Serious question about God

[Guest]

The Christian God - you know, that one.

I'm soul-searching, as I usually do Sunday mornings when skipping church. I send my children off to Sunday school, hubby is wonderful enough to take them, but I prefer to stay home these days.

I've finally decided in the past two years that there is a God. I know, I know, but I will concede that there must be something there, something to stir the pot on all the planets, so to speak.

I've also stopped blaming God for everything bad that has happened to my family. And lately, for everything bad that seems to be happening to good people in the world.

But I've also stopped thanking God for all the good things. Why should He get the credit if he doesn't take the blame?

I know this sounds quite simplistic, but I'm coming back from a far-away place spiritually, and I'm attempting to make sense of something which I suppose you really can't.

I heard Pat Robertson talking about how God answered his prayers, and how with all the furor in the aftermath of Katrina, John Roberts would now be quickly and easily appointed to the Supreme Court.

I'm not giving Robertson the benefit of any coherent thought or ability to understand true Biblical thought, but that comment made me think.

If everything is connected, the good and the bad, and if people have to die so others can live, what then is the true purpose of prayer?

It seems akin to a parent desperately waiting for a transplant for their child, praying for a donor, all the while knowing someone else's child will have to die in order for theirs to live.

Is that what prayer is? Really? Because otherwise, how does God decide to grant someone's prayer, and not grant another? Is that particular person more worthy?

Huge questions, of course, but I don't want to call my pastor right now. He's been inundating me with emails about getting my butt back to services. If I ask him, he'll tell me to come to one of the Sunday school adult classes and discuss.

I don't wanna.

So - there are deeply spiritual people here, I know, and I imagine many of you have a better understanding on some of these matters than myself.

So - I'm asking. Why pray?

 

[cloudy]

Deep questions, indeed.

I think that prayer, for some, is the acknowledgement that you've done all you can in a given situation, that the rest is completely out of your hands. In a way, prayer gives the soul some peace that it's "in god's hands now." Does that make any sense?

I think it's for peace of mind for the one praying.

 

[DrFreud]

Quoting Gibran's "The prophet":

Then a priestess said, "Speak to us of Prayer."

And he answered, saying:

You pray in your distress and in your need; would that you might pray also in the fullness of your joy and in your days of abundance.

For what is prayer but the expansion of yourself into the living ether?

And if it is for your comfort to pour your darkness into space, it is also for your delight to pour forth the dawning of your heart.

And if you cannot but weep when your soul summons you to prayer, she should spur you again and yet again, though weeping, until you shall come laughing.

When you pray you rise to meet in the air those who are praying at that very hour, and whom save in prayer you may not meet.

Therefore let your visit to that temple invisible be for naught but ecstasy and sweet communion.

For if you should enter the temple for no other purpose than asking you shall not receive.

And if you should enter into it to humble yourself you shall not be lifted:

Or even if you should enter into it to beg for the good of others you shall not be heard.

It is enough that you enter the temple invisible.

I cannot teach you how to pray in words.

God listens not to your words save when He Himself utters them through your lips.

And I cannot teach you the prayer of the seas and the forests and the mountains.

But you who are born of the mountains and the forests and the seas can find their prayer in your heart,

And if you but listen in the stillness of the night you shall hear them saying in silence,

"Our God, who art our winged self, it is thy will in us that willeth.

It is thy desire in us that desireth.

It is thy urge in us that would turn our nights, which are thine, into days which are thine also.

We cannot ask thee for aught, for thou knowest our needs before they are born in us:

Thou art our need; and in giving us more of thyself thou givest us all."

-----
Good luck with your quest Sarah.

 

[impressive]

I can't address your questions in terms of a diety -- because I don't believe. However, I read a book called Quantum Healing by Deepak Chopra that answered a lot of my questions re prayer. It might be of some assistance to you.

I am not a religious person, but I do consider myself deeply spiritual.

 

[Kassiana]

To commune with the Gods.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Good question. I don't have much of an answer.

I remember when I was young and a common question was, "Does God answer all prayers?"

The common (and less-than-satisfactory) answer was "He does, but sometimes the answer is 'No'".

So, God is an incurable wiseass? Well, there is the platypus, but...

Somewhere along the line, Christian prayer seems to have become a petition of sorts. We can light candles, offer Novenas, say rosaries, and have our sins forgiven with five Our Fathers and 10 Hail Marys. At least, that's the RCC I was brought up in. But if you examine the Lord's Prayer, it's something different. It starts with an exclamation of praise and devotion for "Our Father, who art in heaven", and a wish that earth become more like heaven. Apart from "daily bread", the things asked for in the prayer are mostly conceptual - forgiveness, courage to forgive others, and spiritual strength to resist temptation.

