SF/F idea: Courtship through Rape

[Shendude]

This is an idea for a story that would probably work best as sci-fi/fantasy:

We have a culture that is matriarchal, warlike, and firmly believes in eugenics. In this culture, naturally, women call the shots in terms of relationships. However, courtships tend to be begun by the men.

See, women are only interested in strong and/or smart men who will sire strong and/or smart children. Therefore, they will not be interested in any man who has not demonstrated his strength and/or intelligence, bu taking her, either by force or trickery.

I think this idea has a lot of possibility. Thoughts?

 

[bisexplicit]

I can see it working. "Marriage by capture" wasn't uncommon back a few thousand years ago.

 

[Anne Waters]

Piers Anthony did a culture like that in one of the Bio of a Space Tyrant books

 

[3113]

I know you're just trying to create a reason for a noncon story. But as a sci-fi writer, I gotta say this idea bothers me because (1) It's not Sci-fi. Not unless you're talking about society having broken down and no technology remaining. In which case, why not just do it as fantasy? Or just history. Rape of the Sabine women, for example. And yes, even back then the idea was that if you were smart and clever enough to capture and rape the women then you were a worthy son-in-law. So trying to put a spin on the idea of "women want clever men" doesn't turn it into sci-fi. It just knocks it back to ancient Greece or just about any other capture culture.

Including one in China, I believe, where it's still standard practice.

For me, science fiction should involved something that relies on a technological or scientific development.

(2) Also, it's not logical and though it may be nit-picky for erotica...I kinda like my sci-fi logical.

Logically, men who capture and rape women don't have to be smart at all. Date rape drugs are easy to put in any drink, even that of a warrior woman. Assuming these women have no way of testing DNA and so work eugenics vis science, then the best way for them to find the right men are to put said men through a series of tests both of brain and brawn. To assume that a man is smart and strong just because he can capture and rape a woman is, frankly, stupid. If I REALLY believed in Eugenics, I wouldn't rely on so faulty a test. Like I said, one date rape drug in the water supply and you can be raped by any man, no matter how dumb and weak. For that matter, if a strong, clever man DOES capture you how do you know he won't hand you over to his stupid friend for impregnanation? Why risk impregnation from a bad specimen? Create real tests that prove the man strong and smart, with sex (and a potential son!) as the prize at the end.

 

[RisiaSkye]

I know you're just trying to create a reason for a noncon story. But as a sci-fi writer, I gotta say this idea bothers me because (1) It's not Sci-fi. Not unless you're talking about society having broken down and no technology remaining. In which case, why not just do it as fantasy? Or just history. Rape of the Sabine women, for example. And yes, even back then the idea was that if you were smart and clever enough to capture and rape the women then you were a worthy son-in-law. So trying to put a spin on the idea of "women want clever men" doesn't turn it into sci-fi. It just knocks it back to ancient Greece or just about any other capture culture.

Including one in China, I believe, where it's still standard practice.

I totally agree with this point, and would add that any society in which marriage and sexual relations are defined by Male/female rape is, unavoidably, under a patriarchal system of power.

Otherwise, why would the "proof" of male worth be a demonstration of aggression? And why would it result in the sexual domination of women, with an eye toward offspring--thus making the "best" rapists into the steerers of the species (otherwise known as patriarchs)?

That is the very literal definition of patriarchal rule.
Inverting the naming of it changes nothing about its essential nature.

So, I guess, I'm really arguing that this isn't so much a new idea as it is an attempt to use feminism ironically which fails to hold together logically.

(2) Also, it's not logical and though it may be nit-picky for erotica...I kinda like my sci-fi logical.

Logically, men who capture and rape women don't have to be smart at all. Date rape drugs are easy to put in any drink, even that of a warrior woman. Assuming these women have no way of testing DNA and so work eugenics vis science, then the best way for them to find the right men are to put said men through a series of tests both of brain and brawn. To assume that a man is smart and strong just because he can capture and rape a woman is, frankly, stupid. If I REALLY believed in Eugenics, I wouldn't rely on so faulty a test. Like I said, one date rape drug in the water supply and you can be raped by any man, no matter how dumb and weak. For that matter, if a strong, clever man DOES capture you how do you know he won't hand you over to his stupid friend for impregnanation? Why risk impregnation from a bad specimen? Create real tests that prove the man strong and smart, with sex (and a potential son!) as the prize at the end.

