Shallow Excavations - (critique please)
- Thread starter Zhuk
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champagne1982
Dangerous Liaison
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hi,Zhuk said:
this is a little rough for me to get so i'll just comment on one thing that halted me. "Amidst ashy mists" gets in the way of my tongue and makes me feel like i'm lisping when i don't have that speech impediment. "among ashy mists" or haze. Unless of course that's what you were shootin' at, then you hit bang on target.
I love the second stanza.
Zhuk said:
Sooo are terracotta artifacts the fourth dimension? Is the free hyphen hinting that everything since the hyphen in three-dimensional is a parenthetical excerpt and what was really found was merely three terracotta artifacts?
While I enjoy the idea of three dimensional murals being hintedly encrusted by a fourth dimension of time, the grammar in this stanza is confusing and is obscuring for me the image you may be making.
The images in the first stanza and suggestive of location and I enjoyed them.
Thank you for your comments
Wicked Eve, Champagne and THenry,
Thank you all for your suggestions. All of you make very valid points.
THenry,
You are absolutely right. I used the hyphen as, what Guru ji would call, a "cheap shortcut". I need to straighten it out. Any suggestions?
Regards,
Zhuk
Wicked Eve, Champagne and THenry,
Thank you all for your suggestions. All of you make very valid points.
THenry,
You are absolutely right. I used the hyphen as, what Guru ji would call, a "cheap shortcut". I need to straighten it out. Any suggestions?
Regards,
Zhuk
Senna Jawa
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Re: Re: Shallow Excavations - (critique please)
with sporadic bursts of fused fervor
would be a mouthful of grammar and logic instead of image, and it would sound wordy, uninteresting (relatively).
The second reason is important too. As it is it scans well. The other way it would not, not at all.
And the third and more subtle reason: as it is, the alliterations work nicely. It is an interesting point which deserves another post (actually this issue relates to champagne's comment).
Regards,
Eve and Zhuk, Eve would like to have a standard, "grammatical" flow. In my opinion "with", despite its "unnatural" position, is fine where it is. The main reason is that this way we get a full, clean impact of the image in the second line,, while the first image stands out just the same, the "with" is not affecting it adversely. On the other hand, if we follow Eve's sugestion then line:WickedEve said:
with sporadic bursts of fused fervor
would be a mouthful of grammar and logic instead of image, and it would sound wordy, uninteresting (relatively).
The second reason is important too. As it is it scans well. The other way it would not, not at all.
And the third and more subtle reason: as it is, the alliterations work nicely. It is an interesting point which deserves another post (actually this issue relates to champagne's comment).
Regards,
Icingsugar
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I agree with Senna here...
with sporadic bursts of fused fervor
...would fall too much visually and rhythmically out of the poem's compact form.
You could experiment with other ways to stucture those lines. For instance...
Amidst ashy mists,
with sporadic bursts
of fused fervor,
...would give it a slightly different flow. Better? Worse? That's up to you. Starting too many lines with prepositions might be a bit jinxing too though. But tugging at the formatting can sometimes reveal new aspects of a text.
An alltogether different thing: Who is the target audience for this? It could be my limited vocabulary, but I find it very hard to follow the elaborate imagery and language constucts sometimes, simply because I had to stop and try to figure out what the *bleep* an umbilical cord is.
best of luck,
/Ice
with sporadic bursts of fused fervor
...would fall too much visually and rhythmically out of the poem's compact form.
You could experiment with other ways to stucture those lines. For instance...
Amidst ashy mists,
with sporadic bursts
of fused fervor,
...would give it a slightly different flow. Better? Worse? That's up to you. Starting too many lines with prepositions might be a bit jinxing too though. But tugging at the formatting can sometimes reveal new aspects of a text.
An alltogether different thing: Who is the target audience for this? It could be my limited vocabulary, but I find it very hard to follow the elaborate imagery and language constucts sometimes, simply because I had to stop and try to figure out what the *bleep* an umbilical cord is.
best of luck,
/Ice
Senna Jawa
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Shallow Excavations - (critique please)
Perhaps. It's up to the authorWickedEve said:
Senna Jawa
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Re: Re: Shallow Excavations - (critique please)
Pronounciation difficulty is not necessarily a drawback, and in good poems it is but a good challenge and a pleasure for the mouth. I believe that here it is the case. One has to pronounce the lines a bit slower, each syllabale has to be pronounced carefully, and it is worth it.
Best regards,
Champagne, I answered your post once, and Literotica just refused to accept it, something about the system having pm cramps. This time I'll be brief.champagne1982 said:
Pronounciation difficulty is not necessarily a drawback, and in good poems it is but a good challenge and a pleasure for the mouth. I believe that here it is the case. One has to pronounce the lines a bit slower, each syllabale has to be pronounced carefully, and it is worth it.
