Seriously?

[Kojak01]

I just stumbled over the following statement:

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out."
*) Quoted from Mark Forsyth, The Elements of Eloquence

How am I as a non-native supposed to ingrain this to make sure I don't sound like a maniac?

Are there other such rules I should know about?

(And then they have the balls to go around and say that German is difficult to learn... )

 

[Jada59]

I just stumbled over the following statement:

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out."
*) Quoted from Mark Forsyth, The Elements of Eloquence

How am I as a non-native supposed to ingrain this to make sure I don't sound like a maniac?

Are there other such rules I should know about?

(And then they have the balls to go around and say that German is difficult to learn... )

Sheesh. That is one I haven't heard before. I know that I don't speak or write like that.

 

[Gentleman_G]

Perhaps that's why there are so many maniacs around?

 

[ElectricBlue]

Most native English speakers would probably not "know" the rule (I certainly don't), but would sense that a sentence didn't read or sound right, and apply it without knowing. It sure ain't taught in schools.

Others like it? Dozens, hundreds, probably. Learned with the language, but rarely taught - unless one is a professional editor.

 

[Handley_Page]

I just stumbled over the following statement:

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out."
*) Quoted from Mark Forsyth, The Elements of Eloquence

How am I as a non-native supposed to ingrain this to make sure I don't sound like a maniac?

Are there other such rules I should know about?

(And then they have the balls to go around and say that German is difficult to learn... )

Does every German speak what I believe is "hochdeutch" (High German ?)
Somehow, I doubt it.
Does every Englishman speak in what is known as "received pronunciation" ?
I doubt that.
I'm also sure that all languages have an "ideal" mode which a great many do not use, but may well understand.

I suggest that the author is is suggesting the best for for an eloquent speaker, not the sort of language swapped over a glass or two of Dortmunder in the bar.

And, having been there and tried it, German is NOT an easy language to learn.

 

[Haulover]

...I know that I don't speak or write like that.

But I bet you actually do.

I.e. if we have more than one adjective, anyone with a solid grasp of the language will (almost) always present them in that sequence.

We do it unconsciously.

 

[JasonClearwater]

I just stumbled over the following statement:

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out."
*) Quoted from Mark Forsyth, The Elements of Eloquence

How am I as a non-native supposed to ingrain this to make sure I don't sound like a maniac?

Are there other such rules I should know about?

(And then they have the balls to go around and say that German is difficult to learn... )

Let me see... 'This fantastic, fourteen inch, brand new, bronze-finished, saw-toothed, stainless steel stabbing-machete from the South of France...' doesn't sound maniacal at all, even though I've carelessly swapped the 'origin' with the 'material' in the adjective order! HAHAHAHAHA! THIS RULE IS RIDICULOUS, AND IN NO WAY POINTS TO THE SANITY OF THE WRITER!

*heavy breathing*

- A native RP English speaker

 

[Kojak01]

But I bet you actually do.

I.e. if we have more than one adjective, anyone with a solid grasp of the language will (almost) always present them in that sequence.

We do it unconsciously.

A) Her big round blue eyes sparkled with joy.
B) Her big blue round eyes sparkled with joy.
C) Her round big blue eyes sparkled with joy.
D) Her round blue big eyes sparkled with joy.
E) Her blue big round eyes sparkled with joy.
F) Her blue round big eyes sparkled with joy.

To me, there is no difference between these sentences. It could be that D and F sound a bit clumsy but maybe I just think that because I know they should...

 

[Hypoxia]

But I bet you actually do.

I.e. if we have more than one adjective, anyone with a solid grasp of the language will (almost) always present them in that sequence.

We do it unconsciously.

We absorb it via long-term exposure to the language, as native speakers of any language will absorb its tricks and subconscious conventions. We learn to say "My nice big fat Greek wedding" and not "My Greek fat big nice wedding" -- probably by being laughed at when we fuck the construction.

 

[JasonClearwater]

A) Her big round blue eyes sparkled with joy.
B) Her big blue round eyes sparkled with joy.
C) Her round big blue eyes sparkled with joy.
D) Her round blue big eyes sparkled with joy.
E) Her blue big round eyes sparkled with joy.
F) Her blue round big eyes sparkled with joy.

