Sex and the avant-garde

[CharleyH]

I had posted something earlier on the AH as a joking comment about what kinds of stories I'd like to see. The idea was off the top of my head: a loving wives story where the roles were reversed. Another example, perhaps a story about a straight female cross-dresser.

However, this got me thinking about erotic genre and whether or not authors have bent or played with formats stretching the boundries of either the generic structures themselves, or using gender play, going beyond the prescription of the typical male/female erotic stereotypes to offer something completely alternative.

I am well aware that if such experimentation exists, it is not mainstream, and I am assuming would probably (if posted on Literotica) get a lot of 1 votes simply for ripping the reader from the comfort of their rigidly slotted characters/ storylines.

Do you think I am wrong? Or do you think that people would be receptive to something different?

Would you consider something like this an erotic story, or do you feel it would be a non-erotic literary endeavor because it falls outside the box of 'accepted' erotic characters and storylines?

Has anyone here ever experimented with genre or stereotype, or thought about doing so?

 

[Just-Legal]

*muses*

I was toying with the idea of writing a roleplay incest fic, where the two aren't actually related, but the idea of doing something taboo is such a turn-on, they act it out...

 

[CharleyH]

*muses*

I was toying with the idea of writing a roleplay incest fic, where the two aren't actually related, but the idea of doing something taboo is such a turn-on, they act it out...

Thanks JL,

How do you see this as departing from the incest genre? And in your view, do you think that it would upset the readers? Do you think the readers would be irritated that it isn't an actual incest story?

Do you care?

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I'm still thinking on this one.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

I am well aware that if such experimentation exists, it is not mainstream, and I am assuming would probably (if posted on Literotica) get a lot of 1 votes simply for ripping the reader from the comfort of their rigidly slotted characters/ storylines.

Do you think I am wrong? Or do you think that people would be receptive to something different?

Would you consider something like this an erotic story, or do you feel it would be a non-erotic literary endeavor because it falls outside the box of 'accepted' erotic characters and storylines?

Has anyone here ever experimented with genre or stereotype, or thought about doing so?

I havent done so, but I think there are many possibilities if the writer isn't concerned about scores.

It is an interesting thought though. I may have to do some more thinking on the subject since I give a shit less about scores.

 

[Sshafer]

avant-garde

I think it would work everybody is always looking for a twist and that would be a real twist.

 

[cloudy]

I had posted something earlier on the AH as a joking comment about what kinds of stories I'd like to see. The idea was off the top of my head: a loving wives story where the roles were reversed. Another example, perhaps a story about a straight female cross-dresser.

However, this got me thinking about erotic genre and whether or not authors have bent or played with formats stretching the boundries of either the generic structures themselves, or using gender play, going beyond the prescription of the typical male/female erotic stereotypes to offer something completely alternative.

I am well aware that if such experimentation exists, it is not mainstream, and I am assuming would probably (if posted on Literotica) get a lot of 1 votes simply for ripping the reader from the comfort of their rigidly slotted characters/ storylines.

Do you think I am wrong? Or do you think that people would be receptive to something different?

Would you consider something like this an erotic story, or do you feel it would be a non-erotic literary endeavor because it falls outside the box of 'accepted' erotic characters and storylines?

Has anyone here ever experimented with genre or stereotype, or thought about doing so?

I'm sort of doing something like this with my Atlantis series. It almost fits into the sci/fi category (don't want to give away too much), but each story, by itself, will probably end up in different categories.

For example, the first one is in Anal, the second (which I'm working on now), will be in the Lesbian category. For someone to read the whole story, once it's finished, they'll probably have to read categories they haven't before because they will not be stand-alone chapters.

My scores will probably suck, but this is one of those ideas that torments you until you write it, so I obey the muse.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I had posted something earlier on the AH as a joking comment about what kinds of stories I'd like to see. The idea was off the top of my head: a loving wives story where the roles were reversed. Another example, perhaps a story about a straight female cross-dresser.

However, this got me thinking about erotic genre and whether or not authors have bent or played with formats stretching the boundries of either the generic structures themselves, or using gender play, going beyond the prescription of the typical male/female erotic stereotypes to offer something completely alternative.