Best regards,
Senna Jawa
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Zhuk, your poem has references to time: excavations, formative, turbans, murals, fourth dimension, archeologists, unearth. That's good, that's nice. At the same time this is a nervous poem, full of anxiety, possibly of bitterness. That's interesting. And in this way your poem is dynamic and lively. However, the "why" or "where from" of this anxiety is not clear (to me).
The phrase "three-dimensional murals" needs a bit of poetic license but it's nice anyway, together with the next graceful line.
I wonder how many poems feature time as the fourth dimension. I had it in one, years ago, but I don't remember any other poem by anybody.
Berst regards,
The phrase "three-dimensional murals" needs a bit of poetic license but it's nice anyway, together with the next graceful line.
I wonder how many poems feature time as the fourth dimension. I had it in one, years ago, but I don't remember any other poem by anybody.
Berst regards,
Senna Jawa
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Re: Re: Shallow Excavations - (critique please)
Where the rocks rain,
three-dimensional murals
get encrusted by the fourth -
terracotta artifacts
for archaeologists to unearth.
I don't feel that there is anything drastically wrong with the hyphen and the surrounding grammar (possibly my English sensitivity is not English enough). I would only have the following two minor objections: "get" is colloquial and inelegant. I don't see how to fix it (possibly there is no easy fix; poetry is not easy). The other objection: after a hyphen positioned at the strategic point near the end of the poem I would expect something more profound then a simple, partial, concrete explanation of the meaning of the hyphen preceding phrase.
Possibly my both objections can be addressed by a reversal of the order around the hyphen. Then the final four-dimensional accord may sound extra strong.
Best regards,
Let's look at the stanza in question:thenry said:
Where the rocks rain,
three-dimensional murals
get encrusted by the fourth -
terracotta artifacts
for archaeologists to unearth.
I don't feel that there is anything drastically wrong with the hyphen and the surrounding grammar (possibly my English sensitivity is not English enough). I would only have the following two minor objections: "get" is colloquial and inelegant. I don't see how to fix it (possibly there is no easy fix; poetry is not easy). The other objection: after a hyphen positioned at the strategic point near the end of the poem I would expect something more profound then a simple, partial, concrete explanation of the meaning of the hyphen preceding phrase.
Possibly my both objections can be addressed by a reversal of the order around the hyphen. Then the final four-dimensional accord may sound extra strong.
Best regards,
Re: Thank you for your comments
Now that I think about it, the problem for me was more interesting than any solution. As Senna Jawa has said, what follows the second hyphen lacked profundity so I was looking for alternate explanations and what leapt at me was a pairing with the other hyphen in the same stanza. The grammar of the sentence held ("three terracotta artifacts") and I was intrigued.
What I'm thinking now is clearly digging in too deeply and would require a different poem. I've been pondering the idea of three-dimensional murals not as physical objects but as empty space filled with memories or perhaps even the people themselves. I assume you are talking about a pompeii-esque scene and the shapes of these empty spaces is held only because of the raining rocks which destroyed them. Given enough time, the three-dimensional murals are reduced in fact to (three) terracotta artifacts.
But as to your actual question, changing or removing one of the hyphens would solve the visual paring problem, though not elimate the short-cut issue.
Zhuk said:
Now that I think about it, the problem for me was more interesting than any solution. As Senna Jawa has said, what follows the second hyphen lacked profundity so I was looking for alternate explanations and what leapt at me was a pairing with the other hyphen in the same stanza. The grammar of the sentence held ("three terracotta artifacts") and I was intrigued.
What I'm thinking now is clearly digging in too deeply and would require a different poem. I've been pondering the idea of three-dimensional murals not as physical objects but as empty space filled with memories or perhaps even the people themselves. I assume you are talking about a pompeii-esque scene and the shapes of these empty spaces is held only because of the raining rocks which destroyed them. Given enough time, the three-dimensional murals are reduced in fact to (three) terracotta artifacts.
But as to your actual question, changing or removing one of the hyphens would solve the visual paring problem, though not elimate the short-cut issue.
Thank you for your comments
Thank you Guru ji, Wicked Eve, Icing Sugar, THenry for your comments.
My parents visited Pompeii about 10 years back. They made a nice video recording of the trip. The scene and my parents' description has been stuck in my mind since then.
Regards,
Zhuk
Thank you Guru ji, Wicked Eve, Icing Sugar, THenry for your comments.
My parents visited Pompeii about 10 years back. They made a nice video recording of the trip. The scene and my parents' description has been stuck in my mind since then.
Regards,
Zhuk
thenry said:
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I've been myself. What impresses me about ancient abandoned cities, versus modern cities with ancient origins, is the clarity with which I feel the inhabitants were just like me. And doubly so for Pompeii's stepping stones across the deep streets.
