shaming the evil American Empire

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Let's clear the air over Kyoto - it's simply daft economics and dubious science

PHILIP STOTT

When Europe was told in March that President Bush had “no interest” in implementing the Kyoto protocol, it went hysterical. It was worse than his predecessor not having had sex with “that woman”. “The Toxic Texan” had blasphemed against good liberal taste and was instantly transmogrified into what one German newspaper has called the “Climate Killer”.
This week European ecochondria returned to Bonn, where 180 countries are meeting, yet again, for 11 days to try to find a diplomatic solution to the impasse. Europe remains theologically committed to the protocol, an extension of the Rio convention, which gave all developed countries legally-binding targets for cuts in their emissions of so-called greenhouse gases from 1990 levels — the EU 8 per cent and the US 7 per cent — to be achieved by 2008-12.

Unfortunately, the economists who made these calculations failed to take into account economic growth, especially in the IT sector, which now means that, for the United States to meet the target, it would need to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by up to 40 per cent, a political and economic impossibility. We would do well to recall that even under the seemingly environmentally friendly Clinton-Gore Administration the Senate rejected Kyoto by 95 to 0.

Europe, however, continues to argue that Kyoto is the only way forward. But is it? Standing back from the hype, it becomes obvious that its command-and-control approach to climate change will not work, politically, economically, or scientifically.

Economic models suggest that if Kyoto goes ahead, somewhere between $20 and $170 billion will flow into the great black hole that is Russia and the Ukraine. Both countries have struggling economies currently producing barely half of their 1990 emission levels. So they were all too ready to agree to freeze their emissions to 1990 levels, well knowing that this would give them massive carbon credits to trade and sell. And Russia is now back in Bonn, seeking even more credits.

Just think what could be done with such funds. David G. Victor, of the Council for Foreign Relations, an American think-tank, has argued that $20 billion dollars would be sufficient to wipe out the public debt of 22 countries. And Jeffrey Sachs, of Harvard University, has shown that a mere $5 billion of external aid could begin to manage the Aids epidemic which is sweeping Africa. Genuine “green” alternatives are endless.

Yet Kyoto will cost billions of dollars to implement — according to one estimate $350 billion — money which could be spent on clean water for the world or clearing the public debt of all 41 of the world’s poorest countries.

We have, therefore, to be very sure that Kyoto will work scientifically. And here is the rub. It won’t. Even if all 180 countries were to sign up and meet their targets — a most unlikely scenario — the inherent complexity of climate means that there is no more than a possibility that temperature would be reduced by between 0.07 and 0.2 Celsius by 2100.

Moreover, climate remains way beyond the grasp of our computer models, so that the millions of factors controlling climate change will probably confound us all by doing something totally unpredictable. And we will have squandered the money we need to continue to grow, to adapt and to develop.

Sadly, for Europe, Kyoto has become gesture politics; for many greens it is simply another chance to shame the evil American Empire. In reality, Kyoto is a self-indulgent, dangerously expensive exercise that will do nothing to help the poor or to control climate, a force over which we have no more control than did King Canute over the waves and the tides.

And how moral is this strident European position? It is worth noting that the countries of the EU produce nearly double the carbon dioxide emissions of the United States per unit area, a fact rarely mentioned. Secondly, few countries in Europe are anywhere near meeting their own Kyoto targets. Thirdly, at the November 2000 negotiations in The Hague it was the fundamentalist “green” countries of Europe, such as France and Sweden, which undermined John Prescott’s attempts to make a pragmatic deal with the American negotiators. No wonder Mr Prescott became punchdrunk and lost his temper with the French environment Minister, Dominique Voynet.

Kyoto will not work, and the sooner Europe recognises this the better. The way forward must be through incentives for energy diversification, the normal economic process of decarbonisation and adaptation to climate change, whatever its direction. We in Europe should stop throwing petulant stones in the greenhouse.


Philip Stott is Professor of Biogeography at the School of Oriental and African Studies (SOAS) in the University of London.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,248-2001243833,00.html
 
Philip Stott is a popular author...