I am well aware that if such experimentation exists, it is not mainstream, and I am assuming would probably (if posted on Literotica) get a lot of 1 votes simply for ripping the reader from the comfort of their rigidly slotted characters/ storylines.

Do you think I am wrong? Or do you think that people would be receptive to something different?

Would you consider something like this an erotic story, or do you feel it would be a non-erotic literary endeavor because it falls outside the box of 'accepted' erotic characters and storylines?

Has anyone here ever experimented with genre or stereotype, or thought about doing so?

I think you can experiment easily. I don't even think it neccessarily will affect your score. With a good story line, strong characters and a fgood plot you can probably push the boundaries on the erotic aspects.

the story is in the talent of the one telling it. If you have the talent and the will, you can impose your vision upon the reader and not suffer for taking them in unexpected direstions.

-Colly

 

[cloudy]

Re: Re: Sex and the avant-garde

I think you can experiment easily. I don't even think it neccessarily will affect your score. With a good story line, strong characters and a fgood plot you can probably push the boundaries on the erotic aspects.

the story is in the talent of the one telling it. If you have the talent and the will, you can impose your vision upon the reader and not suffer for taking them in unexpected direstions.

-Colly

I dunno....I'm still scared of the Loving Wives category.....I MIGHT HEAR FROM ANONYMOUS WHO TYPES ALL HIS PC'S IN CAPS!

 

[Guest]

Re: Re: Re: Sex and the avant-garde

I dunno....I'm still scared of the Loving Wives category.....I MIGHT HEAR FROM ANONYMOUS WHO TYPES ALL HIS PC'S IN CAPS!

be not frightened oh ye who dances with lightening.. for ye shall smote that bastage... verily.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Re: Re: Sex and the avant-garde

I'm sort of doing something like this with my Atlantis series. It almost fits into the sci/fi category (don't want to give away too much), but each story, by itself, will probably end up in different categories.

For example, the first one is in Anal, the second (which I'm working on now), will be in the Lesbian category. For someone to read the whole story, once it's finished, they'll probably have to read categories they haven't before because they will not be stand-alone chapters.

My scores will probably suck, but this is one of those ideas that torments you until you write it, so I obey the muse.

Hey, it gives people a chance to view catagories they might not look at otherwise.

Carrot on a stick, baby! Good move.

 

[CharleyH]

Thanks all, I will revisit tomorrow, when I can think during my first hit of freebased caffeine

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I have carried F/F into both fantasy & sci fi with some success. If that counts

-Colly

 

[cantdog]

I get some doctrinaire responses. People get upset about the silliest things. But if you don't care about scores, it ain't an issue.

I think the categories are screwed anyway.

Everybody's categories are different for everything. That's why you'll be surprised which section of a bookstore a book is in. That's why the best look-it-up systems use the alphabet or something everyone can agree on.

If a husband steps out on a wife, does it go in "Loving Wives?"

If it does, does that make it a radical departure or a push of the envelope?

Of course not. The presence or absence of a line between categories means jack. Categories are artificial. There really isn't anything radical about a platypus except that somebody's categories make it appear weird. It's an animal like any other, but the category system for animals merely happens to describe it poorly.

Are you writing a platypus or a really avant-garde story?

cantdog

 

[ABSTRUSE]

However, this got me thinking about erotic genre and whether or not authors have bent or played with formats stretching the boundries of either the generic structures themselves, or using gender play, going beyond the prescription of the typical male/female erotic stereotypes to offer something completely alternative.

I was curious as to whether or not there are any hermaphrodite stories? Not transexual/vestite, but real, born that way hermaphrodites.

 

[cantdog]

I know one, in process, due to go in Humor.

Real hermaphrodites are outside most people's experience, but they were ordinarily raised one gender or the other, according to the parent's decision shortly after their birth. I met one, but never knew her intimately enough, if you follow me, to know how she had sex. She was large, bulky, bearlike. She said as far as she had been able to find out, all hermaphrodites were "built like me," meaning, I think, bulky and bearlike.

I didn't press; she was nice enough to confide in me, but we didn't spend very long discussing her gender difficulties. One wants to be attentive but polite.

