short poems -- discussion

[Senna Jawa]

This thread is for discussing the poems listed in the

        short poems (link list)

thread. Eve seems to like open discussions so I will take a risk and start with some of her poems (until she stops me and requests that I remove my posts ).

A Bitter Winter

The poem has an image and is sensual. Good. It starts with a metaphoric image to describe the subject's inner state. That's the second best choice. If the image described the subject directly, physically and sensually, and conveyed the inner state of the subject this way, it would be a superior solution. It is much harder. This relates to the "selection versus creating" distinction.

Line "to melt me" should be removed. It tells the reader what E can figure out for Eirself. It does explaining. In poems explain nothing, it's not a poetic thing to do. Also, this line is subjective, it can be false. Poems should be objective. Subjective things should happen in readers' mind.

Also the last line is no good. In view of what was already said in the poem this line does not do anything for a reader. It is just a dot over i. Eve, keep your reader on Eir toes all the time.

Despite all my criticism it is a nice poem. It is not yet artistically at a mature stage.

Remark. Suggestions of modifications should not be followed one at the time, independently one from another. One has to keep the whole poem in view.

Always Awake

This poem... Hm, I better stop now and see if Eve wants me to continue let me only mention that the title reminds me of my [always...].

Best regards,

 

[WickedEve]

I didn't know we would be discussing the poems on the short list. I just listed short poems. If I knew there would be discussions, I would have left a few off the list. lol
You can talk about any of them that you want to talk about.

 

[Senna Jawa]

I didn't know we would be discussing the poems on the short list. I just listed short poems. If I knew there would be discussions, I would have left a few off the list. lol
You can talk about any of them that you want to talk about.

Well, I don't know. I didn't mention for example that the whole business of ice and heat and melting in the erotic context is quite trite. But that's beside the point. Perhaps I should remove this whole thread

Indeed, I didn't mean an automatic permission. I apologize for taking a shortcut. (I did offer to remove my posting but still I acted too fast).

I'd like to encourage everybody to read Keiko Imaoka. In ten to twenty five syllables of beautiful, smooth English she was able to create images and stories and profound poetry. Your outlook on poetry will change when U r able to appreciate what she has done in her tanka & haiku. (Several other haiku poets are great too, e.g. Paul Mena, who is very-very good, but Keiko was still something else). It is not easy to get into poetry (may be it is, may it is a question of attitude in the first place) but it is so worthwhile.

Best regards,

 

[WickedEve]

Well, I don't know. I didn't mention for example that the whole business of ice and heat and melting in the erotic context is quite trite. But that's beside the point. Perhaps I should remove this whole thread

Indeed, I didn't mean an automatic permission. I apologize for taking a shortcut. (I did offer to remove my posting but still I acted too fast).

"Well, I don't know." Don't know what?

"I didn't mention for example that the whole business of ice and heat and melting in the erotic context is quite trite." Well, okay. lol

"Perhaps I should remove this whole thread" Why? I said I didn't mind you discussing my poems. If I did, I'd tell you.

"Indeed, I didn't mean an automatic permission. I apologize for taking a shortcut. (I did offer to remove my posting but still I acted too fast)." Uh... did I say the wrong thing? I said, "You can talk about any of them that you want to talk about." And it means what it means. I don't mind you discussing my poems!

I'm now going to bump my head against the screen a few times. Ahh... that's better. lol

 

[Senna Jawa]

I said, "You can talk about any of them that you want to talk about." And it means what it means. I don't mind you discussing my poems!

Indeed. It was all me feeling uneasy. U didn't contribute to it. On the contrary, U were more than once encouraging.

I'm now going to bump my head against the screen a few times. Ahh... that's better. lol

What kind of screen do U have? Did U pay extra?

Best regards,

 

[Guest]

Perosnally, I'm looking forward to hearing what you have to say about "Always Awake". I liked that one a lot.

 

[Guest]

Sorry, that was me, k-dog.

 

[Senna Jawa]

"always awake" by WickedEve

There is something nice about always awake. It makes a reader to focus on things which r otherwise taken for granted.

(BTW, "always awake" is a bit long for a short poem, but not too much, it is still short enough for the purpose of this thread. With tighter language it can become quite a bit shorter).

"We" in line 3rd makes me uneasy. Who r "we"? Everybody? This makes the next line sound extra trite (of course the phrase about sleep wasting 1/3 of our life is trite anyway). Later it becomes clear that "we" r "I & U". If this was clear right away, the poem would keep reader's interest better all the time. As it is, the 2nd stanza sounds like a lecture.

The theme of the poem seems to be a curiosity. A person, even two, stopped sleeping. There r people who do not sleep. I have a friend who sleeps about one hour a week (I could call him any time, 24h a day ). It's not clear what is the significance of this.

Is this sleeplessness symbolic or real? The second stanza seems to indicate that it is real. If not then this poem would be a bit like a trick. (The goal of metaphors, and of poetry in general. is not to set up clever puzzles for readers).