...of books about ecology and spends a lot of time defending the USA on its environmental policies. He also spends a lot of time attacking Europe on the same issues.

He writes in an easy relaxed style and quotes many statistics comparing like with like. For instance the amount of toxic emissions produced by America against those produced by the European Union.

But although he writes convincingly he does not produce all the facts but rather filters out those that do not fit in with his theories. For instance the concentration of industry in Europe compared to the US.

He's no different from anyone else really. We're all defending our own corner.

Anyway here's his pic...
 
The agreement would cripple the US economy. I actually agree with that. (Shit! I agree with Bush! Did Hell just freeze over?)

I'm waiting to see what the year brings. The US is conducting its own study, and will either follow or recommend a policy soon.

I'm waitng to see what happens with Hydrogen fuel cells (which are pretty darn cool if you don't know what they are -- they produced energy and give off water -- sci fi stuff).

I also think developing countries should be held more accountable. Yeah, yeah, we all got rich on pollution, so why shouldn't they, right? To some extent I agree with that feeling, but the consideration they've been given is much, much too lax, considering how much they pour into the atmosphere. Kyoto is flawed.

But if dropping Kyoto means dropping SOME sort of initiative, I'd be pissed. But I don't think that's what's happening here. So I can wait 12 months.

In the meantime what we need to do is kill all the flatulent termites and burping cows. Now THERE'S a policy we can all agree on.
 
statistics can be used to prove anything everybody knows that ... the fact is america for whatever reason is the biggist producer of green house gas'es and for them to pull out of the kyoto agreement is very disturbing ... as far as i can tell the american solution is too do nothing and wait for technology to catch up so that will reduce the green house gas'es ... this seems a very backward step especially considoring i presume that the kyoto agreement would increase the technology advances in this area and fast track them into being used ... people dont seem to considor that the kyoto agreement took over 10 years to get as far as it has and bush proposing to simply agree a new one would set it back 10 years or more ... with the fact that the kyoto agreement is still not final yet it seems strange that bush pulled out of it all together rather then trying to "make" the kyoto agreement work ....

im guessing that he just owes a few million dollers worth of favours for all the donations made to his election campian i guess all that money wasnt given out of the kindness of peoples hearts ... and pulling out of the kyoto agreement and proposals to dig for oil in alaska seem to be the price the world has to pay for bush being the president
 
Okay, I'm not fan of Bush's, by any leap of the imagination, but that was (please excuse me) a dumb post. The American solution is not to "do nothing" and Bush isn't paying back favors by polluting the world. Don't be silly. The man's a dope and will certainly scratch the backs that scratched his, but that doesn't change the fact that Kyoto is bad science and bad economic planning, and that a better solution is possible. That's all that's going on here.
 
so what is the american plan ... i still dont understand why they pulled out of the kyoto agreement ... it is not bad science to reduce green house gas'es ... they do need to be reduced not to reduce global warming but to stop it getting worse ... your right we dont understand the green house effect or all the mechanics of it but that just makes it more importent that we reduce green house gas'es now there has been some reports that suggest global warming and the green house effect is worse then believed ... the kyoto agreement isnt final yet japan has put itself on "standby" why didnt the americans do something like this rather then pulling out of it all together ... it will take at least 10 years to agree a new global plan and to get everyone to sign up to it ... i was maybe slightly exgarating the "i scratch your back" theory but bush did get alot of surport from industry in particular oil companys this was because of his enviromental stance of putting industry and money first over the enviroment ... you cant deny that
 
Sounds good DCL, but there's a serious problem with the hydrogen fuel cell; the byproduct of its combustion. But we aren't hearing this danger, are we?

The newest looming terror in our atmosphere is Dihydrous Oxide. While there are natural sources, it is the single byproduct of fuel combustion in the hydrogen fuel cell. This dangerous chemical compound is presently responsible for 4,100 deaths a year in the United States alone, and our lakes, streams and rivers are already full of it.
 
