Should liability be limited?

[Weird Harold]

First, I'm surprised this incident, where a river tugboat and barge knocked out a section of an I-40 bridge near Oklahoma City and killed fourteen people, hasn't been brought up for discussion.

Perhaps this aspect of the case will generate some interest:

from KFOR.com
Updated: June 4, 2002 at 10:17 AM

OKLAHOMA CITY -- A Mississippi company has asked a federal judge to limit its liability in a barge accident that killed 14 people in eastern Oklahoma.

If approved, a petition filed Monday by Magnolia Marine Transport Co. would prevent the injured and the families of the 14 people killed in the May 26 bridge collapse to receive more than a combined total of about $1.2 million for their losses.

The petition, based on a maritime law, also would apply in case the state and federal governments seek monetary damages for the bridge.

“We filed a petition for exoneration and/or limitation of liability this morning, pursuant to federal statutes,” Joel Henderson, Magnolia Marine's attorney, said Monday.

If Magnolia is not vindicated in the accident, the company wants its liability limited to the value of the towboat and freight, Henderson said. The towboat was worth $1.2 million on the day of the accident and the freight charge was $23,200, according to a marine surveyor's estimate included in the petition filed in Jackson, Miss.

...

The rest of the article: http://www.kfor.com/Global/story.asp?S=806876

Among other tidbits in the rest of the article is a comment that the Tug involved has a history of steering difficulties, the tug captain "blacked out" after only getting ten hours sleep in the last two days, and the tug had an "inadequate deadman switch."

From just the information in this article, it certinly sounds like company that knows it fucked up trying to evade responsibility for negligence.

 

[SINthysist]

Why should they be held to a higher standard than the airlines in wake of 9-11?

It would seem that the look to government first mentality has become the de facto standard in all things.

As for not being discussed. It seems with the beginning of summer, World Cup, vacation, a longing for relief from death. I dunno. I'm the dim bulb of the pack...

 

[SINthysist]

PS - seems your posting is up the last few days. Hope it indicates all is well.

 

[bluespoke]

I was discussing this omission with a friend the other day and she thought it may have been the holiday weekend that put people off.

If the company fucked up then they should pay and not just a paltry sum like $1.2million.

 

[SINthysist]

I dunno. Worked on barges one summer. Damn hard work, old equipment. I don't see families getting a lot by forcing one company into bancruptcy, especially one so hard pressed as to keep a captain on with such little relief.

But what about insurance? Were they insured? Won't that cover some of the compensation?

 

[Samuari]

There are a couple of interesting things about the legal wrangleing in this. One is that by allowing Magnola to file in Jackson, all litigation will be done in Mississippi rather than Oklahoma. (We have an Attorney General that seems to be more interested in running for Governor than in doing his job.)

The other is that the liability limit law is very old (19th century, I think), and was concieved to incourage investment in ships and shipbuilding. If the Company itself is found negligent, by not correecting something that it kew about or should have known about, than the limit will not apply. One of the lawyers around here can prolly do a better job than I can explaining it.

This link can give you more info, and has further links to more coverage, including some multimedia stuff:
http://newsok.com/cgi-bin/show_article?ID=870505&pic=none&TP=getbridge

 

[brokenbrainwave]

so let me get this straight, a tragic accident happens in where some older gentleman (assuming all reports are true) has a medical crisis, and a bridge collapsed, killing 14 people. This entitles people to profit endangering said company putting more than 14 families in financial harms way. THIS is the very reason we need to look at reforming litigation laws. Was Magnolia negligent, whom knows at this point. Ok, I will agree if it comes to pass they are at fault or the captain was a known drunk they should be help liable, but if they are sued (which is going to happen) if this was merely a tragic accident it will be plain and simpley money grubbing. Do I feel for the victims, of course. However I detest the fact in this country the word Sue has become a verb instead of a noun. Say my wife and kids had been on that bridge that fateful morning and plunged to their deaths, the first fucking attorney that approached me looking for a fat paycheck would leave waiting to pass his teeth through his colon the following morning.

