Serious Question about the legality of something

[deliciously_naughty]

Ok Guys...serious real life situation.

My mom had her atm card stolen and the person who took it was able to withdraw almost a thousand dollars from her account. She reported it and the bank was able to get a pic of the person and give that to the police. The kid who took it is someone who hangs out with my mom's neighbor's son. My guess is that the kid is in his early teens. So my mom has filled out the paperwork etc and will press charges when the police arrest him (or press charges against his parent more accurately).

Here's the problem. At first my mom's bank said they would replace the money and prosecute the kid and his family. But then they changed their mind and said it would be mom's problem. Why? Because my mom had written the pin number down on the little paper envelope you're supposed to keep your atm card in. Now while I will agree this was a stupid move (and said as much to her) I don't think it's legal. Shouldn't the FDIC insurance cover this?

My mom has since had to borrow money from her credit cards and who knows how long it will take for something like this to come to court. I told her I thought she should sue the parents not only for the money, but for any interest that it should have earned as well as the interest she will now have to pay on her credit cards.

If anyone out there is a lawyer or a banker, please respond either in this thread or by PM..preferably by PM. In the meantime I advised my mom to speak to her lawyer about the legality of what the bank is doing.

 

[Needssome]

Sorry to say I can't help out with the legality side of it, I do know when I got my bank card one of the stipulations is that you NEVER keep your PIN in the same location as your card or else you wouldn't be covered. I think it's the same if it's an easily guessed number. I've heard of banks actually charging the person extra after an elderly woman had her purse stolen and it had both her card and PIN number in it. The local news did a story so she didn't have to pay the extra, but as far as I know it's policy that if you keep the card and the PIN in the same place, it's your fault.

 

[Siren]

 

[Willing and Unsure]

i'm no banker or lawyer, but i dont see how it should matter where her pin number was written down at. what if the card was stolen from her home and she had it written down somewhere else and they found the number? is she still responsible for them getting her pin number then? i dont think so. but ask an expert to be sure.

 

[Needssome]

As far as I know, you're culpable if you keep your PIN and your card in the same general place. If for example you have it written on a piece of paper under your bed, and your card in your wallet it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Texan]

The bank is right on this one. If the thief could enter the code on the first try, then the bank had no liability. The money was not stolen from the bank. It was stolen from your mom because the code was on the card sleeve.

I should have added that your mom can file a claim under her homeowner's insurance.

 

[Bigdog]

Not a lawyer or banker, but...

From the Electronic Funds Transfer Agreement my credit union sent me:

If you believe your card or PIN has been lost or stolen, and you tell us within 2 business days after you learn of the loss or theft, you will be liable for no more than $50 if someone used your card or PIN without your permission for ATM cash withdrawals. If you DO NOT tell us within 2 business days after you learn of the loss or theft of your card or PIN, and we can prove we could have stopped someone from using your card or PIN without your permission if you had told us, you could be liable for up to $500.

Don't know if this helps. You might try a search on Google for federal laws on ATM liability. Good luck.

 

[Texan]

Re: Not a lawyer or banker, but...

From the Electronic Funds Transfer Agreement my credit union sent me:

If you believe your card or PIN has been lost or stolen, and you tell us within 2 business days after you learn of the loss or theft, you will be liable for no more than $50 if someone used your card or PIN without your permission for ATM cash withdrawals. If you DO NOT tell us within 2 business days after you learn of the loss or theft of your card or PIN, and we can prove we could have stopped someone from using your card or PIN without your permission if you had told us, you could be liable for up to $500.

Don't know if this helps. You might try a search on Google for federal laws on ATM liability. Good luck.

hello Bigdog, I'm just making an observation here, but it says a couple of times "card OR pin". If you stop to think about it, the bank isn't going to loose money if someone steals a person's card OR pin. It's only when the thief has the card AND pin that it matters.

 

[Siren]

 

[Bigdog]

Re: Re: Not a lawyer or banker, but...

hello Bigdog, I'm just making an observation here, but it says a couple of times "card OR pin". If you stop to think about it, the bank isn't going to loose money if someone steals a person's card OR pin. It's only when the thief has the card AND pin that it matters.

True, but one without the other wouldn't result in liability for anybody in any amount. Thus no rules needed at all.