Yeah, Bill, I know, but the byproduct is not "exhaust" but something that evaporates in the engine, and is so miniscule as to almost be completly discounted. Still, manufacturers are working on a way to eliminate even that (because it doesn't exactly meet zero emiision standards -- although it comes damn close). Even if they didn't, the hydrogen fuel cell still light years ahead of gasoline powered engines. (And I don't think "Zero" emission is possible until we can do, essentially, what the sun does, and use fusion.)

I also like the idea of carbon-dioxide eating algea that's being developed. I honestly think that zero emiisions alone won't do it for us -- we have to clean up what's already there. (I even read something about mylar balloons in the upper atmosphere, used for reflecting sunlight. Interesting, if bizarre, idea.)
 
Just a thought here, but while there's a nice long article defending Bush's decision to not partake in the Kyoto agreement something crossed my mind.....negotiation?

I actually agree that the current conditions of the Kyoto treaty are somewhat difficult to implement and forecast, but however, wouldn't it have been a better solution to attempt some sort of negotiation? Strangely the US were present as mediators during discussions, but wouldn't it have been a good idea to at least be present as a negotiator to try and batter the agreement into something more viable?
 
i agree fully it was almost one of the first things bush did as soon as he was president to pull out of the kyoto agreement to me it was very strange he pulled out all together ... and i really do wonder if he had mentioned his plan to do this to some of the industrys it is worth billions to them
 
Yeah sexy-girl's right...

not a word before the election...not a word during the election...then -

Flash! Bang! Wallap! What a picture.

It certainly looks as if he was paying off debts.

The trouble is now that industry is waking up to the fact that there's a lot of money to be made in manufacturing and selling alternative energy sources, some estimates reckon the profits to be made are larger than can be made at present, what's Bush going to do next?

Say sorry he made a mistake and backtrack on his actions of the last few months.

He said he's got plans which he's going to share with the rest of us later in the year so I'm happy to wait until then. Maybe the man will come up trumps.
 
PPM

The trouble is now that industry is waking up to the fact that there's a lot of money to be made in manufacturing and selling alternative energy sources, some estimates reckon the profits to be made are larger than can be made at present


Maybe in your part of the world. If so much money could be made on alternatives there would be plenty of companies already doing it.
 
sexy-girl said:
i agree fully it was almost one of the first things bush did as soon as he was president to pull out of the kyoto agreement to me it was very strange he pulled out all together ... and i really do wonder if he had mentioned his plan to do this to some of the industrys it is worth billions to them

It was one of the first things laid on his plate because the Senate had just refused to ratify it 95-0. He had two choices, send it back to the Senate and let them vote again or accept their refusal and move on.

It sounds to me like you all are trying to say Bush pulled the US out of the agreement, the SENATE has to ratify all treaties and agreements that the President enters into on behalf of the nation and they refused. It's one of those balance of powers issues that seems to be a truly American concept.
 
Re: PPM

miles said:
Maybe in your part of the world. If so much money could be made on alternatives there would be plenty of companies already doing it.

They are. It's a sort of news breaking thing. I noticed it first last week watching a fairly obscure interview on TV when the bloke being interviewed raised it more or less in passing.

Then over the next few days I noticed it being mentioned more and more on news and current affairs programs.

It's also mentioned on another thread.

So the secret's out!

;)
 
All Right fellow north americans lets make the Europeans happy. Turn everything off, shut down the power plants trash the cars.

Lets all live in stick houses, wearing dead animal pelts.

Nope we can't use fire either we have to eat evertything raw, fire is bad, think of all those gases.

there turning back the clock and living like its 2001 BC should make the europeans happy.
 
