Sight-Seeing, Nov. 25, 2001

[Mickie]

The story up for discussion for this short week is Daughter's nomination, Sight-Seeing. It can be found in the Exhibitionist and Voyeur category.

The Link -- http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=27557

Thanks, Daughter, for agreeing to do this short week. Hopefully, it will still have enough time to attract some discussion!

(We'll resume the regular Friday submissions this Friday.)

Mickie

 

[daughter]

What I'd like to know

Thanks, Mickie.

Appreciate the space to discuss the story. Like to thank the readers who have responded thus far.

There are some specific things I'd like to discuss:

1) POV- This is from the voyeur's perspective. I'd like to know if this works for the reader.

2) I purposely do not name the central figure. I'd like to know how this affected the read.

3) There is no dialogue as well. My intention was to see this from the narrator's view. How does this impress the reader?

4) I use italics to show the narrator inserting herself in the scene. Is this effective? Does it accentuate the experience? Does it layer the voyeuritistic experience in the story?

I'd be interested in hearing additional feedback as well. I already intend to revise the intro. I believe it can be tighter and a smoother transition from the setup to the main sequence can be improved. I'd prefer not to discuss this since I am aware of the short-coming with the opening.

Thanks.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

Only one thing was teeth-gritting. The simple sentences. They made it a very short and choppy read. That and the passive voice. If it's a linking verb, you can get rid of the conjugation of the word "be" at any time. You said you're re-doing the first paragraph, my suggestion to you would be to make the first sentence active voice. Passive voice doesn't hook readers. The simple sentences didn't come across as breathless or exciting, they came across as uncertain and vaguely juvenile. See Dick Run. We ate dinner. That kinda thing.

I think the lack of dialogue was ineffective. There were few spots where there was dialogue, it was just melted into the prose itself. I'm not sure how others feel about it, but when you melt the dialogue away it feels passive. You're telling the reader, not showing him, as Mickie is very good at saying. I have that written on an index card hooked to my monitor. I don't think, personally, that a few bits of dialogue at the top would affect the story one way or the other beyond making it feel more experienced and less told. The bottom part, the important part where the action actually goes on, no one says anything or if they did, she didn't hear it or notice it. So turning whatever her husband says to her into a melted statement wouldn't take away from the charged, intense feeling during the voyeuristic part.

The POV was fine, it was first person, and very effective. It's very exciting and arousing to be a voyeur and in this story there was a double voyeur effect, we watched the sex and we watched her enjoying it as well. The naming of the central character, the narrator, was completely unimportant. I frequently don't name my characters. People don't think that way and it flowed very naturally despite the endless sea of simple sentences. It's a detail people like, I imagine, because names are important to the identity of a character in some ways, but in others they confuse things. I have one story where the main character is never identified by name, just rank,and the other main character is only known by her last name. Interestingly enough, no one whose read it ever noticed they weren't fully named for 75,000 words. I wouldn't have noticed that she wasn't named if you hadn't pointed it out.

As far as the italics goes, well, that actually confused me. I read it first, then read the comments, then re-read it. When I read italics I think one of two things, it's a thought by whatever character or it's an emphasis. It never occurred to me that the central character was separate from the whole thing because I thought she was intrinsic. They were as aware of her as she was of them and I think they were aroused by her arousal as she was aroused by theirs.

Pacing, setting, length, grammar, and spelling were good to me. Other than the lack of conjunctive transitioning, I had no problem with the mechanics and I don't think anyone else should either.

 

[daughter]

short sentences

KM--

Thanks for the detailed critique. You know, Hemingway was known for his short, choppy sentences. I was trying to create an effect, but not the one it impressed on you. I'll re-consider those lines. Apparently the contrast between them and the rest of the text doesn't work for some readers.

((sigh)) I wasn't crazy about Heminway either. Thanks.

Peace,

daughter

 

[KillerMuffin]

When I was in fourth grade I read a Hemingway book. I remember distinctly throwing it out the window and grousing, "I can write better than that." Since it was math time, the teacher wasn't impressed. I was told to write a 20 page essay on why one doesn't discuss Hemingway during long division. They figured I'd have it done in a few weeks. I had it done in about three days complete with the reasons why I write better than Hemingway. I've always been an arrogant little shit.

The reason I was so nit-pickish, I think I was at least, is because I know you can do better than that.

 

[daughter]

Ain't mad atcha

Gurl--

Pick, chile. Ain't mad atcha for it. LMAO

You know I didn't care for Hemingway either. Some would argue that's sacriledge. LOL

I'll clean up the text, KM. Won't change everything to your liking, but I won't argue with your observations. I appreciated them.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Jake Marlow]

Not a bad story. I found the choppy sentenances distracting too, but the author did a nice job of setting mood. I could really feel myself there. I have to admit, I read the critiques before the story, but I think I would have caught onto the italics thing and I think it was an effective tool. I would have liked to say seen the story get a little more physical, but that's just a personal taste thing. And the tone of the story was a little formal. The turn-on factor wasn't really high for me, but the story was well done.

One other thing. The woman in the story was only 5" tall! Wow, that's tiny.

