Sheesh, someone else finally sees it my way

[bholderman]

Greetings,

I normally hate and avoid the political-religios thread hereabouts, but this news column, caught me off guard:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060213/cm_usatoday/whathashappenedtoamericasjesus;_ylt=Amzr.o9smfz205s2RuxOaTIDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

 

[Guest]

Thanks, it caught me off guard too. Can't even explain why I opened the link 'cept I had the time. Also nice to see the article came from a midwest paper .

Coming from a Mexican-Catholic family (vs. gringo-catholic) my experience and thinking is the same as the writer's.

best, Perdita

 

[rgraham666]

Snicker.

I find it easier to put Jesus in the same category as Socrates. A man who tried his best to be wise and good, and pushed others to be the same way.

And knew he'd never quite succeed.

If we showed the same lack of certainty, maybe we'd be closer wise and good as well.

 

[ElizabethWest]

It would make America look ridiculous.

I don't think America needs any help.

 

[SeaCat]

Ohhh too funny, and unfortunately too true.

Cat

 

[English Lady]

I love the bit about Jesus not getting mad for us questioning things. Very nice.

 

[amicus]

Greetings,

I normally hate and avoid the political-religios thread hereabouts, but this news column, caught me off guard:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/usatoday/20060213/cm_usatoday/whathashappenedtoamericasjesus;_ylt=Amzr.o9smfz205s2RuxOaTIDW7oF;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW04NW9mBHNlYwMlJVRPUCUl

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

That is a pecular piece and an example of the left suddenly embracing Jesus just before the 2006 elections...I find it humorous...

Just so this thread won't be the usual left wing daisy chain, I thought I might offer a diffent POV.

I felt so sad reading of the Pavlovian Italians (who never watched Fellini) crossing themselves to ward off vampires and other bloodsuckers.

Since the Popes lost power in the Rennaissance and the printing press was available to all, religion has become less a factor in all things.

The death knell should have been rung with the knowledge of how the Catholics treated the Jews in World War Two, but alas, it was not.

The second death knell has rung with the Priests scandal, worldwide, but unfortunately is just another chapter in the decline of the silly faith in a supreme deity.

Aside from what you think, read and hear, religion is a dying thing in America, given lip service only in most cases, and held dear only by ignorant blacks and hispanics and, I add, hysterical women and old people.

But what is truly amazing and worthy of a guffaw now and again, is the liberal left, secular humanists, embracing the 'old' Jesus, as a symbol of post modern liberalism.

That is really hillaryious....


(ahem)


(sorry for the pun, the devil made me do it...)

amicus...

 

[English Lady]

Bless your heart, Amicus.

EL -proud to be counted with the ignorant blacks and hispanics and hysterical women and old people.

 

[amicus]

English Lady]Bless your heart, Amicus.

EL -proud to be counted with the ignorant blacks and hispanics and hysterical women and old people.

[/I]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

EL...this is not to pick on you, personally, but I am a non believer and I do not apologize for it.

I also acknowledge the right of anyone to believe that which they wish to believe, as silly as it may seem to me.

And I do treasure the 'kiss' (couldn't find the icon) from an English Lady, I have had a few in my time, well, more than a few, but not in this venue.

But I truly view 'religion' as a relic from the past, that has long outlived whatever usefullness it may once have had.

I do not desire to see, ever again, those of you with religious moral imperatives, in a position to dictate to others how you think we should live and act.

I am not pleased that you have the right to torture your children with visions of crucifixions and demons and devils and hellfire and brimstone. Not you specifically, but all those who pass on their faith to innocent children.

I am not pleased with the basic religious philosophy of sacrificing self to become part of a greater whole, (GOD) that does not exist.

I think religion is the most dangerous and destructive force ever unleashed upon this planet and I would do anything I could to hurry its demise.

amicus...

 

[English Lady]

Dear Amicus, I cant say I'm awfully fond of your creed, but you're welcome to it.

I won't call it silly, or dangerous, out-dated or sigh about how I wish you couldn't pass it on to your children (your as in your fellow believers, not you, of course!) or I wish it could be a view not used by those in power.

I will not tell you that the core of your beliefs does not exsist, but it is merely a relic, that is no longer useful in society.

I simply offer you another and,although you will not thank me for it, I will keep you in my prayers.