The author tries to make the issue important by using certain expressions like "final night". The importance should be in the thing itself, it cannot be created by "important words". To conclude, the poem hangs in the air for me. This problem can be fixed, I think, by changing the emphasis from sleeplessness to what was lost as a result of sleeplessness. The sleeplessness itself can be treated like it were normal, obvious, without dwelling on it.

There is too much "grammar" in the poem (placebo kills poetry). Words should not serve grammar but poetry. It is nice when language of a poem feels natural but it should be above the usual standards. Especially expressions like "...do such things" should be rather avoided. This particular expression suggests that "we" (whoever "we" r) have stopped doing some other things besides sleep. There is no follow up, no connection with anything else in the poem, no other things. And even if readers try to help the author, if readers agree about the other things, they r not important to readers. The poem didn't make them important. It is a distraction.

At the end there is a mysterious reference to "what you did to me". It is 100% private, it does not involve readers. And again this is not poetry's language (several words and nothing concrete, no image).

I'd say that Eve had the instinct, went after something poetic, got on a good orbit, but didn't collect enough of thoughts, material... and posted her poem before it has reached a high point on its orbit. It may be the issue of setting standards higher. It helps when these standards r named. Most of us, poets, need them to be spelled out in order to be conscienscious of them, in order to satisfy them. (Bukowski didn't spell them for himself and occasionally was ending up with lemons).

Remark It's possible that I misunderstood Eve's poem. This would not affect most of my comments (about placebo, etc). If I did misunderstand "always awake" then the q. is whose fault was it, my or Eve's? I wouldn't know.

Best regards,

 

[WickedEve]

Re: "always awake" by WickedEve

Okay, how about this:

Closing my eyes on our final night,
little did I realize it was my last sleep,
my last dream.
I miss waking in the middle of the night
to sheets that cling to sweat,
all because of what you did to me
while I slept.

I rushed that first version out. I'm so bad about that! Anyway, I hope this one makes more sense.
In the first line I use "our final night." I hope that says "last night together for a couple." That gives "I" a reason not to sleep.

"At the end there is a mysterious reference to "what you did to me" I thought this was clear. "waking in the middle of the night to sheets that cling to sweat, all because of what you did to me while I slept." If I miss the dreaming, and I'm waking up to sweaty sheets, then I'm having erotic dreams about my lover. Is this clear? Yes? No? Doesn't work?

I'm glad to get feedback on these poems, SJ. Thanks

 

[WickedEve]

A Bitter Winter

I bury myself in ice
whenever you're near.

You stroke heated fingers
across cold shoulders
to melt me,
but I remain frozen.

I read this just now -- first time in a while. I cringed! I like the first stanza, but the rest should be blown into itty bitty pieces.

 

[smithpeter]

how and why I read a poem

First I try to gather meaning from it. This often takes me the most time.
If the poet is one of my favorites I may take more time. Sometimes I spend too much time trying to get meaning from things that were never meant to have any.

My take on Always Awake:
These are the words of a dead woman/wife.
She was killed by her despised husband probably because of something like getting roses from a secret admirer or because she dumped him at a bus station. Again.

Out of respect for the beautiful, sexy deceased I chose not to analyze the poem any further.
Peace and cornbread

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: "always awake" by WickedEve

Okay, how about this:

    Closing my eyes on our final night,
    little did I realize it was my last sleep,
    my last dream.
    I miss waking in the middle of the night
    to sheets that cling to sweat,
    all because of what you did to me
    while I slept.

I rushed that first version out. I'm so bad about that! Anyway, I hope this one makes more sense. In the first line I use "our final night." I hope that says "last night together for a couple." That gives "I" a reason not to sleep.

Wow! Eve, now your poem is much better, it is in another league. And, not surprisingly, it is shorter now. Now it is short

U got rid of that talk-talk from the 2nd stanza. That already helped.

Line 3 is a problem (U'r not moving forward). The long expression in line 4 is a cliche "in the middle of the night". Let's fix both problems:

    Closing my eyes on our final night,
    little did I realize it was my last sleep.
    I miss waking in the middle of my dream
    to sheets that cling to sweat,
    all because of what you did to me
    while I slept.

It is still 100% your poem, I just did an editorial minor thing. (But the artistic impact is essential). Now your poem is still shorter (We will reach perfectness when it will vanish. No, no, no, no!!! I am silly ).

"At the end there is a mysterious reference to 'what you did to me' " I thought this was clear. "waking in the middle of the night to sheets that cling to sweat, all because of what you did to me while I slept." If I miss the dreaming, and I'm waking up to sweaty sheets, then I'm having erotic dreams about my lover. Is this clear? Yes? No? Doesn't work?

The subject was asleep. The partner did something. It sound like he made love to her, while she was asleep. For some unknown reasons she resented it so bad, that they part and she cannot sleep anymore. Of course, what I have written does not fit your poem perfectly but to me it fits it better than other explanations. In general, I don't even need to understand a poem 100%, but what I do understand should feel right. Here it's still unclear (and for no good reason). Further down this thread Smithpeter sees vampires in your poem

I'm glad to get feedback on these poems, SJ. Thanks

I am glad. U create nice atmosphere.