The image that never leaves me, however, is the plaster mold of the pregnant woman on her stomach.
The image that never leaves me, however, is the plaster mold of the pregnant woman on her stomach.
Angeline
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Zhuk said:
I did not get this poem (perhaps I am having a thick day--who knows), and wanted to see what others said before I commented. Now that I understand you mean an actual excavation site, I have a few suggestions.
First, I'd work in a reference to a physical location to help the reader set a context for the poem. I don't think poetry has to be so crystal clear that all metaphor is unnecessary, but I also don't think a reader should need to be a mental contortionist to get a writer's meaning. I understand Senna's comment about the temporal words, but some--terracotta and turban, for example, are temporal indirectly; their primary meanings are not about time, necessarily. This--in the absence of a guiding reference--muddies the poem for me.
Second--I am confused by the use of present tense of the verb--particularly with active verbs. Forgive my ignorance, but while I know Vesuvius is an active volcano, I don't know whether there has been (e.g., in modern history) damage from volcanic activity to the excavated city. Has there? If not, why do "slopes spin" and "rocks rain"? Should these be past tense? That would have given me another contextual clue.
And finally, this poem seems purely descriptive to me--more so than your other post, even. I don't have a real problem with that other than to say that (though I've erred on the side of pedantic in my own poetry) while description that leads nowhere can be interesting, closure or at least conclusions are good, too. Just some food for thought.
A.
Senna Jawa
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Re: Re: Thank you for your comments
Such a small thing and soooo confusing. To me the hyphen in "three-dimensional" didn't exist in my mind, there was just one compound word "threedimensional". Somehow you, Thenry, are considering a possiblility of separating this composite word, thus interpreting the text as "three things", which has never occured to me and would never if not for you. I don't think that it is a "legal", justified way to read this poem.
When you were saying "hyphen" I was reading "dash". I saw just one dash, it preceded the last two lines.
Regards,
What second hyphen?thenry said:
Such a small thing and soooo confusing. To me the hyphen in "three-dimensional" didn't exist in my mind, there was just one compound word "threedimensional". Somehow you, Thenry, are considering a possiblility of separating this composite word, thus interpreting the text as "three things", which has never occured to me and would never if not for you. I don't think that it is a "legal", justified way to read this poem.
When you were saying "hyphen" I was reading "dash". I saw just one dash, it preceded the last two lines.
Regards,
Last edited:
Re: Re: Re: Thank you for your comments
Interesting. While I would like to propose it as a difference between primary and secondary language readers, it is more likely a peculiarity with myself that I saw the shape of the hyphen/dash without the attendant rules when looking for an alternate interpretation. This is something of an automatic response for me upon a second reading when looking for further levels of meaning.
While I have often considered the rules of writing poetry, I had never considered the rules of reading. It may only have been my writing teacher, but I was taught everything on the page was put down for a reason. However, I have found that layers of meaning built into the visual and grammatical structure of a poem work best when introduced by accident. Attempting them on purpose requires too much of a sacrifice in primary meaning.
The best example I ever saw of the former I do not possess to show. It was a poem exploring the meaning in a series of Rothko paintings that also happened to visually mimic their structure (two square blocks with a tranverse line or space). As to an example of the latter I dutifully pony up the following of my own, "Real Silence." While I feel no real meaning was ever established, the line padding necessary to complete the visual structure made the poem too difficult to read except as a pleasant sounding narrative anyway. Compromises were made with regard to grammar, tone, and tense in order have eight syllables per line. On the other hand, its symmetry is too pleasing to my eye to mar.
"Real Silence"
Funny thing is, about silence:
the less there is, the less it's worth.
It's kind of like a tide of joy
which at this ebbing leaves exposed
the jagged rocks of fear, perhaps
and because some small lack of it,
silence, brings no small pain to me,
while too much joy leaves the colors
and smells caked hard as if the globes
of my eyes are dry pastels, large
grained and too slow, instead of the
water colors which run through my
fingers and down my beard when now's
tide of joy ebbs again. This too
shall pass, I should tattoo within
my eyelids, but how will I still
remember when they are open?
Now that I have been struck, the rose
blooms beneath my skin and I taste
of love and blood and bitter and
wonder what will happen in my
moments next. Sometimes it rains. No,
no thank you, please, well. It's the case
that if I took one I'd find mine
contemplating the abyss and
waiting for an Abaddon to
describe for me the arachnid
cold spaces that branch from near now
to points unknown far beyond where
little pink pills will take me. On
the other hand I could just wait
for it to go away. The hard
ways are very hard, but not so
very hard as the easy way,
I've just learned. And anyway, each
ends with trials. Sometimes I see
love as a veil put between me
and another to easily
select the qualities of my
desire. Sometimes veils are too close
for me to see. Sometimes veils are
funny things, so trying. The whole
world changing, tides changing and eyes
as well, only skin is left on
which to cling, to dangle like the
basket from a balloon over
bare rocks of fear and time. I fear
sometimes, my eyes, that the world goes
on when I'm alone, my hair grow-
ing long, that if not written down
nothing ever happens. I've been
alone in this house for days, have
not spoken to anyone and
I wonder now where I am. Fears
want to become real, so I
do my best not to ask the same.