 

[amicus]

English Lady..."I simply offer you another and,although you will not thank me for it, I will keep you in my prayers...."
~~~~~~~~~~

And although you will not understand, I offer a sincere thank you, for myself and for those brave explorers who crossed oceans and mountains and space with knowledge of navigation, knowledge of all things real, but still, at times, wondered and doubted and perhaps, had 'faith' in things.

I never have.

Had 'faith' that is, always depended upon myself and others who dared challenge the unknown.

We need you, I suppose, to bury us, and remember us, as the 'foolish ones' who challenged the faith.

amicus...

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

What I think that EL is saying, amicus, as are others, is that no one religious sect has a monopoly on the image of Jesus of Nazareth. Liberal Christians, of which my brother is one, are simply more inclined to move past the official version of what Jesus of Nazareth was like and consider a different view of him. For instance, there were multiple churches, prior to Constantine. The Gnostics were one such movement, as were the Ebionites (Jewish Christians). Prior to having imperial "unity" imposed on it, a large part of Christianity WAS radical, revolutionary, and iconoclastic. I'm not sure that EL belongs to that ancient form of Christianity, or is simply a modern liberal Christian, but she is an example of a growing movement of Christians who refuse to let Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell speak for them and define their faith.

In any case, I share your disgust with the old, fundamentalist version (although your earlier posts make these atheistic remarks rather surprising indeed). As I belong to a religion MUCH older than Christianity OR atheism, I have a certain degree of detachment and distance from this old debate. I do not advocate "traditional" religion. In fact, I snicker anytime I hear someone refer to Christianity as "the old-time religion", since mine is at least 4 or 5 times as old. I am sure that some Jews have a similar reaction to the notion of the "Judeo-Christian" ethic, when Christianity is a heretical offshoot of their faith VERY much different from it.

Even so, I make a distinction between the "hellfire and brimstone", "born-again" crowd and the more open-minded sects that people like EL embrace. I respect anyone, Christian, atheist (or Pagan, like myself), who respects the right to dissent. That is all that I have to say on this matter.

 

[bholderman]

I think what I really got out of the story and what fits with me, is that its just a part of life, nothing to be paraded around as an object of superiority or as a device in defending an issue, etc.

If I didnt get something out of it, would be the Italian/European acceptance of other religions, which obviously motivates the use of religion in most of our society. We don't hear it until it becomes painfully obvious as in France a month or so ago.

And it also causes me to ask questions as a whole society (in the United States), does the bickering (right word?) undermine us or strengthen us? The cliche of, "Live and Let Live," comes to mind, but that doesn't mean the person next to you thinks the same way.

But I am starting to ramble, and as I mentioend in regards to politico-religious threads, I avoid which also means I am not very good at them.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

About the Jesus-was-kidnapped thing, I think I can track down when it happened and by whom. It was Robert Bly, in the 80'ies. He and his peers argued that "Jesus was no sissy!" and publically denounced the traditional view of Jesus as a patient, loving, and forgiving man; instead they made him out to be a soldier, a macho man, with a short temper and a strong punch.

Kinda like if the KKK had suddenly claimed left and right that Martin Luther King was actually a racist.

 

[English Lady]

Severus

I think what I really got out of the story and what fits with me, is that its just a part of life, nothing to be paraded around as an object of superiority or as a device in defending an issue, etc.

I really liked that too- and I am really not good at debating. It gives me a headache after a while!

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Severus



I really liked that too- and I am really not good at debating. It gives me a headache after a while!

Back at ya, EL.

 

[English Lady]

Back at ya, EL.

*swoons*


(and stops hijacking the thread -sorry bholderman!)

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

*swoons*


(and stops hijacking the thread -sorry bholderman!)

Damn, I don't think I've ever made a girl swoon before. That's a nice first.

 

[English Lady]

Damn, I don't think I've ever made a girl swoon before. That's a nice first.

(honest, no more hijacking!)

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Neat AV too.

 

[amicus]

SEVERUSMAX]What I think that EL is saying, amicus, as are others, is that no one religious sect has a monopoly on the image of Jesus of Nazareth. Liberal Christians, of which my brother is one, are simply more inclined to move past the official version of what Jesus of Nazareth was like and consider a different view of him. For instance, there were multiple churches, prior to Constantine. The Gnostics were one such movement, as were the Ebionites (Jewish Christians). Prior to having imperial "unity" imposed on it, a large part of Christianity WAS radical, revolutionary, and iconoclastic. I'm not sure that EL belongs to that ancient form of Christianity, or is simply a modern liberal Christian, but she is an example of a growing movement of Christians who refuse to let Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell speak for them and define their faith.

In any case, I share your disgust with the old, fundamentalist version (although your earlier posts make these atheistic remarks rather surprising indeed). As I belong to a religion MUCH older than Christianity OR atheism, I have a certain degree of detachment and distance from this old debate. I do not advocate "traditional" religion. In fact, I snicker anytime I hear someone refer to Christianity as "the old-time religion", since mine is at least 4 or 5 times as old. I am sure that some Jews have a similar reaction to the notion of the "Judeo-Christian" ethic, when Christianity is a heretical offshoot of their faith VERY much different from it.

Even so, I make a distinction between the "hellfire and brimstone", "born-again" crowd and the more open-minded sects that people like EL embrace. I respect anyone, Christian, atheist (or Pagan, like myself), who respects the right to dissent. That is all that I have to say on this matter.

[/I]