To me, that sounds a lot like meditation. Maybe that's what Jesus meant - prayer is about maintaining a spiritual center, not asking for intercession. And when prayer "works", it's because so many people have tried to find spiritual harmony in interpreting the world around them.

 

[Guest]

Thank you, everyone. Seems I have a great deal more reading and searching before I remotely approach an answer for me.

Right now, prayer seems to be more like busy work. Something for us to do since we can't really control the outcome, anyway.

Kind of like pregnant couples practicing their Lamaze breathing during childbirth delivery because it keeps them occupied and out of the doctor's way.

And that sounds insulting to those who pray and that isn't my intent, either.

Maybe I haven't come that far back yet.

 

[BlackShanglan]

One of the most profound statements I have seen on evil is actually in C. S. Lewis' children's series, The Chronicles of Narnia. I admire Lewis's nerve in dealing, in the final book - The Last Battle - with death and the end of life and faith. It's tough ground for a children's book, and he handles it well.

He presents a world, Narnia, in which the Christian God is figured in Aslan the lion, who comes to the Talking Beasts of the land as their Christ figure. Near the end of days in Narnia, an Ape finds the skin of a mute unintelligent lion, dresses a Talking Donkey up in it, and begins telling people that Aslan has returned and is giving orders to them through him. Not surprisingly, they are very self-serving orders, and soon he has enslaved and killed many of the innocent creatures of the land. Some resist him, including a group of Dwarves who, with some of the other characters, fight in the Last Battle against invading forces that the Ape has invited into Narnia to enslave its animals and enrich himself. But the Dwarves are terribly changed by their experience. They don't believe in the Ape and his false god, it is true - but when the real Aslan comes, they can't believe in him either. They've given up all hope in everything, even faith in their fellow Narnians, and as they chant "the Dwarves are for the Dwarves!" they end by shooting dead an entire herd of Talking Horses running to the aid of the other characters.

Lewis' point (I think) is that evil's worst power is much more than its mometary ability to inflict physical misery or suffering. Its most profound danger is its potential to convince us that good is impossible - whether a good and caring God, or the good in our fellow men. It's a powerful truth, I think, and one that is inevitably tested when we see the worst in humankind. It's a struggle to believe in good when evil has such power in this world. But God never offered power in this world, and that I think is where the truth of it lies.

I can't say what prayer does for other people, or how others view evil and good. I can only offer my own rather Gnostic view. This world is not the world we will live in. It is a passing shadow, and filled with struggle. There is much good in it, and much evil. In the end, however, what happens in it is less important than what it makes us. God has, in the infinite wisdom of the Divine, given man free will. That cannot exist without the choice of evil and the potential of disaster. This is painful to experience and can weigh heavily on our faith that there is goodness behind it. But this is not, but in scale, different to a child being let go to make its own mistakes as it matures. It hurts, of course, when one's loved one makes choices that bring pain, or when pure accident places him or her in the path of sorrow. But we choose (most of us) to let our children go to grow and mature, because we know that they cannot be complete without it.

I think of this world in much the same way. There is good and bad, and at times we will blunder into foolishness or be assaulted by nature or our fellow men in ways that seem cruel and unfair. But it is in confronting these elements that we become complete people. And hence my view of prayer. I pray to God in much the way that I speak to my parents, in good times or in bad. I thank them for all they've done to try to help me, and all of the good things that have come of it. I ask for aid when it can be given, while knowing that it will not always be in their power or in my interest for them to grant immediately a solution to the problem facing me. And at times I simply ask them to be with me, when there seems to be no solution. I ask them to let me know that they care, and to help me through those points when my pain is a bafflement to me, and I cannot see why I suffer. I remember, too, Lewis' words elsewhere, in his excellent book The Screwtape Letters. We wear ourselves thin, at times, and test our faith terribly in praying that God show us why he has done what he has, or in asking him to help us accept every possible outcome of a frightening and confusing situation. What we must pray for then, Lewis suggests, is not divine wisdom, nor the impossible ability to accept every one of a thousand imagined terrible outcomes at once. What we must pray for is to accept the uncertainty, and to accept not knowing. That I think the essence of faith.

It is faith in the world to come, I think, that makes sense of all of this - and so it may not make sense to you, or to anyone who does not believe in another world. But to me, it is sense, and reason. At times I feel I have a glimpse of purpose in what has happened; there are times of great suffering that I now look back upon with gratitude, as moments when God has gently returned me to the Divine Presence. There are others that continue to elude me. But I believe that at the end of my time on this earth - whether a gentle end or a terrible one - there will be an answer to all human suffering, an answer inexpressably beautiful and loving. Prayer is my way of asking that loving presence for the strength to hold on and wait for that answer.