Companies are way to quick to settle, as are municipalities. I say appeal the hell out of an unjust verdict, keep it tied up in court, and outlive the damn plantiff. LOL, can anyone sense this kind of stuff grates my nerves excuse me, I am going to McDonalds and pour hot coffee on my cock as I leave the parking lot, my house needs a new roof.....grrrrrr

 

[Weird Harold]

I dunno. Worked on barges one summer. Damn hard work, old equipment. I don't see families getting a lot by forcing one company into bancruptcy, especially one so hard pressed as to keep a captain on with such little relief.

Perhaps such a company should be forced into bankruptcy?

I have little sympathy for a company that puts profits before the safety of it's workers and the public. FWIW, Old equipment does not necessarily have to equate to bad equipment or unsafe equipment.

 

[Rubyfruit]

Harold, I agree with you. Of course, I'm completely against tort reform.

The legal system as it stands now (and moreso before tort reform), protects consumers and workers. Without companies being held liable, and punishing them fiscally for wrong doings, they will not put safety first.

 

[sigh]

so let me get this straight, a tragic accident happens in where some older gentleman (assuming all reports are true) has a medical crisis, and a bridge collapsed, killing 14 people. This entitles people to profit endangering said company putting more than 14 families in financial harms way. THIS is the very reason we need to look at reforming litigation laws. Was Magnolia negligent, whom knows at this point. Ok, I will agree if it comes to pass they are at fault or the captain was a known drunk they should be help liable, but if they are sued (which is going to happen) if this was merely a tragic accident it will be plain and simpley money grubbing. Do I feel for the victims, of course. However I detest the fact in this country the word Sue has become a verb instead of a noun. Say my wife and kids had been on that bridge that fateful morning and plunged to their deaths, the first fucking attorney that approached me looking for a fat paycheck would leave waiting to pass his teeth through his colon the following morning.

Companies are way to quick to settle, as are municipalities. I say appeal the hell out of an unjust verdict, keep it tied up in court, and outlive the damn plantiff. LOL, can anyone sense this kind of stuff grates my nerves excuse me, I am going to McDonalds and pour hot coffee on my cock as I leave the parking lot, my house needs a new roof.....grrrrrr

Turn it around. What if it were YOU and not your family on that bridge? Assume too that yours is the primary income you family depends upon. What if the main (or only) breadwinner was suddenly gone from your children's lives?

This is a hard question. Certainly some monetary awards are outrageous (your MacDonald's reference is the classic case in point) but 1.2 million total liability in this case seems paltry. SIN's right. What about insurance? We need more facts.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

I dunno. Worked on barges one summer. Damn hard work, old equipment. I don't see families getting a lot by forcing one company into bancruptcy, especially one so hard pressed as to keep a captain on with such little relief.

But what about insurance? Were they insured? Won't that cover some of the compensation?

From what was reported the company sounds extremely neglegent. Why shouldn't we force it into bankrupcy? Maybe other companies would think twice before sent sailors out in poorly equiped boats with captains that can't stay awake.

-CE

 

[CoolidgEffect]

...

Companies are way to quick to settle, as are municipalities. I say appeal the hell out of an unjust verdict, keep it tied up in court, and outlive the damn plantiff. LOL, can anyone sense this kind of stuff grates my nerves excuse me, I am going to McDonalds and pour hot coffee on my cock as I leave the parking lot, my house needs a new roof.....grrrrrr

Much of these fines are ment to be punitive. Sure the stupid lady that spilled coffe on herself got way more than she deserved, but McDonalds make more in one day on coffee sales alone than the cost of the ruling against them. Do you think they felt punished?

I don't believe the families deserve to get rich from a tragic accident, but the fines levied against companies have to be great enough to change their irresponsible behavior.

 

[Rubyfruit]

Ok, let me just speak to the McDonald's case for a minute. So many people hold this case up as an example of the American judicial system gone amok.