Agreed. The ability to rape is not a demonstration of intelligence, nor even of strength. It is a demonstration of the ability to rape, an act requiring little other than selfishness and lack of conscience combined with being present for another person's moment of vulnerability.

And why an entire culture of women would ever embrace this very flawed model, I don't know, without other quite enormous changes to the world-as-it-exists.

Now, there's plenty of straight smut out there with an even thinner premise than that which you've proposed. So, if you're just looking for a quick frame for some sex scenes, then you're probably good to go. The one handed readership probably won't notice, much less mind. But if you're looking to do something a little more genre-bending (as it sounds like you might be), I'd suggest giving the framing narrative a thorough re-think.

IMHO.
And not that there's anything wrong with that.


RS

 

[sunandshadow]

Yep yep, if it was a high-tech matriarchial society they would never allow the men an opportunity to injure the women, that's just dumb. Instead they would make the men fight each other and when they wanted to use the winners as studs they would either use artificial insemination/gene splicing, or at least tie them up or drug them so they couldn't attack the women during the breeding.

On the other hand, if the species happened to be warlike hermaphrodites, or it was a society in which women had been wiped out and low-caste men were forced to carry the babies, I could definitely see a survival-wargame where the people tried to capture each other, and the winners sired the babies, some through rape, and the losers had to bear the children, which they wouldn't want to do since it's a mark of being a loser. In a sense, rape only occurs when the two people involved are social equals, because if one is a slave of the other they would be trained to obey and forced to be cooperative.

 

[Shendude]

Hmm, personally, I could see it as either SF or F, but I'll take your word for it.

Anyways, there seems to be a bit of misunderstanding here.

The idea isn't: guy rapes woman, woman belongs to man. Nor is it guy TRIES to rape woman, woman belongs to man.

It's guy manages to prevent a woman who is in excellent shape and heavily trained in combat from fighting him off, demonstrating that he is worthy of consideration as a potential husband. It's the opening gambit, not the whole battle, so to speak.

I suppose date-rape drugs might mess things up, but, on the other hand, in such a culture, a woman would always be looking out for such a thing, and thus it would require a fair amount of tircky to slip her one.

Does this explain things?

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

There is a situation in R/L where this actually works. Kidnap victims often become willing sex slaves/partners with their captors. But this requires a fairly long term arrangement (recall the Patty Hearst thing).

The only other situation that comes to mind is from Herodatus. I don't recall the exact scene, but he described a temple where young virgins would wait until a stranger came along and raped them. This was a requirment for marriage, as I remember.

That might be expanded to have the man or woman smitten and...

Jenny

 

[Shendude]

There is a situation in R/L where this actually works. Kidnap victims often become willing sex slaves/partners with their captors. But this requires a fairly long term arrangement (recall the Patty Hearst thing).

Stockholm Syndrome?

The only other situation that comes to mind is from Herodatus. I don't recall the exact scene, but he described a temple where young virgins would wait until a stranger came along and raped them. This was a requirment for marriage, as I remember.

That might be expanded to have the man or woman smitten and...

Jenny

That's...not exactly what we're talking about here. Actually, it's kinda the opposite.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Stockholm Syndrome?

Yes. I believe so. I always write from the real world for believabilty. When someone says, "That's bullshit" I have something to point too.

The one thing I see wrong with this is the time required. This doesn't usually happen on a one night encounter.

 

[Shendude]

Yes. I believe so. I always write from the real world for believabilty. When someone says, "That's bullshit" I have something to point too.

The one thing I see wrong with this is the time required. This doesn't usually happen on a one night encounter.

It's not an analagous(sp?) situation though.

That's psychological, this is cultural.

And this isn't the guy dominating the girl, it's the guy showing that the girl can't dominate him, and is thus worthy of consideration.

 

[RisiaSkye]

And this isn't the guy dominating the girl, it's the guy showing that the girl can't dominate him, and is thus worthy of consideration.

Problem: why would the women *want* a man that they couldn't dominate? That doesn't mean that their spirits have to be broken, though. But, if they're the cultural rulers (the women), wouldn't they want to retain that power? Wanting the smartest and strongest makes sense, but only if at their smartest and strongest the men were still manageably under the rule of women. Otherwise, anarchy results.

Problem 2: Still very hard to make this sci-fi. Where's the science? And, you'd need a frame to explain why a scientifically advanced world (more often than not, a bedrock of S/F) would believe in eugenics, which has been roundly proven to be junk science at best, and flagrant excuse making for racism at worst.