Shanglan

 

[TheEarl]

Prayer to me is a petition to God. God won't give you what you want if you are being frivolous, if you are trying his patience, or if it affects the larger plan in a bad way. But God will answer your prayers if you are worthy and it is something that you very deeply need.

That's my take on it and one of the reasons crystal magick has fitted into my beliefs of late. They have properties endowed upon them by God and they will help you if used properly. But a spell isn't somehting which will happen out of the blue; it is a petition and one which will be refused if you do not want it enough.

The Earl

 

[Dar~]

God if my friend. I ring him up to talk about the good things and I ring him up for a shoulder during the bad. He is my release.

There are times when I just ring him up to say thank you for loving and leading me through difficult times. I find it's comforting to have a friend there for me to go to no matter what I've done. One who loves me and will be a constaant regardless of where I am or who I am.

Even if in the end, there is no God, (which I don't believe)I will have lived a more comforted life b/c I believed.

 

[AppleBiter]

Prayer, for me, is about strengthening a closeness with God. Sometimes, it feels as though everything is out of control and I have no power over the situation -- but it comforts me to know that He does. Even more so, it comforts me to know that, no matter what the situation, everythng is exactly as it was meant to be in that moment. That kind of peace is priceless. Some problems may be bigger than I am, but He is bigger than everything.

I believe He listens and I believe he cares. I also believe that He answers every prayer. It's just that sometimes His answers are either a loving "no" or "wait."

Those are my beliefs, for what it's worth. Hope it helps.

AB

 

[scheherazade_79]

My parents raised me as a Christian, but as with most things I discovered my own Weltanschauung, and don't go to Church, nor pray, nor get involved in any remotely religious activities.

One thing that stuck with me as a kid was a scene from The Poseidon Adventure, when a group of people, including a preacher are stuck inside an overturned ship. Just when things are looking their bleakest, one of the women starts yelling at the preacher to pray for God to save them. Instead, the preacher suggests that they should try and save themselves, because "God loves tryers".

As far as the bad things in this world are concerned, I think it's a lot more helpful to go out there and try and change them than sit in a church and just hope they get better.

I know prayer has its place for many people as a form of meditation and clearing one's mind. It doesn't really exist in my little world, though, because I'm usually too busy trying to take things on myself.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I heard Pat Robertson talking about how God answered his prayers, and how with all the furor in the aftermath of Katrina, John Roberts would now be quickly and easily appointed to the Supreme Court.

I'm not giving Robertson the benefit of any coherent thought or ability to understand true Biblical thought, but that comment made me think.

If everything is connected, the good and the bad, and if people have to die so others can live, what then is the true purpose of prayer?

Prayer gives people hope, fills them with hope. You gotta believe, though. It doesn't work if you don't believe there's a chance your prayer will be answered.

Pat's statement would appear to make prayer-answering a zero-sum game: for someone to win, someone has to lose. Is that what you believe about God?

Pat was on the Beltway Boys the other day and was telling people to invest in contracting firms and cement companies and companies that would be involved in the clean-up and rebuilding in the Gulf. As he quoted, "It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good." Meaning someone can almost always benefit from someone else's tragedy. He is seeing Katrina as a boon, as an answer to prayers, not because God is playing a zero-sum game, but because that's how Pat sees it. You don't have to see it that way at all.

 

[Liar]

I don't know where I stand on the whole God issue myself... But I am sure of one thing: There is no limited pool of good fortune, no cosmic karma balance. If you are blessed, it is not automatically at the expense of someone else being cursed. The occations when it appears so, like an accident making an organ donation possible, is just the web of random good and bad fortunes intersecting. Don't ever feel guilty for a good thing drifting your way.

I can only see one kind of god, one that either can't, or choose not to, intervein at all. So God should not take the blame for misfortune, and should not take the credit for fortune.

I remember watching the MTV Video awards a few weeks ago, and I think it was Missy Elliot who thanked God for giving her musical talent. It made me cringe all over. What a load of hubris bull. A statement like that implies that destiny, abilitites and opportunities are divine bestowings, and therefore, being dealt bad cards is the same, that losers in the fortune lottery deserve it.

So why pray?

I have, agnostic as I am, gone through the process of what I was taught it meant to pray two times in my life. It does two things for me.

First of all it clears my mind on what it really is that means shit. If I go through the effort to talk to God about something (in my case, a hypothetical God, but it amouts to the same), it better be the right thing to talk about.