In the humor story, though, I think perhaps some liberties may be taken with the facts. It should be written soonish.

 

[Guest]

I don't think of this as avant-garde, but it fits something of what you mention, Ch. The second half of my third "Elevator Girl" story has gender-role-play on more than one level. You'll have to read it to judge for yourself. Plus built-in to the narrative is the idea of the east as 'other', and even the aesthetics of sex-work in that particular environs.

Perdita

 

[Edward Teach]

Here's something a bit different plus it's by Coolville which is always a treat.

Dirty Old Man And A Ladyboy
by Coolville

http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=58897

Ed

 

[cheerful_deviant]

My first two stories, (ok, ok, my ONLY two stories) were mind control and also lesbian.

I don't know how avant-garde this really is but from what I've seen it's fairly uncommon on Lit. Most of the M/C catagory is filled with 'guy controls bichy girl at mall' or 'guy controls stuck-up female boss' type of stories. There are many that have some lesbian in them but few exclusively lesbian. Both have been fairly well recieved.

 

[CharleyH]

CantD: you raise some interesting points. Sure, if I really wanted to go the way of the 'avant-garde', I'd try new formats, play with style, setting, language and as much as Stan Brackage is (sarcastically) an accessible filmmaker, so too could such a story be. But the avant- garde does not always reflect a such "radical' departure from the norm.

We live in a world where all is categorized because we like familiarity, we like to be able to find something. If I wrote a story for loving wives where I reversed the roles of male/female, I wouldn't find this concept too extraordinary in the greater context of sex, however, it would from the perspective of those reading the loving wives category, be a radical departure from what they are used to.

If you stop sex abruptly at the height of an orgasm, then to a certain extent, it strays from the accepted format of erotica. Not particularly avant-garde because it happens in life all the time, but I'm pretty sure it snaps a reader out of their complacancy, and in doing so, it departs from the structure and purpose of porn/erotica. Can it be called avant-garde in the context of erotica? (possibly, but perhaps not in bdsm).

In order to be avant-garde, it must depart from some category, some structure, otherwise it wouldn't be that radical. Example: any period of art feeds off the previous period of art and goes in a new direction in order to create something new. Abstract art, pop art, dadaism, surrealism didn't just happen ex nihilo, each had to break some form of convention, step beyond the category in order to create a new one.

In this sense, one could play with role reversal in a particular category and it could move toward the avant-garde for the simple reason that it is new in that category. Maybe not?

Colly: Yes, it's easy to experiment, dabble with different story lines, different character types, and anything can be done if done well, but if, as a writer, you step beyond the stereotypical bounds of your lesbian stories, twist them in a new direction, departing enough from what your readers come to expect in that category because you do something that tries to redefine the genre in a new way, will it to the matter to the reader who expects certain things to be included in this category, how well you write it?

P., and CD, I will have to read and get back simply because I can't comment on something I am not familiar with yet, and Edward, I will follow the link.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly: Yes, it's easy to experiment, dabble with different story lines, different character types, and anything can be done if done well, but if, as a writer, you step beyond the stereotypical bounds of your lesbian stories, twist them in a new direction, departing enough from what your readers come to expect in that category because you do something that tries to redefine the genre in a new way, will it to the matter to the reader who expects certain things to be included in this category, how well you write it?

I don't have a definitive answer for you, but I have experimented with several things and thus far my responses have been positive. I departed from my normal happy endings and expected to see far lower scores, but the story actually did very well. I tried N/C, BDSM, Sci-fi, Fantasy, even incest and got pretty much favorable reviews.

Granted that none of these stroies are radical departures, but they do indicate that people who enjoy my writing style are open to me branching out.

It would seem to me that an author who was comfortable enough with themselves and their skills to do something radical would probably get mixed feedback. It also seems to me, that if said author could apply their normal skill & talent to the work, they would not suffer trribly in the voting and scores.

The question I have is exactly where you could go to be ground breaking. Almost all of stories flaunt traditional gender values, as I usually have a pretty butch character. Yet, the relationships tend to be very traditional in that I am not breaking ground and it could even be argued my stories are more traditional than much in the category as my characters usually end up in a monogamous relationship with a "masculine" partner and a "feminine" partner.