Jake

 

[Guest]

I am not a contributing writer to this site, although I do have my moments when I write for myself. I'm hoping it is okay with you if I add my feelings about this story. Thank you.

The story daughter wrote captured my imagination as I've always had a very strong feeling of wanting to view something of this nature and have desired to be seen by others.

What I agree with is that the sentences were a bit choppy, but that did not distract me from the essence of her words. What it made me think about, after the fact, was that here was an author so engrossed in her own words that she was breathless trying to get the next sentence written before it escaped her. I think we've all done that because we want to get our ideas across to the readers just as much as we want to continue on with writing our story. Those abilities will come as the writer progresses with her talent and realizes that she has enough time to finish her thoughts.

There was a part in daughter's story that completely caught me - it is quoted below:

Idele kneeled before him, slowly unbuttoned him and then buried herself in a mass of dark hair and sweat. I know it was sweat because I could taste the salt of him on my lips. The heat was cursing over my body in waves. Jacques grabbed her head and began to pound into her. I was afraid she would choke. I couldn't breathe.

Those words completely captured my imagination. I was that wife watching and feeling what was happening through that mirrored wall. I could taste him as he pushed his way past Idele's lips and into her mouth. That description was so sensual.

What I also felt very strongly about was the fact that she allowed the wife to be so engrossed in what she was watching that she reacted like she was Idele. She became Idele just as a person allows themselves the luxury of being caught up in a moment. daughter even had the wife becoming so aroused that she took her own husband into her mouth.....don't you wonder if those in the other room were now allowed to watch the husband and wife show their erotic arousal at the sight of watching them? That's just my take on that part of the story.

This story holds the promise of many more to be written by daughter. It's because of her story that I am living out my fantasies - my desires to be a part of something like this.

daughter, your story was wonderful. Thank you.

Enchanted

 

[REDWAVE]

Endless mirrors

I too really liked this story. Let me talk first about what's wrong with it. There's one place where it says Jacques "gnarled" on Idele, where the context clearly calls for the word "gnawed." (I can see why your spell-checker didn't pick this up, daughter-- "gnarled" is a word, just not the right word for the context.) There's also a couple other little grammatical errors.

Other than that, it's hard to find bad things to say about this story. I like the point of view, especially the places where the narrator identifies with Idele-- and yes, I think the use of italics to convey that is effective. I like the fact that the narrator is left nameless, but she ascribes names to the people she's watching, even though she obviously doesn't know who they are. I also liked the hint of danger, with him cutting her clothes away with a knife. I really liked the little touch of bisexuality, when Jacques suddenly buggers the young boy Antoine instead of Adele. Also, the description of the setting at the beginning, with the ottomans and all, is lush and rich.

The ending is excellent-- we all know what happens next, so there's no need to describe it. It's more arousing-- and definitely more aesthetic-- to let the reader imagine it. And the image the ending brings to my mind is this-- the heroine and her husband have just watched the other three make love, and now are inspired to do the same. Who knows? Maybe, unbeknownst to them, someone else will be watching them, and become aroused, and . . . so on ad infinitum. Endless mirrors.

Excellent story, daughter. Need I say I gave it a 5?

 

[mudlnthru]

Story

I enjoyed the story, the slightly different setting and the fact that watching with a partner is a real turnon, especially if the end result is a good one.

Two comments regarding the story itself... The woman, a better description is needed. More about her, what she looked like, more detail. I didn't get enough detail and was confused by the description that was given. In the same paragraph, she's described as pretty and then plain. She was also handsome and strong but with smooth skin. I was left completely unable to picture her. The same with the men. Not much in the features category.

Second, the names. If they were just made up, it would have been nicer if the husband had identified them. After all, he seemed to be in on the surprise. It would have added some realism if he just did that or the names were never given. They weren't really necessary to the story. In fact, they lend a feeling of knowledge and intimacy to the characters that would not be present if the lady and her husband were just voyeurs.

Otherwise, like I say, the story was good. Makes me want to go search for a curtain to open.

 

[daughter]

Clarification

Mud--

Thank you.

The wife names the lovers because it matters to her. Does that make sense? She wanted to increase the level of intimacy not the husband.

I purposely focused on the players and not the couple. I'll go back and see how I can better differentiate between the wife and Idele.

Perhaps, I should better describe 'plain and pretty'. Makes sense to me. I will work on making it clearer to the reader.

I appreciate your feedback. Glad you enjoyed it.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Hi, daughter! Sorry I haven't gotten to this until now, but it's been a very strange and headache inspiring week. But better late than never...

So, the choppy short sentences got to me, too. But I do like long, lingering sentences when reading about sex.

The imagery within the setting and the actual storyline was good, and I did like it. But...

Of course there's something I can pick on. There always is. I felt as if you were holding back, keeping from describing some of this because it would have gotten too wordy. Maybe that's the function of the short sentences, as well, but it could have been more drawn out, more dramatic. The effect you were going for was minimized because it wasn't explored to its fullest extent. The mirroring. I liked that. And I don't think you need to differentiate between the two women. One is the other in a mirror. If the character is confused, the reader can be, too. If the wife feels like she's Idele, is identifying herself with her, then why does there need to be more clarification? I'd recommend even more identification. But that's just my own liking for odd sensual awarenesses. I like confusion, but unconfuse me at the end and give her back her own body.