Second of all...no, I don't believe that prayers are answered. Like I said, no divine intervention to spare this child and smite the other. So a prayer doesn't have that direct effect.

But hey, leaning on the shoulder of a friend at the end of a crappy day solves no practical problems either. But it feels nice. Even if it doesn't solve our problems, it helps to put them in words and let somebody hear them. And now and then, the problems are so personal, deep rooted and complicated that nobody but yourself can possibly understand what it feels like.

Except maybe God. He's God, after all, and there's a possibility that he listens. It's a one way conversation and catharsis, but it can help getting things off your chest. A prayer is just a formulation of a need. If you pray for strength and willpower, just admitting that you need it is the first step to generating it yourself.

 

[Guest]

Prayer gives people hope, fills them with hope. You gotta believe, though. It doesn't work if you don't believe there's a chance your prayer will be answered.

Pat's statement would appear to make prayer-answering a zero-sum game: for someone to win, someone has to lose. Is that what you believe about God?

Pat was on the Beltway Boys the other day and was telling people to invest in contracting firms and cement companies and companies that would be involved in the clean-up and rebuilding in the Gulf. As he quoted, "It's an ill wind that blows nobody any good." Meaning someone can almost always benefit from someone else's tragedy. He is seeing Katrina as a boon, as an answer to prayers, not because God is playing a zero-sum game, but because that's how Pat sees it. You don't have to see it that way at all.

I think I really do see it that way right now. For someone to win, someone else has to lose.

I'd actually feel guilty now praying, because for my most heartfelt wishes to happen, someone else is going to get burned.

There are so many instances of that in the Bible, I remember.

Why did Daniel not get eaten? Because the lions were too full - they had a big meal of Christians the previous night.

Why were Moses' people finally let go? Because all first born male children across Pharoah's kingdom were killed. Forget's Pharoah's stubbornness, it took death to create new life for the Hebrew slaves.

And we praise God for answering our prayers, while someone else suffers in grief? I don't understand.

 

[LadyJeanne]

I think I really do see it that way right now. For someone to win, someone else has to lose.

I'd actually feel guilty now praying, because for my most heartfelt wishes to happen, someone else is going to get burned.

There are so many instances of that in the Bible, I remember.

Why did Daniel not get eaten? Because the lions were too full - they had a big meal of Christians the previous night.

Why were Moses' people finally let go? Because all first born male children across Pharoah's kingdom were killed. Forget's Pharoah's stubbornness, it took death to create new life for the Hebrew slaves.

And we praise God for answering our prayers, while someone else suffers in grief? I don't understand.

I can't speak to the Bible stories - I don't believe they're fact. I believe that's how someone saw things when they wrote the stories down, but not that they are truth or that they didn't have an agenda or axe to grind that colors the stories. These are constructs of the human mind. It's a perspective that's taken, not an absolute truth.

Going with Pat's ill-wind, to me that means two things happened at about the same time, but one did not necessarily cause the other, and neither may have been an answer to anyone's prayers. Perhaps one thing happens, a tragedy, and humans find a way to generate some good out of it, or even just to see some good in it. Some people see Katrina as a tragedy, period. Others see it as an opportunity to make some money by rebuilding, and an opportunity to confirm a Supreme Court appointee while everyone is looking the other way. It's opportunistic thinking, and doesn't have anything to do with God or prayers, unless it's the "God helps those who help themselves" kind of thinking.

Yes, maybe someone has to die in order for another to receive a donated organ. But that someone who died would have died anyway. Humans have found a way to generate some good from it. If we had not made organ donation possible, that someone who died would have died anyway without any good coming from it.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I know prayer has its place for many people as a form of meditation and clearing one's mind. It doesn't really exist in my little world, though, because I'm usually too busy trying to take things on myself.

I don't think that one precludes the other. On a spiritual level, the struggle to do good - whether internally or externally, through acts of courage and charity - is all prayer in its own way.

Shanglan

 

[dr_mabeuse]

The idea of asking for something in prayer--especially for oneself--is foreign to Judaism, and Islam too. I'm sure it happens though. We're only human. We want things.

For Jews, prayer is supposed to be a way of honoring God and his works and giving thanks. To ask for something is to imply that you're unhappy with the way things are working out, which is to second guess God's wisdom, which is a sin. This is especially true in Islam.

Most every Hebrew prayer starts out the same: "Blessed art Thou, Oh King of the Universe..." As a kid, I always wondered how man could bless God, but that's the way it goes.

It's interesting that in Buddhism, desire is the cause of all suffering. The pure man has no desires, not even for his own enlightenment. Pople pray for the ability not to want anything.