I suppose the final judgement on the question is a mixed bag that is part the writer's skill, part how radical the departure is and part how well that writer can cope in the new mode with their already extant experience and talent.

-Colly

 

[CharleyH]

The question I have is exactly where you could go to be ground breaking.

This is also a question I have been pondering. It is one thing to be ground breaking in form, and another to do so in respect to gender issues, or content. Certain categories I think, are easier then others. Lesbian and gay categories I find a bit problematic for the simple reason that the movements themselves, in art/politics/pop.culture etc. have always been about pushing the margins of the mainstream.

Sure, 'Ellen' was ground breaking for television in, was it 1998. (as one of many examples) but when it comes to the lesbian erotic lit. category is there really anything that hasn't been done? Is there really anything, gender wise that could be done? Content wise, there must be. Surely, nothing could be that stagnant?

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think that porn is by its nature very, very conservative, possibly even the most conservative and tradition-bound form of fiction there is. That’s probably more true for men than for women, but I think most porn readers usually come to a story already knowing what they want to read about, and I don’t think they take kindly to experimentation and having their expectations played with.

I guess you could also look around and see how successful avant-garde or experimental graphic porn is on the internet, and I think you’d have to conclude that it’s not very. You see some examples of collage and high-art phtotography, but for the most part people like their porn pics done in the same way they like their stories: very straight-forward, no tricks, no pretensions, no “art”.

I make a distinction between pornography, which is intended only to sexually arouse the reader, and erotica, which is art dealing with sexuality. You can experiment all you want in erotica, but I very much doubt that it’ll do very well on Lit. I know my own stories tend to do worse the farther I get from the basic porn formula, and so I tend to keep my experimentation within the readers’ frame of expectation.

---dr.M..

 

[oggbashan]

I try to experiment.

My earlier stories (still posted) are very formulaic with a specific fetish because that is what my first readers (on Yahoo Groups/Clubs) wanted. I still lapse into that formula if I'm not careful.

I have tried to push the envelope on some of the categories. Sometimes I did it unintentionally - for example writing a 'Loving Wives' story about a loving wife. Heresy!

When Erotic Horror was a new category I wrote 2 very different stories, 'Donna' and 'White Scut'. 'Donna' is almost a 'success d'estime' because despite its low rating some readers are fascinated by it. It needs revision but I don't feel in the mood to reconsider that story. 'White Scut' was and is an oddity.

Since then my Erotic Horror has been more mainstream - sexy ghosts.

My latest experiment is the Goddess Brigit who has a social conscience. So far her 3 stories in Sci-Fi/Fantasy are doing well. My pending stories are again experimental and one is really 'Humour/Satire' although I have suggested it should be 'Toys etc.'

I tried Incest for the Nude Day contest more as a challenge to myself than a serious attempt at an incest story. The votes and views were astounding but the rating showed that it didn't ring the right bell for incest aficionados. I might try again.

Og

 

[CharleyH]

I think that porn is by its nature very, very conservative, possibly even the most conservative and tradition-bound form of fiction there is. That’s probably more true for men than for women, but I think most porn readers usually come to a story already knowing what they want to read about, and I don’t think they take kindly to experimentation and having their expectations played with.

I guess you could also look around and see how successful avant-garde or experimental graphic porn is on the internet, and I think you’d have to conclude that it’s not very. You see some examples of collage and high-art phtotography, but for the most part people like their porn pics done in the same way they like their stories: very straight-forward, no tricks, no pretensions, no “art”.

I make a distinction between pornography, which is intended only to sexually arouse the reader, and erotica, which is art dealing with sexuality. You can experiment all you want in erotica, but I very much doubt that it’ll do very well on Lit. I know my own stories tend to do worse the farther I get from the basic porn formula, and so I tend to keep my experimentation within the readers’ frame of expectation.

---dr.M..

I do agree with you, so getting back to a thought in my original post: So, in breaking or playing with the conventions such a piece could not successfully survive in the context of porn/erotica, but would have to be done, even if the story consists of porn/erotica, as a non-erotic entry.

More a confirmation of what I am understanding, then a question.