::sighs::

[Angel]

I am watching "Anatomy of a Crime" on MTV
It's about the whole Matthew Shepard thing. Not only am I depressing myself but it is opening up old wounds. When this whole thing happened, the site http://www.godhatesfags.com set up a *tribute* page to Matthew, showing a picture of him burning in hell and describing how they PICKETED his funeral. I was pissed as hell over it, but hell what can I say? They had the right to stick their opinions out on the internet too, despite the blatant disrespect I feel they showed toward Matthew's family. Anyway, actually sitting here and watching the entire story reproduced and unfolding in front of me. No matter how many times I see this, I still cannot believe that it happened.

People complained that the only reason the whole thing got so much exposure was because he was gay. Well it got that much exposure because he was killed FOR being gay. There is a difference


Ok I am done venting bye.

 

[Nobody Special's wife]

It is a sad day that all american that have a realiogn would be so judgemental ,I have family memebers that are gay, I feel no hate or fear from them, But I can say that I'm very proud!

THE WIFE

 

[Todd]

I would just like to say that, that site does not represent true biblical christianity, nor does it represent true mainline christianity.

It saddens me that you would judge me based on the flawed concepts of religion presented by groups such as these, or the KKK or other such fanatical groups and organizations that claim to do these sort of harmful activities.

Te bible teaches "love one anothers", "live peacefully" i do not believe that these groups activities or teaches should be called "christian in any way shape or form.

If one is to read the bible whether as a religious tyest or merely a fairy book, it can be seen that God loves the sinner but he hates the sin. These groups do not seem to want to recognize this fact.

Sorry for preaching, I will step down from the pulpit now.

 

[Angel]

I don't think anyone is judging YOU or all Christians, Todd.

It's just that people who act like this and do it *in the name of Christianity and God* make alot of people sick. I think it is sad that hateful people are too weak to stand up for their hateful beliefs on their own and have to resort to using God as a crutch to spew their hate.

 

[jcgirl]

that had to be the single most disturbing thing I have ever seen

 

[Angel]

The website? Yes. Yes it was. I felt literally ILL the first time I saw it.

 

[jcgirl]

Me too. I couldnt get past the first page

 

[Angel]

I sowwy

 

[Todd]

I apologize. I stated my statement incorrectly. May I try again?

My background:

I grew up 18 years in a militant athiest family, so don't confuse that with lifetime of christianity. I was one of the biggest thrahsers on christianity in my area. I'll stop there before I get to boring.

Mindsets:

Mainline society has been feed an image labeled 'christianity' through most of the media. The image is that of the KKK {white supremest in the name of 'christianity'}, Godhatesfags {bigotry in the name of 'christianity'}, Crusades {war and hatred of other opinions in the name of 'christianity'}. So we begin with bad images of what christianity is. And, as a Christian I can not deny that any of this exist because they are all around us.

People Presented:

Again, media does a good job at presenting the worst of everything and never showing the good side of it
especially when it comes to religion. What figures immediately jump out when people say christianity. Jim Swagart, Oral Roberts {men who fell under the power of money and fell publically}, Jim Baker {Fell to the flesh}. So when men of christianity what names popup. Men who have succumbed to the power and the fame. When is the last time Billy Graham was used as an example of Christianity? The eleventeenth of never?

The Results:

A society that is breed to believe the worst that can possibly be is rooted in christianity.

The Truth About the Matter:

Christians are just normal flesh and blood humans beings. filled with love, hate, anger, happiness, bitterness, and the whole gambit of emotions that every other person of the face of the planet are filled with. Are Christians any better than everyone else? Nope. Are Christians any worse than everyone else? Nope. Flesh, blood and bone.

As Angel so beautifully said Men and Women of have used a christianity as a crutch or a gathering point to gather likeminded {sometime weak minded} individuals to further thier own cause.