As for Pat Robertson, as far as I can tell he prays to himself.

 

[mismused]

delete

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I think this "asking" business in prayers might be distinctly Christian.

In Islam especially, as I understand it, everything is "In sh'Allah": If God Wills it. The central idea of Islam is submission to God's will. God does all things, we're just his instruments. To ask Him to change things just for us must be close to blasphemy.

In Judaism too, as I recall, most beseeching prayers are for God to be with you, or to let you see His wisdom. I really don't recall a tradition of asking God for favors in prayers.

But then, neither Judaism or Islam have a tradition of having God walk among them and know their day to day troubles. In that, Christianity is much more humanist, and maybe that's why the prayers are much more personal and petitional.

 

[champagne1982]

Christ taught his followers to pray for forgiveness, strength and to admit that all things come from God, even that for which we work seemingly independent of Him.
Forgiveness -- without granting forgiveness, we can never be forgiven, if we are never forgiven, we shall not enter paradise.

Strength -- to resist temptation and keep pure.

Admitting God -- grace, love and faith follow.

The rest of the sample prayer, merely addresses salutations and honorifics.

I think prayer serves the purpose of getting to know God. How can you learn about Him without ever having a conversation?

Pray aloud, because even though God knows what's in your heart, Satan has to hear it.

 

[English Lady]

Prayer is communication between God and I. Prayer is as much about listening as it is about talking, and it's not one thing or another.

I do not think anyone can tell you how to pray or what prayer is, really. As prayer is totally different from person to person.

Anyhow, as in the for something good to happen to one person, something bad must happen to another I honestly don't think thats it. I don't think it's balanced like that, I do believe there is a ivine reason to everything and bugger me if i know that reason half the time, but I think we have to rest in God's arms and just let him take care of it.

Prayer is about keeping those lines of communication open. I think it's for the benefit of is humans. It means we can gabble on in God's ear, rather like a toddler talking to mum or dad, just talking for the need to talk, for no other reason than to share with osmeone they love.

We can voice our wants....but again, taking the parent kid thing on again, we're nto always going to get a yes, even when we reckon it's osmething we really, really need. Just as a kid can't work out why mum won't let him have x-toy that he really, desperately desires, wants and needs, we can't understand why God might give that no answer.

I am very aware that I'm often asking God for stuff, so I try to thank as much as ask. I try at least. I count my blessings and it always makes me feel better. Maybe it's a way of centring in on God and letting his Spirit do its trick.

Prayer is powerful, I totally believe that. Prayer does make a difference. There was an interesting programme on telly a while back about it, they did an experiment, some people had prayers said for them, some didn't,and they didn't alwaysknow one way or the other. There was nothing massively conclusive,butthere were things that indicated that those prayed for generally did better, especially those who knew they were being prayed for. That says to me that people feel more positive when they're prayed for, so that in itself is a good reason to pray.

I don't know where i'm going, or where I've been with this, but basically prayer is complex.

God listens, God responds, I don't believe for every yes he hands out a no to someone else. i don't believe we can change God's mind as usch, but I do believe that we can know God's heart through prayer, we can see his purposer, connect with him and see a fraction of what he's seeing.

Thats my belief anyway

 

[rgraham666]

It's odd for an agnostic, but I do pray occasionally.

Most often after I've read about a particularly horrid event in history. I'll pray for the peaceful repose of the victim's souls. I haven't the slightest idea if God hears, or if She answers, but I, for that moment, have faith that She does.

I'll never pray for anything for myself. Such an act is selfish and I don't believe God thinks much of the selfish.

Ultimately, I believe God doesn't care at all what we believe. She only cares about how we act.

 

[kendo1]

As a complete asshole, er... I mean agnostic, I can't see any reason to pray to some mystical being. Though I must admit that if someone is suffering I would wish for that suffering to go away- whether it be starvation, pain, or whatever.

I always wonder where religion came from. As an agnostic I would think it was a way for the masses to be controlled- give them a set of rules to live by and promise them happiness in a future life. A bit like government in a way.

I'll go back to my cave now.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I always wonder where religion came from. As an agnostic I would think it was a way for the masses to be controlled- give them a set of rules to live by and promise them happiness in a future life. A bit like government in a way.

I'll go back to my cave now.

A lot of people buy into that crowd-control view of religion, and there certainly have have been times and places where it applies. But I really think the religious impulse (as oppposed to organized religion itself) comes from our attampt to understand where we come from and where we go and what it all means.

Just like there more to us than what we see (our minds), there must be more to the universe than what we sense as well. I don't believe in God either, but I do believe in the idea of holiness, and I brush up against it every day.