~~~~~~~~~

SeverusMax...I did not respond to this...still catching up on reading.

I think early man's attempts to understand the world around him, through religion and philosophy were necessary steps toward enlightenment.

I do not think, here in the 21st century, that we need the baggage of an ancient religion to serve as a foundation for our moral and ethical decisions.

The entire course of mankind, with many bumps and ups and downs along the way, has been to understand and comprehend the reality of the world we inhabit.

A necessary ingredient in that search for truth, is to cast out all aspects of faith and belief and deal with what is, not what we might wish to be.

There is no God, there is no life after death, there is no ultimate reason, outside life itself, for existence; it simply 'is'.

If you, and others, wish to continue basking in faith and belief, fine, do so. The rest of the modern world moves on to discover answers.

I yearn to see the day when all the silly assed religious wars and conflicts are but yellowed pages in a dusty history book.


amicus...

 

[English Lady]

Thanks, Severus. *blushes*


Amicus -I suspect if people weren't using religion as an excuse to kick the shit out of each other they'd find another excuse to do so.

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

[/I]

~~~~~~~~~

SeverusMax...I did not respond to this...still catching up on reading.

I think early man's attempts to understand the world around him, through religion and philosophy were necessary steps toward enlightenment.

I do not think, here in the 21st century, that we need the baggage of an ancient religion to serve as a foundation for our moral and ethical decisions.

The entire course of mankind, with many bumps and ups and downs along the way, has been to understand and comprehend the reality of the world we inhabit.

A necessary ingredient in that search for truth, is to cast out all aspects of faith and belief and deal with what is, not what we might wish to be.

There is no God, there is no life after death, there is no ultimate reason, outside life itself, for existence; it simply 'is'.

If you, and others, wish to continue basking in faith and belief, fine, do so. The rest of the modern world moves on to discover answers.

I yearn to see the day when all the silly assed religious wars and conflicts are but yellowed pages in a dusty history book.


amicus...

If you think that my religion is inconsistent with science and "modernity", think again. I am a pagan, yes, but that doesn't mean that I think that lightning LITERALLY comes from Zeus on Olympus, or any other such thing. To me, the Gods are symbols of the forces of Nature. There is no conflict between such a reverence for Nature and the theory of natural selection, for instance.

I was simply pointing out that my religion is a very ancient one, which gives me distance from the whole "Christian vs. atheist" debate.

Also, I noted that not all Christians hold to the same apocalyptic view of the future. Simply because it isn't MY religion doesn't mean that I am going to lump all of its adherents together in one group. I DEFINITELY do not mistake EL's or my brother's versions of Christianity with the tired old "orthodoxy" of my parents.

And, EL, you're welcum. I didn't mean to embarrass you, my dear lady.

 

[English Lady]

Ahhh, Severus, you've not embarassed me, just brought a warm flush to the cheeks. I enjoyed it...feel free to do it again

 

[SEVERUSMAX]

Ahhh, Severus, you've not embarassed me, just brought a warm flush to the cheeks. I enjoyed it...feel free to do it again

I'll take that as an open invitation, EL.