In essense The bad is what is aired for all to see. When is the last time a christian organization such as Ohmaha Open Door Mission who provides jobs, clothes, food and homes for nearly 10,000 homeless and destitute yearly? Or feeding the homeless every day in the slums of New York by Child Evangelism Fellowship?

It's true though if the media could of found anyway that Ted Kazinsky {unibomber}, the Oklahoma bombers had ever attended a church anywheres, that entire denomination would have been put under investigation as the cause of such incidents. It is the way the media and society has trained us. I know I come from a family that raised me to think that way. Guilty through asociation is the backbone of the views on Christianity.

If we were to meet on the street, never having known each other before. You would think I was normal as any other person that you had meet, until, I said I was christian. Then automatically without any effort your behalf you, media has instilled in your mind to put a barrier and begin to think, "is this one of those fanatics?", "what does he have planned?", or "what is his motive?" along with other mutally similar thoughts.

Sorry for preaching again, I'll step away from the pulpit now.

 

[Angel]

You know, with me personally being a non-Christian, you are most likely right. (Not to say that this was directed at me, but I'm just addressing it cuz it's 12:11 AM, I'm sick and I have insomnia.

Mainly because every single time I am conversating with someone new IRL, if they are Christian, then always seem to fish around to find out MY religion. Once they discover I am not, I usually spend about 20 minutes listening to a *Why you should be saved NOW* speech. It is rather tiring.

Still I don't lump Christians together. Honestly most of my friends ARE Christian. I just choose to avoid the ones that tend to hand me piles of Chick Tracts and invite me into their flock on a daily basis.


Then again, I'm not a very patient person.

 

[Mustang Sally]

Ok, Todd, this is obviously a very sensitive topic for you. But I've read this argument from you several times and I'm still not buying it. You are stereotyping non-Christian attitudes just as surely as you claim non-Christians stereotype you. Frankly, you sound paranoid.

Don't you realize the "society" you live in is, in fact, Christian dominated? "Society" does not condemn the belief in God. It has become very secular, that much is true. Organized religion has seen a downfall. But no matter how hard I look, I cannot see the enormous, oppressive, anti-Christian movement you seem to believe in.

I am not a religious person, as you may know. I will admit I am wary of anyone who knocks on my door, pamphlets in hand, spouting any kind of unsolicited religious rant (Christian or not). But unless you're trying to force your beliefs down my throat, I am not going to make any judgements about you when you say you're a Christian. At most, I'd think "Oh, that's nice."

And you want to blame the media for society's supposed anti-Christian attitude. Using the example at hand, should the media not have mentioned the picketers at Matthew Shepard's funeral because it might taint how we think of Christians? These people behaved in a horrifying, disgusting manner, and they claimed to do it in the name of God. People realize this is not representative of Christian views or Christian behaviour, but rather a group of bigoted, homophobic assholes who use God to justify their fear and hate.

 

[~melia~]

First of all, I cant believe that a "church" website (see top of that webpage)would call homosexuals "fags". Fag is a derrogatory word, and to use such words in my church (also baptist) is not acceptable.

Second, at the bottom of the website is a link called Fag Facts. It describes things that homosexuals do such as anal sex, rimming, oral sex, using toys, and fisting. Hellooo??? Heterosexual people do that too. Some people are so stupid it amazes me.

Ok, I vented too.

 

[Merelan]

It is incredible what people, throughout time, have done, in the name of the Lord.
Todd, keep those beliefs firm and tight. Dear and precious.

My brother had to move away from me because of our wonderful society. Yes, he is gay, openly. Why hide it? I don't hide I am hetero? But here, then, it was not safe. Yes, he was fired, yes he was beaten up once. Another time his car stolen. And in church, a Baptist one, he was denounced, called a fag and removed from membership.
Sad world sometimes. But this has made him aa stronger person. He has used what happened as a strength to help others.