I do beleive the ATM laws were written with even the careless in mind. It was the only way the feds would let banks move into electronic banking.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

Sounds like it may depend on the bank. I don't use the same bank as my mom...but I definitely will pass all this onto her.

I do know that she informed them as soon as she discovered her card was missing. I don't know how long it had actually been gone for though. Now if it were me, I'd know within hours b/c I'm anal rententive like that...however, my pin is a number that's in my head and that I don't have written down, period. Like I said, my mom is sweet, but a little too trusting and absent minded. Sigh.

If she's liable for any amount, I think she can still sue the little brats parents though...something for me to keep reminding her of.

Good thing I don't live anywhere near my mom...I'm a bitch and I would be handling this very differently. For one I'd ask for the kids name from my neighbor (I think my mom wants to keep everything as quiet as possible) and secondly I'd have called a lawyer from the first moment the bank said anything about not reimbursing me. But again...that's just me and I have freely admitted to having less paitence and being a less nice and trusting person than my mom.

 

[kotori]

Just FYI: The FDIC only insures your deposits from troubles the bank has--if they are robbed or fail, and can't produce your funds on demand. It's not applicable in cases like this.

 

[Diablogrl]

wow...who'd have thought that a summer law clerk assignment might actually come in handy...

The bank is actually in the wrong here...the EFTA covers specific transactions and applies to debit transactions and POS locations (=fancy wording for ATM machines). Assuming your mom reported the theft within two days, she's only going to be liable for the first $50 stolen from her account REGARDLESS of whether her PIN number was on her card (I'll save my lecture on things not to do for another thread). If she waited past the two day period, there may be some issues as to what the bank owes her. Thus, the bank actually has the obligation to restore the funds to your mom's account.

If you want to research this on your own, do a google search for "Electronic Funds Transfer Act". After reviewing that, you may want to contact the bank's customer service and try to "negotiate" this one out before talking to an attorney. Don't let them blindside you or take advantage of you, and as long as you have your research with you, you'll be better able to support your position...oftentimes, the banks would like to avoid lawsuits as much as we would like to avoid paying legal fees. If that doesn't work out, contact an attorney in your area. Good places to look for attorneys are your local bar association, the internet, and legal referral services (which usually can be found rather easily in the phone book). Good luck!

 

[Bindii]

Bumping this thread for Sub23 so she can read Diablogrl's responce.

Adding in Australia if someone uses your atm card then they know your pin number so you are responsible not the bank. This happened to a friend of mine, she lost a couple of thousand dollars - a hard lesson to learn.

 

[Siren]

 

[binkley]

The WHY in the world are you asking Litty? You will only get bad, incomplete or misleading advice. See a lawyer. No, seriously.

 

[Siren]

 

[Marquis]

If you know who this fucker is, just round up a few friends and go get the money yourself! And leave him something to remember you by!!

Or you could go through the lawyers.

 

[Bigdog]

The WHY in the world are you asking Litty? You will only get bad, incomplete or misleading advice.

Where in the hell did you get that impression? I see plenty of help here (mine included) that is right on the money. There were a few tidbits that were off-base, but overall the question was asked and answered. Several hundred similar threads around here have had similar luck. Frankly, I get worse advise from people in RL than I do here.

Don't make the assumption that people who post on porn-site bulletin boards are simple or stupid. There is a stunning amount of intelligence, compassion and common sense lurking about this place.

 

[fgarvb1]

I have no ideal what the law says about cards and pin numbers.

I also have no ideal what my pin nimber is and never have.

instead of numbers i looked at the telephone and picked out the numbers to match a word i would always remember.

Not even my wife ( nor my ex-wifes in the last twenty plus years either) knows what it is.

 

[deliciously_naughty]

resolution!!!!

Ok...just b/c I told everyone I'd let them know what happenned...

My mom had to contact her lawyer, who confirmed the whole efta thing diablogirl was talking about...and who wrote a nasty letter to the bank threatening a lawsuit if they didn't comply.

The bank returned the money...hahahahaha

justice for the little guy

and next time, mom will not have her pin number written on her bank card slip (doh!)

 

[Diablogrl]

That's fantastic Delicious! I am so glad it all resolved itself so well!

 

[Siren]

 

[deliciously_naughty]

thanks again, diablogirl...you kick ass