Further problem: I still fail to understand how a cultural model could be explained, under female rule, in which the tests of worth would be based around violence and attempted sexual exploitation.

On the flip side, though, at least your second explanation makes more sense--the idea of violent battle as an initiation rite into consideration as a mate? Or something like that. It still seems bizarre to me, but it's less overtly exploitive.

But, then again, I'm overthinking this. At the end of the day, it's not exactly brain surgery. I've certainly written smut with even thinner premises. So, have at it. Certainly far from my cup of tea, and I continue to find its frame irksome and illogical, but I'm sure you'll find an audience for it.

 

[3113]

It's guy manages to prevent a woman who is in excellent shape and heavily trained in combat from fighting him off, demonstrating that he is worthy of consideration as a potential husband. It's the opening gambit, not the whole battle, so to speak.

So, none of the smart, nerdy guys stand a chance. Just the brawny guys, smart or not, who are really fast and quick?

It's sounding a lot like Red Sonja. She was invented back in the 1930's by Robert E. Howard, a warrior woman who vowed to have sex only with the man who could beat her in single combat. What new twist is being put onto this old idea?

I suppose date-rape drugs might mess things up, but, on the other hand, in such a culture, a woman would always be looking out for such a thing, and thus it would require a fair amount of tircky to slip her one.

So, really, really tricky and smart homosexual guy does this, then hands drugged warrior woman over to his really stupid heterosexual friend to impregnate. Or, better yet, guy who wins, by hook or by crook, shares woman with his buddies?

See, it's still not making a lot of sense to me because if it's man against woman than all that's proven is that a certain man is better and brighter than a certain woman...not that he's the BEST and BRIGHTEST of all the men. If you want the best men as mates, why not have them fight among themselves? Then you can see what they do well and what they do poorly. You can even pick out desired traits, like a tendency toward cooperation and using the brain rather than just brawn.

Or are we still not getting this idea? How about this...why don't you tell us why it sounds so fun and exciting to you. Why you'd want to read it. And is it noncon or not?

 

[Shendude]

So, none of the smart, nerdy guys stand a chance. Just the brawny guys, smart or not, who are really fast and quick?

Depends. If you're able to set her up maybe.

It's sounding a lot like Red Sonja. She was invented back in the 1930's by Robert E. Howard, a warrior woman who vowed to have sex only with the man who could beat her in single combat. What new twist is being put onto this old idea?

Kinda.

So, really, really tricky and smart homosexual guy does this, then hands drugged warrior woman over to his really stupid heterosexual friend to impregnate. Or, better yet, guy who wins, by hook or by crook, shares woman with his buddies?

Option does not exist.

Again, the guy doesn't rape her 'til she's pregnant. The guy rapes her, and henceforth she is willing to consider him as a potential husband.

See, it's still not making a lot of sense to me because if it's man against woman than all that's proven is that a certain man is better and brighter than a certain woman...not that he's the BEST and BRIGHTEST of all the men. If you want the best men as mates, why not have them fight among themselves? Then you can see what they do well and what they do poorly. You can even pick out desired traits, like a tendency toward cooperation and using the brain rather than just brawn.

I'll have to think on this.

I have some embryonic ideas though.

Possibility One: if you have them figthing each other, it means that they learn to fight, rather than play it by ear. You don't WANT the men to be able to fight.

Possibility Two: Allowing rape gives the oppressed males an opportunity to vent some of their frustration at having no rights and being constantly humiliated.

Or are we still not getting this idea? How about this...why don't you tell us why it sounds so fun and exciting to you. Why you'd want to read it. And is it noncon or not?

Irony.

 

[3113]

Possibility One: if you have them figthing each other, it means that they learn to fight, rather than play it by ear. You don't WANT the men to be able to fight.

Um, so why would you ever have them fight the women at all? Why not have sex only with nerdy guys who don't like to fight?

Possibility Two: Allowing rape gives the oppressed males an opportunity to vent some of their frustration at having no rights and being constantly humiliated.

There's an old feminist sci-fi novel called "Gate to Women's Country"--in it, the very SMART matriarchy lets the men march around outside, wave banners, be macho...and fight each other. They tell them men that they are "protecting" the women.

And once a year, the men and women mingle freely in a carnival. The men feel all macho and all sexy and brawny. No anger toward the ladies.