Senna Jawa said:
Interesting. While I would like to propose it as a difference between primary and secondary language readers, it is more likely a peculiarity with myself that I saw the shape of the hyphen/dash without the attendant rules when looking for an alternate interpretation. This is something of an automatic response for me upon a second reading when looking for further levels of meaning.
While I have often considered the rules of writing poetry, I had never considered the rules of reading. It may only have been my writing teacher, but I was taught everything on the page was put down for a reason. However, I have found that layers of meaning built into the visual and grammatical structure of a poem work best when introduced by accident. Attempting them on purpose requires too much of a sacrifice in primary meaning.
The best example I ever saw of the former I do not possess to show. It was a poem exploring the meaning in a series of Rothko paintings that also happened to visually mimic their structure (two square blocks with a tranverse line or space). As to an example of the latter I dutifully pony up the following of my own, "Real Silence." While I feel no real meaning was ever established, the line padding necessary to complete the visual structure made the poem too difficult to read except as a pleasant sounding narrative anyway. Compromises were made with regard to grammar, tone, and tense in order have eight syllables per line. On the other hand, its symmetry is too pleasing to my eye to mar.
"Real Silence"
Funny thing is, about silence:
the less there is, the less it's worth.
It's kind of like a tide of joy
which at this ebbing leaves exposed
the jagged rocks of fear, perhaps
and because some small lack of it,
silence, brings no small pain to me,
while too much joy leaves the colors
and smells caked hard as if the globes
of my eyes are dry pastels, large
grained and too slow, instead of the
water colors which run through my
fingers and down my beard when now's
tide of joy ebbs again. This too
shall pass, I should tattoo within
my eyelids, but how will I still
remember when they are open?
Now that I have been struck, the rose
blooms beneath my skin and I taste
of love and blood and bitter and
wonder what will happen in my
moments next. Sometimes it rains. No,
no thank you, please, well. It's the case
that if I took one I'd find mine
contemplating the abyss and
waiting for an Abaddon to
describe for me the arachnid
cold spaces that branch from near now
to points unknown far beyond where
little pink pills will take me. On
the other hand I could just wait
for it to go away. The hard
ways are very hard, but not so
very hard as the easy way,
I've just learned. And anyway, each
ends with trials. Sometimes I see
love as a veil put between me
and another to easily
select the qualities of my
desire. Sometimes veils are too close
for me to see. Sometimes veils are
funny things, so trying. The whole
world changing, tides changing and eyes
as well, only skin is left on
which to cling, to dangle like the
basket from a balloon over
bare rocks of fear and time. I fear
sometimes, my eyes, that the world goes
on when I'm alone, my hair grow-
ing long, that if not written down
nothing ever happens. I've been
alone in this house for days, have
not spoken to anyone and
I wonder now where I am. Fears
want to become real, so I
do my best not to ask the same.
Thank you Angeline (careful as ever) for you comments.
The poem is about me in a way and till date, as this post will confirm, I am still at it. Therefore the use of present tense.
Regards,
Zhuk
The poem is about me in a way and till date, as this post will confirm, I am still at it.
Therefore the use of present tense. Regards,
Zhuk
Angeline said:I did not get this poem (perhaps I am having a thick day--who knows), and wanted to see what others said before I commented. Now that I understand you mean an actual excavation site, I have a few suggestions.
First, I'd work in a reference to a physical location to help the reader set a context for the poem. I don't think poetry has to be so crystal clear that all metaphor is unnecessary, but I also don't think a reader should need to be a mental contortionist to get a writer's meaning. I understand Senna's comment about the temporal words, but some--terracotta and turban, for example, are temporal indirectly; their primary meanings are not about time, necessarily. This--in the absence of a guiding reference--muddies the poem for me.
Second--I am confused by the use of present tense of the verb--particularly with active verbs. Forgive my ignorance, but while I know Vesuvius is an active volcano, I don't know whether there has been (e.g., in modern history) damage from volcanic activity to the excavated city. Has there? If not, why do "slopes spin" and "rocks rain"? Should these be past tense? That would have given me another contextual clue.
And finally, this poem seems purely descriptive to me--more so than your other post, even. I don't have a real problem with that other than to say that (though I've erred on the side of pedantic in my own poetry) while description that leads nowhere can be interesting, closure or at least conclusions are good, too. Just some food for thought.
A.
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