First of all, the elderly woman had to have skin graphs. The coffee actually burned her skin off. Would your coffee at home do that? Probably not. Not even coffee in most restaraunts is that hot.

McDonald's knew that their coffee was hot enough to cause harm, but they could save money by using a lower quality product, and made that choice. When it's that hot baby, you can't taste it.

The woman didn't make the wisest choice by putting it between her legs, and she was held comparatively negligent.

Punitive damage judgments are to punish the company, literally, once they have been held liable. Liability awards are about actual damages.

So, to punish a company like McDonald's, do you think $200,000 would even make them blink? No way. The punitive damage award is based on the company's profits.

Anyway, the judgment got drastically reduced. I bet the plaintiff barely had enough to cover medical bills, lawyers fees and case costs.

 

[CoolidgEffect]

Ok, let me just speak to the McDonald's case for a minute. So many people hold this case up as an example of the American judicial system gone amok.

First of all, the elderly woman had to have skin graphs. The coffee actually burned her skin off. Would your coffee at home do that? Probably not. Not even coffee in most restaraunts is that hot.

McDonald's knew that their coffee was hot enough to cause harm, but they could save money by using a lower quality product, and made that choice. When it's that hot baby, you can't taste it.

The woman didn't make the wisest choice by putting it between her legs, and she was held comparatively negligent.

Punitive damage judgments are to punish the company, literally, once they have been held liable. Liability awards are about actual damages.

So, to punish a company like McDonald's, do you think $200,000 would even make them blink? No way. The punitive damage award is based on the company's profits.

Anyway, the judgment got drastically reduced. I bet the plaintiff barely had enough to cover medical bills, lawyers fees and case costs.

Yeah, what I said. But much more eloquently. Thanks.

 

[looking4fun]

I am not a big fan of the law-suit happy world we live in. But trying to limit total losses to $1.2million seems a little low. If all the money was split equally among the familes of the 14 killed. Which is only $85K for those that haven't done the math.

That "may" be less than the yearly income of some of the victims.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

Turn it around. What if it were YOU and not your family on that bridge? Assume too that yours is the primary income you family depends upon. What if the main (or only) breadwinner was suddenly gone from your children's lives?

This is a hard question. Certainly some monetary awards are outrageous (your MacDonald's reference is the classic case in point) but 1.2 million total liability in this case seems paltry. SIN's right. What about insurance? We need more facts.

I do agree that we need more facts, but I was assuming for debates sake...and whom is to say all reports are not correct. I was speaking in the case that it is just a tragic accident.

As to turning it around, it is every families responsibility to ensure they are taken care of in the event of such a tragedy. Life insurance is not that expensive and here's to cut off the argument "what if they cannot afford it". If the family breadwinner makes say 20 k per yr, then he/she needs 100K or five times their salary according to the life ins. industry. 100k policy for a smoker even is not very expensive. My issue is it seems everyone is looking to make a easy buck.

Classic case (edited for brevity): A man steals a truck, the police find him, he tries to run them over and they kill him in self defense....his hillbilly ass mom sues and guess what, the police department settles for nearly 135,000, is there something wrong with this picture and could this have possibly happend?

 

[SINthysist]

The bancruptcy's a good point. Maybe they should be out of business. I just don't recall any real spiffy outfits in that business, if you know what I mean.

Okay, you sue the company out of business. The family gets an award from the court, but collects mere pennies on the dollar. Now I don't want the government to step in, unless it's on the end that inspects these companies and regulates safety on our waterways, highways, and byways...

And again. Were they insured? That's who should pay off. Then by raising premiums, maybe the company will go out of business. Maybe the owners of the business would be criminally liable and personally held responsible for some of the financial burden and the company would go on "under new management."

Again. I dunno. I'm not a lawyer. Who knows. It may be the Army Corps of Engineers who gets sued in the long-run because they have deep pockets.

Just trying to think it through. Not provide answers.