To me, there is no difference between these sentences. It could be that D and F sound a bit clumsy but maybe I just think that because I know they should...

To me, only A doesn't sound horrible.

 

[Kojak01]

Let me see... 'This fantastic, fourteen inch, brand new, bronze-finished, saw-toothed, stainless steel stabbing-machete from the South of France...' doesn't sound maniacal at all, even though I've carelessly swapped the 'origin' with the 'material' in the adjective order! HAHAHAHAHA! THIS RULE IS RIDICULOUS, AND IN NO WAY POINTS TO THE SANITY OF THE WRITER!

*heavy breathing*

- A native RP English speaker

But you didn't swap the order. You took the origin out of the sequence... You couldn't even make it wrong on purpose

This fantastic, fourteen inch, brand new, bronze-finished, saw-toothed, stainless steel, southern French stabbing-machete

 

[SamScribble]

I 'sort of' speak four languages. But English is the only one that I speak well enough to break all the rules. So I do. Fuck off, Mark Forsythe.

 

[Kojak01]

We absorb it via long-term exposure to the language, as native speakers of any language will absorb its tricks and subconscious conventions. We learn to say "My nice big fat Greek wedding" and not "My Greek fat big nice wedding" -- probably by being laughed at when we fuck the construction.

So all I can do is hope that my editors find them when I mix them up.

 

[JasonClearwater]

But you didn't swap the order. You took the origin out of the sequence... You couldn't even make it wrong on purpose

This fantastic, fourteen inch, brand new, bronze-finished, saw-toothed, stainless steel, southern French stabbing-machete

Oh. Well. Fuck.

 

[Jada59]

But I bet you actually do.

I.e. if we have more than one adjective, anyone with a solid grasp of the language will (almost) always present them in that sequence.

We do it unconsciously.

Let me try a few sentences to see.

The ice cubes clinked together as I lifted the bright pink oversized bottle to my parched, waiting lips.

I perused the jewelry in the case but the only thing that appealed was the rose gold ring with the two marquise cut sapphires and the subtle pink pearl.

Her hand shook and the tarnished silver spoon that appeared to be antique escaped her grasp and went clattering onto the bare floor.

I tripped over the edge of the throw rug, red wine splashed from my glass, and the stain splayed out and blended into the Persian pattern of burgundy and beige.

The dog's ears perked up as he heard the cheerful tune from the speaker of the ice cream truck for he knew he would soon get a treat.

Now mind you these are just random sentences made up on the fly. But... Not only do they not contain all of those parameters, they are also not necessarily in that order.

 

[Jada59]

Oh. Well. Fuck.

I think that needed a beverage alert! Hehehe!

 

[Kojak01]

The ice cubes clinked together as I lifted the bright pink oversized bottle to my parched, waiting lips.

opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun
'Bright pink' is the colour, 'oversized' is either an opinion or the shape. So to native speakers this should sound weird. As I said before, it doesn't to me...

I perused the jewelry in the case but the only thing that appealed was the rose gold ring with the two marquise cut sapphires and the subtle pink pearl.

There is no list of adjectives in there as far as I can tell. 'Rose gold' is the colour of the ring. 'Marquise-cut' is the shape of the sapphires and 'pink' is the colour of the pearl.

Her hand shook and the tarnished silver spoon that appeared to be antique escaped her grasp and went clattering onto the bare floor.

Again, no list of adjectives.
"Her hand shook and the antique-appearing, tarnished silver spoon escaped her grasp..."
or rather
"Her hand shook and the tarnished silver, antique-appearing spoon escaped her grasp..."

According to Forsyth's rule/list it would have to age-colour and that means "antique-appearing, tarnished silver spoon" and to me that sounds better than the other way round...

EDIT: I just realised that 'tarnished' is the colour and 'silver' is the material. Not even I would write a silver tarnished spoon. Would you?

I tripped over the edge of the throw rug, red wine splashed from my glass, and the stain splayed out and blended into the Persian pattern of burgundy and beige.

There is no list of adjectives in there as far as I can tell.

The dog's ears perked up as he heard the cheerful tune from the speaker of the ice cream truck for he knew he would soon get a treat.

There is no list of adjectives in there as far as I can tell.