Originally posted by Dixon Carter Lee
Yeah, Bill, I know, but the byproduct is not "exhaust" but something that evaporates in the engine, and is so miniscule as to almost be completly discounted. Still, manufacturers are working on a way to eliminate even that (because it doesn't exactly meet zero emiision standards -- although it comes damn close). Even if they didn't, the hydrogen fuel cell still light years ahead of gasoline powered engines. (And I don't think "Zero" emission is possible until we can do, essentially, what the sun does, and use fusion.)
Even though it evaporates in the engine, it's still emitted into the atmosphere. As a result, the vapor is carried everywhere and is "cleansed" from the atmosphere by clouds and rain. As a result, it ends up saturating portions of our land areas and infiltrates the water table, lakes, rivers and streams.

Originally posted by Dixon Carter Lee
I also like the idea of carbon-dioxide eating algea that's being developed. I honestly think that zero emiisions alone won't do it for us -- we have to clean up what's already there. (I even read something about mylar balloons in the upper atmosphere, used for reflecting sunlight. Interesting, if bizarre, idea.)
I understand they are making vast strides in this field. They're also discovering other non-technological means for removing CO2 from the atmosphere.

Originally posted by Todd
All Right fellow north americans lets make the Europeans happy. Turn everything off, shut down the power plants trash the cars.
Hey, Todd, are you on the advisory staff of Mein Fuhrer Gray Davis, California's illustrious governor? He's already implementing your advice.
 
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Sexy-girl

The US produces more pollution than anyone else, but we also produce more goods more efficiently than anyone anywhere, we have one of the world's largest populations in a spread out area. Since we make more things, we need more energy. Of course we will pollute more than Germany or Britain, or a less industrial country like Russia.

Bush did not hide the fact that he was going to be a friend to energy. He came to West Virginia and won the most stringently Democratic state in the US because of his commitment towards making our energy deposits work in better ways

But, since we dont surrender before the demands of Europe, we're the bad guys.

I still believe the real agenda is reducing some of the US industrial competitive advantages that allow us to be more efficient
 
thats is why the agreement was to reduce green house gas's by a percentage not by a total amount it shouldnt be so difficult for america to do this if you have the most efficient production methods in the world ... and we are not asking you to back to the dark ages infact we're asking you to look to the future and to improve your manufaction industrys ... and its not just europe asking you to "surrender" the whole world agrees with the kyoto agreement and into making it work ... yet america seems to be completely unwilling to listen to the world opinion ... even china seems to care more about world opinion then america under the bush presidency (so far) ... take the missile program as another example (although thats not what this thread is about) also i would like to point out that in the koyot agreement america only had to reduce pollution by 6% or 7% where as europe had to reduce it by 8%
 
sexy-girl said:
also i would like to point out that in the koyot agreement america only had to reduce pollution by 6% or 7% where as europe had to reduce it by 8%

7% from 1990 levels.. this is 2001. You are talking about a 40% reduction.
 
so what will it be in another 10 years 80% ... im sorry but i dont feel sorry for america that they agreed to a percentage that was less then europe and now are moaning because that percentage has gone up because america didnt try to reduce the gas's then .. i know that the rest of the world and europe levels have probably gone up on 1990 levels but for it to rise by 40% is pretty bad ... but it still remains that america pulled out completley why didnt they try to negeociate a reduction in the percentage that was to be reduced it would of been a start or at least stopped things getting worse ... do you agee or disagree that bush isnt a enviromentally friendly president
 
bush? environment? same sentence?

I think anyone who would claim Bush was an environmentally friendly president would probably also claim that crack is good for you. Then again I think that anyone who would call Bush a president would also tell you crack is good for you. I know that I will probably get a rash of backlash from saying that...but c'mon guys...is he really that good? Or is he just a really good puppet...oh and sexy girl...youre right on!
rabo
 
Ugh. Okay. Here are cold hard statistics. These statistics are produced by independent analysts from WEFA and Charles River Associates. Okay? I think their integrity is pretty high consider they have nothing to gain from supporting either side and they were commissioned by the Clinton "Go Kyoto!" administration.

