a prelude and I HAVE indeed sought to change the title to those pieces since Prelude does not really do justice to what ought to have been fully fledged early chapters. So, apologies for the bad labels, but, I'm afraid, no apologies for length.

- As far as the characters are concerned: fair enough. I am not, by any stetch of even the wildest imagination, a great writer. I do, however, know something about characters since I have been playing their roles in tabletop roleplaying games for some time. Ultimately, if you do not find them interesting, that is a perfectly reasonable point to make; but the comparison with Mr. Tolkien strikes me as a little unfair: obviously his characters are going to be more engaging than mine because, obviously enough, Tolkien was a far more brilliant (scholar and writer) individual than I can aspire to be. Without being facetious, if I had Tolkien's capabilities I would be teaching at Oxford and publishing my fiction, not wiling my time away doing a useless degree.

 

[Darkniciad]

I'm finishing an edit right now, but I'll read through some of your story here in a bit. I'm an old PnP role-player/DM too, and Danica is my way of living in that world again, while dragging other people into it with me.

I'll see if I can't give you some ideas about how to make your characters stand out in the printed word. I'm translating the tabletop experience into a story too, so I may have the perspective you need to get what's in your head to come out on paper.

Sci-Fi/Fantasy and Novels/Novellas really have equal numbers of long story readers, from what I've seen. Since you're working from a Sci-Fi/Fantasy theme, I'd just post the story there. The readership should be about equal, and I'd be willing to bet that the readers there are a bit more forgiving of first-timer mistakes than Novels/Novellas.

My suggestion would be to work on a couple of short stories based upon characters in your big story and get some feedback on your writing. Be prepared for some hard edged criticism, and let the legitimate points come through. Once you have some experience in and you've built up a few readers, have the current parts of the big story removed from the site, rewrite them with what you've learned, and then repost them. ( The FAQ tells you how to remove a story, but the short version is to start a new submission with the same title as the original + *DELETE* and the "story text" mentioning you want to remove the story )

Removing them and then reposting them will have them appear in the new list when they post. If you just edit the parts already up on the site, the edits will re-post without appearing in the new list. People are more likely to start reading from a 1 than a 3

I read Weis, Hickman, Eddings, Salvatore, and Feist as my core diet of mainstream fantasy. I've never even picked up Tolkien. Most people consider that blasphemy *laugh*

Once again, thanks for the feedback.

Darkniciad:
- You raise an important point about the appropriateness of the short story archive for a work of such length - perhaps the Novels/Novellas section would have been more suitable. This is especially the case since I would have wanted to re-edit the entire piece for consistency after it had been finished. All in due time, I suppose and if my work is deemed too unreadable, I should probably try to re-upload it as a more readily digestible and user-friendly whole.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

- As far as the characters are concerned: fair enough. I am not, by any stetch of even the wildest imagination, a great writer. I do, however, know something about characters since I have been playing their roles in tabletop roleplaying games for some time. Ultimately, if you do not find them interesting, that is a perfectly reasonable point to make; but the comparison with Mr. Tolkien strikes me as a little unfair: obviously his characters are going to be more engaging than mine because, obviously enough, Tolkien was a far more brilliant (scholar and writer) individual than I can aspire to be. Without being facetious, if I had Tolkien's capabilities I would be teaching at Oxford and publishing my fiction, not wiling my time away doing a useless degree.

Yes, you know something about the characters. I don't. This a problem similar to some writers of Fan Fic. They have the character in their mind, but don't get it across to the reader.

No, I wasn't trying to compare you with Tolkien, I was trying to show you where I think his work was sucessful and where yours is lacking. God knows we aren't all Tolkien.

Where Tolkein showed us Middle Earth, bits at a time through his characters, you are trying to create your whole world right away. Instead of giving us a ponderous overview of your world, you would have been better served showing us the world through the eyes of your characters as they moved through it.

Okay, here's a bit of what is wrong....a lot of your paragraphs are much too long, and need to be broken up. You wrote this as one paragraph, this is how I would have broken it up. A lot of your sentences run far to low. They need to be rewritten and broken down. The first and second 'new' paragraphs are good, the third and forth consist of one sentence each that could be broken down. It's hard for readers to continually have to read very long sentences. A sentence should convey one thought, one idea, one action.

Where dialog is concerned, the paragraph should end as it does in the first paragraph, after what ever description, or emotion you are trying to convey with the dialog.

"Looks like you don't need the help," Virginia said grimly as she set herself at her companion's side, her sword wailing as it cut into an Anarchist's shoulder.

The tightness of the stairwell gave both paladins of the Radiant Path the tactical advantage. Pressed shoulder to shoulder against each other, assuming a defensive posture that reduced the target for their enemies, they relied on the disorganised indignation of the Anarchists.

Their indignation was great enough to throw caution to the wind, striking out at the armoured women with practised but ineffectual lunges that were soon blunted by patient, calm swordplay, and opening themselves for that final, cutting riposte that sent them reeling and then tumbling down the stairs.

By the time Marséna had felled her second, the remainder of the Anarchist cell had decided that prolonged resistance would result in - at best - a Pyrrhic victory and withdrew, boots sliding frantically, into the lower reaches of the building before disappearing, in all haste, into the Hive Ward. Untraceable, to be sure, but they would certainly lie low for a while.

Here's another example. A new paragraph should start after Virginia's reply. Start a new paragraph after introducing Marséna. The next paragraph describes what she looks like physically. You switch to Virginia, a new paragraph should start there, and again when you change from her history to her physical appearance.


"I'm flattered," Virginia replied, with irony but no malice.

Marséna had matured into one of the most impressively effective - and elegant - fencers she had known. Her days as an insecure novice were quite evidently behind her.

She now carried herself with enviable poise: her body was lean, athletic, with olive skin, lustrous, long corvine-black hair, and immersive, expressive brown eyes which some poets would have said betrayed the secrets of the depths of her soul. Her features were delicate; lips full and wine red, breasts and hips in the parsimonious generosity of a Classical sculpture - a visage which, in other worlds, would have been called a paean to the Mediterranean.

Virginia knew they made a strikingly complementary team. While Marséna had been born in the province of Overnha on the sun-kissed world of Mareterra, Virginia's ancestors hailed from the cool, misty lands of Ortho.

Her complexion, pale as pearl, was testament to this. Her body was leaner still than Marséna's, more masculine, perhaps, but no less elegant. Fervid, green eyes were framed by perfectly blonde hair which had been succinctly arranged, in the manner of a page boy. Though Virginia's features were sharper, there was a richness to them in the symmetrical beauty of her face, still blessed with the freshness of very late adolescence which bridges into womanhood, and the inviting firmness of her body.

 

[Guest]

In response to sustained and justified criticism, I have sent out re-edited and better paragraphed versions of my stories. They should be uploaded shortly.