The only example where Forsyth's list is applicable is the first sentence and there you used a different order. But I'm not the expert to decide on this, I'm the one wondering

PS: Nobody said that a list of adjectives is good style!

 

[oggbashan]

'Absolutely'? No.

That order of adjectives sounds right in normal English. We learn it unconsciously as we learn to talk.

BUT - breaking that rule for deliberate effect can give an enhanced meaning and emphasis to a particular adjective.

 

[Bramblethorn]

I just stumbled over the following statement:

"Adjectives in English absolutely have to be in this order: opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun. So you can have a lovely little old rectangular green French silver whittling knife. But if you mess with that word order in the slightest you’ll sound like a maniac. It’s an odd thing that every English speaker uses that list, but almost none of us could write it out."
*) Quoted from Mark Forsyth, The Elements of Eloquence

Hmm, I thought we had another thread about this a year or two back, but I can't find it.

Sorry to say it's actually more complex than Forsyth's description!

Yes, adjective order does matter in English. Some example sentences:

"He drove an new big Ford."
"I wore a silk red dress."
"She attended a French old prestigious school".

All of those sound weird to me, and I suspect to most native speakers, because they violate the expectations about adverb order. If somebody used them in a story I would immediately suspect that the author was a non-native speaker, no matter how good their grammar was otherwise.

In all of those cases, Forsyth's rule gives the right order: "big new Ford" (size-age), "red silk dress" (colour-material), "prestigious old French school" (opinion-age-origin). But it's not always so. For instance, I might call somebody's terrier a "good little doggie" (opinion-size), but one of our classic fairy tales is about the Big Bad Wolf (size-opinion).

There's some debate about why "big bad wolf" works differently. One argument I've seen is that adjective order is influenced by which traits are considered most intrinsic to the thing being described, with the least inherent/most subjective often being placed first. A "good little dog" can become bad more easily than it can become big, so "good" comes first. But the Big Bad Wolf is a fairytale creature who's bad to the bone; the fact that he's big makes his badness more terrifying.

Another explanation for Big Bad Wolf is that we have a preference for certain sound orders. "Snicker-snack", "zig-zag", "click-clack", "pitter-patter", "knick-knacks", "this and that", "mix and match", "tit-for-tat", "tic-tac-toe" - when you have two similar words with "i" and "a" vowel sounds, we like to put the "i" first.

And sometimes the order doesn't matter very much.

Some more nuanced discussion about these issues:

http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=27890
https://theconversation.com/beware-...-put-your-adjectives-in-the-right-order-64982

How am I as a non-native supposed to ingrain this to make sure I don't sound like a maniac?

Are there other such rules I should know about?

Many of them. Problem is, the ones that we've absorbed by osmosis often aren't consciously known even to ourselves; we only notice when somebody breaks them.

(And then they have the balls to go around and say that German is difficult to learn... )[/QUOTE]

I will grant that English is a ridiculously complex language and I don't understand how anybody manages to learn it without lifelong immersion.

If it's any consolation, I'm currently trying to remember whether tables are male, female, or neither, and wondering why anybody thought "Um fünf vor halb drei" was a sensible way to say "two twenty-five".

But the ones that trip me up the most are the words that match English words but not their meaning: "will", "Gift", and so on...

A) Her big round blue eyes sparkled with joy.
B) Her big blue round eyes sparkled with joy.
C) Her round big blue eyes sparkled with joy.
D) Her round blue big eyes sparkled with joy.
E) Her blue big round eyes sparkled with joy.
F) Her blue round big eyes sparkled with joy.

To me, there is no difference between these sentences. It could be that D and F sound a bit clumsy but maybe I just think that because I know they should...

I'm with Jason on this. (A) is the only one that I would expect to hear in normal English use.

As Ogg notes, breaking the standard order tends to add emphasis. For example, when I read (B), it feels like you're placing special emphasis on "round"; e.g. you're describing a Caucasian woman in an Asian setting, and emphasising a difference in appearance.

 

[Bramblethorn]

opinion-size-age-shape-colour-origin-material-purpose Noun
'Bright pink' is the colour, 'oversized' is either an opinion or the shape. So to native speakers this should sound weird. As I said before, it doesn't to me...

Hmm, this is interesting. Trying a few variations on this in my head:

"Bright pink big bottle" - sounds very weird.
"Red oversized bottle" - also very weird.