 

[Guest]

Merelan, I found your comment about hiding your sexuality interesting. Seeing people who are 'proud' of their sexuality and who constantly force that fact in my face annoys me. If you want to be proud of something, be proud of who you are, don't let your sexuality define you so you can be proud of it. While not feeling the need to hide your sexuality is a good thing, you don't have to make sure everyone knows about it by 'coming out'. I don't see people who are heterosexual constantly telling people that they're straight, so why does anyone who is gay or bi need to?

 

[Merelan]

Exactly my point. Maybe I wasn't very clear, no caffeine yet. Here goes a better response.
My brother doesn't go around flaunting it, but he doesn't hide it either. He did, but then opened up and shared with us, though we already knew. If you ask him, he will tell you. Same with me and my husbands. We don't throw it in peoples faces, but don't deny it either. I agree that sex doesn't define us, though some people would like to think so.

I feel sorriest for Matthew's family and friends. But I also feel sorry for the killers families too. How they must feel, their pain and shame over what happened.
Nevermind, not sure that was any clearer. And I am not going to the website, sorry. Shuddering. Saw too much on the news.

 

[Guest]

Heh, don't worry Merelan. Looking back I think you were clear enough, it was just me who took a different tangent. But I got my rant out anyway...

I'm so sorry your brother had to relocate because of the discrimination but I hope wherever he is that he is happy, and that you and the rest of your family are too. You sound like great people.

Right now, while I can't help but feel anger at the people who commited the murder of Matthew Shepard and the group who picketed his funeral, I also can't help but feel pity for them. People aren't born prejudiced and full of hate, they get that from other people. So I seem to find when you get down to it, you can't really blame anyone. All you can do is try to make sure it never happens again by ridding people of prejudice, I guess. I doubt I'll ever see the day that happens before I die, though...

 

[Todd]

Ok, Todd, this is obviously a very sensitive topic for you. But I've read this argument from you several times and I'm still not buying it. You are stereotyping non-Christian attitudes just as surely as you claim non-Christians stereotype you. Frankly, you sound paranoid.

Don't you realize the "society" you live in is, in fact, Christian dominated? "Society" does not condemn the belief in God. It has become very secular, that much is true. Organized religion has seen a downfall. But no matter how hard I look, I cannot see the enormous, oppressive, anti-Christian movement you seem to believe in.

May I give you a project if the above is true? Find the lowest minimum wages jobs even and post as your education:High School and Bible college. I was part of the those against christianity for 18 years. Yes its true those who are not christians do not get some sort of flyers that says "Beware christians are out there we must denounce them" or anything like that.

I am not a religious person, as you may know. I will admit I am wary of anyone who knocks on my door, pamphlets in hand, spouting any kind of unsolicited religious rant (Christian or not). But unless you're trying to force your beliefs down my throat, I am not going to make any judgements about you when you say you're a Christian. At most, I'd think "Oh, that's nice."

And you want to blame the media for society's supposed anti-Christian attitude. Using the example at hand, should the media not have mentioned the picketers at Matthew Shepard's funeral because it might taint how we think of Christians? These people behaved in a horrifying, disgusting manner, and they claimed to do it in the name of God. People realize this is not representative of Christian views or Christian behaviour, but rather a group of bigoted, homophobic assholes who use God to justify their fear and hate.

Again I do not know what news network you were watching but you must have had the rare good one becasue ATV evening news, Global News, CNN, Fox Rochester, CBC Newsworld, all presented this activity as typical of all christians, and they really nailed on the fact of it being an all christian attitude. I can't recall which station but one had an onair interview with the leader of the above group and really pushed the fact that he was not a fringe group but acting on behalf of the whole of christendom.

I am sorry I say this but as an athiest I saw the media manipulation of our thoughts and as a christian I have not seen a change from that format. Yes I agree with you nowhere in society or media has it been outright plain english "Mock, main and make fun of christians they are all fanatical stupid uneducated brainwashed bozos". But listen closely to the words that are used and how subtly that a fringe group is connected to the larger whole

Yes, it is a sore spot with me because sadly I openly participated in the beliefs the media express as acceptable toward christians

 

[Angel]

Todd, if I may ask where do you live?