Observers believe some businesses back the accord because they'll make money on it. The Clinton administration hopes signing it will give the U.S. leverage on how the treaty is enforced. But the majority of U.S. businesses still oppose it, and use the U.S. Energy Department's own estimates of the impact on the economy as evidence. The Energy Department says that by 2010:

Real gross domestic product (GDP) will be down 4.1 percent, or $397 billion.

The price of gas will be up 66 cents per gallon.

The price of electricity will be up 86 percent.

Other predictions come from the economic consulting firm, WEFA:

The price of home heating oil will be up 70 percent.

Manufacturing wages will be down 2.1 percent.

There will be 2.4 million fewer jobs.

Real GDP per household will be down $2,728.

Now, consider this. CHINA, the SECOND largest EMITTER or CO2 is TOTALLY EXEMPT from Kyoto. The estimate is that they will surpass the US in total CO2 emissions by the year 2025.

Do you have any idea how much it will cost the UK to implement Kyoto? UK runs coal burning power plants. ALL of your electricity comes from HEAVILY EMITTING plants who will have to be shut down and rebuilt or retrofitted to bring emissions down. The cost of which hasn't been estimated. Why? Doesn't anyone in the UK give a fuck how much Kyoto will cost them?

What about nitrates and other gasses produced from manufacturing, power plants, and automobiles? Kyoto doesn't even deal with those gasses except in passing and they cause more harm than CO2 causes.

And finally, the MAJORITY of the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY (not the idiots who could study shit) believe that CO2 levels are not only NOT causing global warming, that they are causing a slight cooling and are beneficial to the flora who eat is.

The danger of Kyoto is that it assumes we know what is causing global warming. It assumes that it fixes the problem. The truth is that we have no idea what's causing global warming, if it truly exists, and how to fix the problem. Kyoto doesn't do diddly shit to stop pollution and it's flawed.

The US is trying to come up with some sort of accord that will cut pollution, not lead to a major economic depression, and will include the WHOLE WORLD, not just 33 industrialized nations. Didn't know that? Kyoto only requires that 33 industrialized nations cut, lower, and prevent future emissions. Emerging nations, the ones who will be getting the industry from Kyoto bound nations, are the ones who are totally exempt from Kyoto. Like China. North Korea. India. Burma. Africa in it's entirety. Mexico. Do you honestly believe that auto manufacturers will stay in the US when they can move to Mexico and not deal with environmental issues.

I don't think anyone who supports Kyoto has actually researched into it on both sides of the issue. I think we're all assuming that it's better than nothing and it shows environmental commitment. This is bullshit.
 
obviously the 33 industrial countrys that are choosing and wanting to sign the kyoto agreement are morons then :) ... the report you produced mentions the economic concerns america has ... i dont think this is a good enough reason not to go ahead with saving the enviroment though ... also i believe that there will be some economic plus'es from signing the treaty in the refitting of old industrys and new technologys put into use ... i also think the "MAJORITY of the SCIENTIFIC COMMUNITY" believe that cardon dioxide levels are harmful to the enviroment and will become worse if levels carry on rising ... saying its too expensive isnt a good enough arguement and im glad the english goverment agrees with me on this :)
 
by the way Japan is the second largeist emitter of green house gas'es not China
 
Since 1970, the United States has reduced its emissions of carbon dioxide by 31 percent, even though its energy consumption went up by 42 percent in the same period. Go ahead and sign your bash America agreement. We'll find our own solutions.


KillerMuffin said:
The Energy Department says that by 2010:

Real gross domestic product (GDP) will be down 4.1 percent, or $397 billion.

The price of gas will be up 66 cents per gallon.

The price of electricity will be up 86 percent.

Other predictions come from the economic consulting firm, WEFA:

The price of home heating oil will be up 70 percent.

Manufacturing wages will be down 2.1 percent.

There will be 2.4 million fewer jobs.

Real GDP per household will be down $2,728.

.

That would put us on a level playing field with Europe which is the whole point. When communism died (outside of China, Cuba, and North Korea) the left side of the socialists turned from red to green. They could care less about the environment. It's all about furthering their agenda of destroying capitalism.
 
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