But these:

"Bright pink oversized bottle"
"Neon blue oversized bottle"
"Bright pink gigantic bottle"

only feel slightly weird. I'd still be more likely to put the size adjective first, but it's not an obvious "non-native speaker" giveaway. I tested these out on my partner, and she had the same reaction to each of these; even though they're all colour-size, some work better than others.

I'm having trouble putting my finger on exactly why that is, but I suspect it's something to do with the length of those adjectives. With multiple syllables in each, it changes the rhythm of the sentence, and somehow that weakens my expectations about adjective order.

"Her hand shook and the antique-appearing, tarnished silver spoon escaped her grasp..."
or rather
"Her hand shook and the tarnished silver, antique-appearing spoon escaped her grasp..."

According to Forsyth's rule/list it would have to age-colour and that means "antique-appearing, tarnished silver spoon" and to me that sounds better than the other way round...

EDIT: I just realised that 'tarnished' is the colour and 'silver' is the material. Not even I would write a silver tarnished spoon. Would you?

Definitely not. See, you're absorbing the rule already!

"Tarnished" can go in a couple of places here. I could write "tarnished old silver spoon", in which case "tarnished" is applying to "spoon", or I could write "old tarnished silver spoon", in which case "tarnished" is actually modifying "silver".

 

[Gentleman_G]

Yes, adjective order does matter in English. Some example sentences:

"He drove an new big Ford."

It wouldn't do me any good to point out with the 'new big Ford', one would use 'a' rather than 'an', would it?

As for me, I'm honestly pretty clueless when it comes to language rules, so I'm not gonna be able to offer anything constructive in terms of rules. It's probably why I was horrendously bad at tests back in school. Especially German and French, but that's mostly because I didn't even manage to understand the foreign question most of the times.
I even failed the tests for my own language, Dutch. I mean, I can distinguish a noun from a verb, but don't ask me to analyze what's an indirect object. I have no talent for that. Grammar rules? Spelling rules? I must've learned them at some point, but I've never applied them consciously before or after I've learned them.

So why am I doing fine - even better than most others out there in both Dutch and English? I have no clue. I'm just freewheeling here, relying solely on my intuition and experience. If it doesn't sound right, or it doesn't seem right, it must be wrong and I rewrite it. I even turn off my spelling check because I feel it interferes with my writing. And even then my documents have less mistakes than anyone I know who has the spelling check turned on.

It kind of makes me feel privileged to be able to write properly without having to learn rules how to do so.

 

[Kojak01]

Interesting read and interesting links. Thanks for that. Both articles seem to say "Yes, that order is generally correct but..."

If it's any consolation, I'm currently trying to remember whether tables are male, female, or neither, and wondering why anybody thought "Um fünf vor halb drei" was a sensible way to say "two twenty-five".

It's even worse if you know that a table is male in German (der Tisch) but female in French (la table). And while I, of course, also say "five before half three" I've also wondered how this became a regular expression. But it's not worse than sixty-eleven or four-twenties-seventeen...

But the ones that trip me up the most are the words that match English words but not their meaning: "will", "Gift", and so on...

False friends. I'm still trying to forget how many points they cost me in my scholastic career.

As Ogg notes, breaking the standard order tends to add emphasis. For example, when I read (B), it feels like you're placing special emphasis on "round"; e.g. you're describing a Caucasian woman in an Asian setting, and emphasising a difference in appearance.

So I just have to say I did it on purpose

 

[Bramblethorn]

It wouldn't do me any good to point out with the 'new big Ford', one would use 'a' rather than 'an', would it?

Whoops, I originally had "old big Ford" and changed to "new" (so I could use "old" for the school example), but I forgot to change the article to match.

 

[Bramblethorn]

And while I, of course, also say "five before half three" I've also wondered how this became a regular expression. But it's not worse than sixty-eleven or four-twenties-seventeen...

...or "one hundred three-and-twenty"!

 

[JasonClearwater]

Off topic (and apologies to the OP for the minor detour), but I suspect the right people to answer the question are watching this thread - is there a dormant 'what's that word' thread I can revive, or should I start a new one? For when your thesaurus is failing you, and you're trying to figure out how to describe something, and failing.