 

[Juliangel]

Todd, if I may ask where do you live?

Todd is in New Brunswick Canada.

 

[Todd]

Thank you Juliangel

 

[Todd]

Todd, if I may ask where do you live?

May I also inquire into you curiousity about my location?

 

[Mustang Sally]

Todd

You're obviously looking for this supposed attitude, and I have no doubt you find an example or two easily enough. But you're taking those examples and projecting that attitude and belief onto everyone who is not Christian.

Allow me to repeat myself, because you obviously missed this part. You are stereotyping non-Christian attitudes just as surely as you claim non-Christians stereotype you.

Originally posted by Todd:
May I give you a project if the above is true? Find the lowest minimum wages jobs even and post as your education: High School and Bible college.

You're blaming your difficulty in finding a job on anti-Christian attitudes? Ummm, ok. I'm sure you're right. There couldn't possibly be any other reason they wouldn't hire you. The lowest minimum-wage jobs can be reluctant to hire any kind of college graduate. Let me ask you this: did you gain any practical skills or learn anything that prepares you for a specific job?

Reading the rest of your response, I feel SO frustrated. It's like you didn't really read a word I wrote.

Originally posted by Todd:
I am sorry I say this but as an athiest I saw the media manipulation of our thoughts and as a christian I have not seen a change from that format... But listen closely to the words that are used and how subtly that a fringe group is connected to the larger whole.

You seem to be saying I'm ignorant or blind to the manipulations of the media. I took print-journalism in college. I also studied the theory of media in university. I'm very aware of the way the media can manipulate a story. They do have a great deal of power and influence over public perceptions.

Let's assume for the sake of argument that what you're saying about the media's representation of Christianity is true. If I were locked in a room with only a television set and no other access to the outside world, my concept of society would be wildly off-base. For example, I might believe all teenagers are lazy-ass punks and trouble-makers. But since I'm lucky enough to be a part of that society, to interact with people, etc., I know that's not true. Give people a little credit. There are enough Christians out there that we interact with them every day. We don't have to be spoon-fed our opinions about them by the news.

And again, I repeat: Should the media not have mentioned the picketers at Matthew Shepard's funeral because it might taint how we think of Christians? I don't think so.

 

[Angel]

Was wondering at the *Fox Rochester* comment.

 

[Todd]

Was wondering at the *Fox Rochester* comment.

Oh, ok, its part of the local cable service up here 24 channels american and 3 canadian

 

[romanticgal]

Maybe a different way to look at this?

I was raised in a traditional christian family on the outside at least because that was the way things were done. My family's heritage is largely Native American though so a lot of those beliefs and values were instilled also. I haven't seen the website or movie you are talking about but they sound really sad. My mom doesn't consider herself gay but she just doesn't choose who to love based on their outward appearance but rather the person they are. Even so I have faced some negative reactions that I don't understand.


There was a story on about gays and adoption. My hubbie and I had a long debate afterwards. I don't understand why Christians (generalized) refuse to even consider that homosexuality may be part of an ultimate plan. I mean at the time the bible was written it was acceptable for men to have more than one wife because there was a need for population. People died early, infant mortality was high, hands were needed just to keep things going. But now most countries face a problem with over population. Isn't it possible that homosexuality is a way to kinda even things out. Maybe this was part of the plan all along.
And even if people can't get their minds around that one surely they should be able to see this as a test. Everyone knows the story about Jesus coming to earth as a homeless man or something like that and the one person who sees him as human and offers him love and understanding receives salvation.

So I quess I'm agreeing with most of you. The people who subscribe to the kind of thought that it sounds like is promoted on that website must not realize what kind of affect it has on all of us as a people. But I guess they could turn that argument around as well. Hmmm.