This is probably a little disjointed. I'm half asleep and trying to hold together until I can finally close my eyes. Ugh. Never have a teen aged kid. Give em away when they reach the age of ten. Boarding school or something.

I did like it, though, daughter. A cut above some here, and a cut below others. You can make it stronger, though. You've got the right idea.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

Teenagers

Mickie--

Feeling you on the woes of having teens. Want to pool our funds and see if we can get a group rate on shipping them off? LOL

No arguement, this can be knocked up a notch. When you wake up, please provide some suggestions on how to increase identification.

The short sentences will be at the top of the list. Maybe I was stingy with the length of the story. Not sure if that is influenced by my own short attention span or simply because this draft is only in the low double-digits. It usually takes me a least a half dozen more to get something that's closer to the mark.

I appreciate all the feedback.

Peace,

daughter

 

[Mickie]

Due to the detail of my reply to daughter, I've emailed it to her. She can share as much or as little of it as she wants here.

Mickie

 

[christo]

Using short sentences for effect, to make each line have more punch, more impact, can really be an effective tool. When the narrator is describing the woman, and we get each detail in tiny bits, the short sentences are choppy, a distraction. When she is describing the bigger man seizing the woman and having his way with her, the short sentences heighten the tension, make you read the following sentences faster and faster. That part worked very well.

I think the story would be better if it was longer, if we had a bit MORE of everything. More setting of the mood, more backgound, more denoument. Oddly, though, I wanted less physical descripton of the three participants, I thought that slowed the story down. The woman's ring is described as a double-braided ring, silver, and ugly. It seems a bit odd that sitting so far away the narrator could see such detail about a ring, and even if she could, if the ring was ugly, why describe it? The reader doesn't need that close a description.

But the story itself was enormously erotic, very arousing. I wanted more of the three lovers coupling (tripling?), that part was a surprise and outstanding.

A very good story, just wanted more of it. And an author is on the right track when readers say, "More, please!" It's when they start saying, "You need to cut Chapters 4-9. And the epilogue. And the narrator, just cut him" that you should start gnashing the teeth.

 

[daughter]

Thanks

Using short sentences for effect, to make each line have more punch, more impact, can really be an effective tool. When the narrator is describing the woman, and we get each detail in tiny bits, the short sentences are choppy, a distraction. When she is describing the bigger man seizing the woman and having his way with her, the short sentences heighten the tension, make you read the following sentences faster and faster. That part worked very well.

Christo, thanks. You're the only reader to comment on why I was trying to do. The majority thinks I should scrap the idea. I'm glad to know someone caught it though.

Mickie sent me a great indepth critique. In short, the consensus is this story needs to be lengthen, tighten, and a rewrite on the opening. Saving all your comments.

Thanks to everyone for taking so much time to comment. The investment you made on my behalf is appreciated big time.

Peace,

daughter

 

[karmadog]

My apologies for getting to this story so late, but I just discovered this section of the board.

First, I don't understand the reference to "sugar babies" skin. What does that mean?
I really liked when you compared Jacque slicing the buttons off of Idele's dress to picking lint. Perfect analogy. That makes me think that if I knew what "sugar babies" means, I might like the analogy there, too.

On to some of your questions.
I would have been interested to know what was going on between the narrator and Malcomb during the show. You deftly created an interesting dynamic between them in the first paragraph. They have been married for five years, but she has never seen his New Orleans property. They will eventually retire there, but it seems there has been little or no discussion of this. She seems passive, even submissive. Why? Of course, this is a mark of a good story. I'm interested after the first line.

I did not like the italics. I thought they were unnecessary and distracting. I thought it was clear that she was blurring the line between herself and Idele.

I would correct the grammar and spellng errors, as they were jarring to me. They made the story stop. Maybe I have a copy editors mentality, I don't know.

The central figure didn't need a name. I never found myself wondering what her name was. I think that is a sure sign that you made the right choice.

Dialogue also was unnecessary. I was not interested in what Idele, the boy, and Antoine were saying. No, that's not right. It's better not to know. The one exception to this is the aforementioned curiosity about what was happening between Malcomb (who virtually disappears), and the narrator.

With regards to the short choppy sentences, some work and some don't. It felt to me like it was a too conscious decision to use them. Try reading your story aloud. I think that you would change some of those lines. While prose is not poetry, one necessity of all writing is that it flow naturally. Reading aloud is the best way to find the flow.

The setting was perfect. It is completely believable that this story would take place in NOLA. For those who haven't been there, it might have heightened the decadence to describe the feel of the city. The smells of fresh beignets and spicy boiled crawfish mixed with the smell of the river and urine. Sometimes, when it's really hot, the city just oozes smells.

Anyhow, I liked the idea of the story (although I was repulsed by the buggering of the boy), but I would like to see a rewrite. Wow, that sounded harsh. It doesn't need that much to be changed, just grammar/spelling, and an improved flow.