Meanwhile, however, the women have this trick. Men get to choose if they want to be out with the fighting guys, or inside with the women as obedient servants. The trick is, unknown to the men, the women only have babies by the obedient servants. That way, with each generation, the children get less macho and less war-like. They know exactly which men are fighters--and not wanting that, they don't get impregnated by them and so don't give birth to fighting men.

My problem with your senario is that the women look really stupid. They humilate the men and so HAVE to have a way to let the men vent frustration. That's just stupid because it's going to lead to a revolt.

If what the women want are men who DON'T fight and are NOT humilated when submitting to women then there's no need at all for this weird eugenics game. All they have to do is kill any boy who shows signs of being an alpha male. Only omegas get to live and breed.

Ditto with girls. Only alpha females get to live. Submissive girls don'ts.

Problem solved.

 

[RisiaSkye]

The guy rapes her, and henceforth she is willing to consider him as a potential husband.

Ah, Luke & Laura. Twenty-five years later, stil the most famous General Hospital storyline to date. And it's not as though daytime soaps use original ideas. Suffice it to say, it's been done.

Irony.

I still maintain that the only "ironic" thing about this idea is that it misuses the word "matriarchal." In all other respects it's a very logical portrayal of a weakened but still functional patriarchy.

Which, I suppose, makes the founding posts ironic and the story mostly sexist.

Now, don't get me wrong. I'm not denouncing the sexism of sexual fantasy. Just an observation.

 

[Otto26]

Throwing out some thoughts:

-The storyline is doable, but the background is a little thin. You need to convince the reader that there are strong reasons for this sort of social custom to exist.

-Why make it sci-fi? Set it current day as a philosophical/cult group. It becomes an examination of the power-exchange culture in which the submissive really wields ultimate power (by choosing to participate). But then, of course, it's no longer really a rape.

-In the sci-fi scenario I can see a variation that makes a little more sense. If you have a scenario where women control the means of production (which I would just assume and not explain how it came to be), they live in small (5-15) communal groups and are strong believers in eugenics. So they have the custom of bringing in new men every few years (probaly an overlapping rotation). Inevitably some women in the group will not like some of the men brought in. But if custom (eugenic philosophy) dictates that they must breed with those men, then you have an interesting situation. If I'm writing the story, however, the rape is just the spark for exploring the small group dynamics in such a situation; it's condiment, not meat.

-If you're looking for justifiable rape (I can relate, rough sex is appealing but even the thought of actual rape turns my stomach) then there are other scenarios.
->Reporter looking into the Balkans sex-trade must rape a woman to preserve his cover and avoid being killed. He can salvage some shreds of his good guy credentials by saving the woman. This one can fit into all sorts of settings (I've used it myself) and there are some mass-market books out that use the basic idea.
->Getting darker you can have the scenario where a raider 'saves' a woman from gang-rape. There's a devil's dilemma for a woman: choose to be faithful to a single rapist or take your chances with a lot of them. "The Sword and the Rose" anyone?
->Under the influence/Jekyll-Hyde. Man has bouts in which he attacks and rapes woman. That's a rich vein that can be set in any time and can be turned into an interesting examination of abusive relationships.

Anyway, good luck with your story.

 

[FinnMacCool555]

I think is idea could be made to work provided that rape was not necessary for all marriages in the society. This could be a special rule for an elite, warrior class of women. Most men and women in the society could operate under semi-normal customs of sex and marriage, but, in order to ensure that the warriors' genetic material doesn't become weakened as generations pass, the rape rule is instituted so that all they're partners will be worthy fathers.

 

[Sean Renaud]

You know I was watching Demolition Man yesterday and it made me think of this idea.

How bout we have reached a point where women no longer need men. Period. Due to recent technological advances women are capable of breeding on their own by some means (in real life it involves stemcells being turned into sperm) Since women are mating with each other it results in only females being born, after all they don't have a Y Chromosome to give so it can't even happen.

The counter is a group of people who escaped, ideally this group includes both men and women since they breed on their own. But due to something (whatever you want here, low fertility rates, low numbers whatever) they occasionally raid the above world in search of more women.

That way if you ever wanted you could show the differences in their societies. Above world would be like a Dictatored regime, just everybody is happy. Very strict laws, very strict punishments all for the protection of the people living there.

The underground is pretty much just black market anarchy only loosely related to each other and that is mostly out of necesity to escape the all powerful Above Society.