I am writing an essay (trying to force myself, I have a block) about Keiko Imaoka's poetry. I am thinking about posting in this thread a portion of it, concerned just with one of her tanka. It would show that short poems in the hands of a master r not "little poems" but great poetry, as serious as the long poems. To accept and appreciate this, one needs to feel poetry deeply.

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: "always awake" by WickedEve

Okay, how about this:

            Closing my eyes on our final night,
            little did I realize it was my last sleep.
            I miss waking in the middle of my dream
            to sheets that cling to sweat,
            all because of what you did to me
            while I slept.

(I've incorporated an earlier editorial change). It's time to face the last two lines. Eve, U need to put there some real stuff. These last two lines do no poetry, only explaning (they r placebo). Change the concept of your poem in your mind. It is different anyway The poetic point of the poem is that the subject of the poem realizes that she misses some things which people take for granted. Other moments r not so freshly new: the parting drama in itself is common. What counts r the details which go with such common events.

How about:


            Closing my eyes on our final night,
            little did I realize it was my last sleep.

            I don't miss sleep.
            I miss waking in the middle of my dream
            to sheets that cling to sweat.


Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

1+1 > 2?

Eve, after the last modification, your poem and mine can form one joint poem, with my part being an intro, and yours the final point:


        always sleepy
        ...

               *     *     *

        closing my eyes on our final night
        ...


wickedeve ©
wlodzimerz holsztynski ©

They fit together very well!

(And we would still keep our separate poems as well)

As a side funny aspect of it, we may both post our poem on literotica and see who will get higher rating, and who will get more views .

Best regards,

 

[Rybka]

2 + 2 = 5

. . . For exceptionally large values of 2.

Regards, Rybka

 

[WickedEve]

Senna

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'll probably edit my poem tonight and submit a new version.

 

[Sweetwood]

Enlightenment

Would someone please shed some light on what qualifies for a "short" poem.

I would appreciate clarification.

Sweetwood

 

[Senna Jawa]

"Crazy Criminal Love" by WickedEve

I liked this one!

&nbsp Crazy Criminal Love

A nice, easy going poem, great! I don't mean GREAT in a heavy way, it does not seem to touch on any big-big problems of this world. But there is room in poetry for light poems too, and this one is such, and ... great   Thank U, Eve.

Regards,

 

[WickedEve]

Re: "Crazy Criminal Love" by WickedEve

I liked this one!

&nbsp Crazy Criminal Love

A nice, easy going poem, great! I don't mean GREAT in a heavy way, it does not seem to touch on any big-big problems of this world. But there is room in poetry for light poems too, and this one is such, and ... great   Thank U, Eve.

Regards,

You'll probably find a lot of my poetry doesn't "touch on any big-big problems of this world." Though, many of them touch on my big problems, but most are hidden behind humor.

Thank you for the comments on this poem, S. J. I'm finding your feedback to be most valuable and interesting.

 

[WickedEve]

Re: how and why I read a poem

My take on Always Awake:
These are the words of a dead woman/wife.
She was killed by her despised husband probably because of something like getting roses from a secret admirer or because she dumped him at a bus station. Again.

That's exactly what it's about! How did you figure that out? lol

Out of respect for the beautiful, sexy deceased I chose not to analyze the poem any further.
Peace and cornbread

How about: piece and cornbread with butter? You know, I actually have a cornbread poem, sp! I think I should mosey on over to that sex thread and post it.

 

[smithpeter]

hmmmm,
I can smell it,
Please serve it hot so the butter
melts on contact!

 

[WickedEve]

hmmmm,
I can smell it,
Please serve it hot so the butter
melts on contact!

I melt on contact.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Enlightenment

Would someone please shed some light on what qualifies for a "short" poem.

I would appreciate clarification.

Sweetwood

Would U narrow down your q. to what U really want to know, or say more about your q.?

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: how and why I read a poem

My take on Always Awake:
These are the words of a dead woman/wife.

Smithpeter, when U'r dead, U'r asleep forever. U don't have to consider the waste of 1/3 of your life on sleep. There is nothing in the poem which indicates that the narrator is dead. Sure, U can claim what U state. But then I can make up a hundred other, equally probable stories. A poem should be the true source of an interpretation, not just barely a pretext.

She was killed by her despised husband probably because of something like getting roses from a secret admirer or because she dumped him at a bus station. Again.

Well, Smithpeter, U'v got your imagination, but it does not connect with the poem. This way one would obliterate poetry. Any poem would mean anything, everything and nothing.

Out of respect for the beautiful, sexy deceased I chose not to analyze the poem any further.

Wow! U'r such a gentleman. Even when it comes to the products of your own mind alone.

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

Re: Re: how and why I read a poem

Originally posted by WickedEve That's exactly what it's about! How did you figure that out? lol

WE & SP, scientists should study this example of incredible, ubelievable, exceptional, outstanding ESP.

(BTW, how does the agreement between the two of you affect the view of the poem artistically; I am talking of course about the original WE's version)?

Best regards,