Senior Lovers - Oct. 26, 2001

[Mickie]

Okay, everyone -- the story for this week is Senior Lovers, by The Old Man. Obviously, It's in the mature category. The link --


http://www.literotica.com/stories/showstory.php?id=18503

Mickie

 

[The_old_man]

This story was written strictly as a jerk-off aide during one of my wife's periods of stress. Whenever she gets stressed out over anything, her sex drive goes to 0- and I have to do it myself for a while. During those times, I write stories to get off on. This is one of those stories.

The characters sort of wrote the story themselves, I wrote the first five or six paragraphs, then they took over. My fingers did the typing, but I was just along for the ride.

I submitted the story totally unedited, before I lost my nerve. Just used the WordPerfect speel chukker to find my bad spelling. After it posted, it hit top list in its category and has stayed there.

My request for discussion was prompted by the fact that this story, with all of the Grammatik and punctuation errors, has a much higher vote to read ratio than my second submission which was edited and corrected. It was also in a more popular category.

WHY? There are much better written stories, with much better character development, that have lower vote count and rating. Again . . . Why?

Respectfully
The_old_man

 

[Mickie]

Hi, everyone! I finally got a chance to read through Senior Lovers and I must say, I can see why it stays up in the voting numbers. Grammar and technique aside, it contains the perfect fantasy woman. She is unafraid to say what she wants, is not shy at all, but she still maintains a sense of class and dignity. There isn’t any game-playing about her. She remains honest and true to form throughout the story. The mature edge to it has nothing to do with old bodies, but with the emotional maturity of the main couple.

This is one of those few examples where the style and grammar are secondary to the characters and the story. Actually, they add to the charm of the piece. It’s unpretentious. The only thing I really want to pick on in regards to style is the use of capital letters. They made me pause to figure out why everyone’s shouting. The rest hardly made me pause at all. (I was too busy reading ahead to find out what this miraculous woman did next! )

Obviously, this is more along the lines of porn than erotica. But it works. There are no mundane descriptions of breast size or penis size. It’s about two people who know what they want and are delighted to have found it in each other. Then, to highlight the theme of the piece, the daughter is added as a woman who needs to learn how to get her own needs met.

I know there are going to be some women who will pick on this, so I’m going to start. The daughter was molested by her father (not Jim, but a man her mother was previously married to.) and she obviously has some quirks here because of it. I don’t believe this was handled in a non-compassionate manner, but it really wasn’t dealt with in the form most therapists recommend However, who’s to say her difficulties weren’t dealt with effectively? My only question, since this does involve a mother-daughter team up, is -- should this have been put into the incest category? It isn’t the main theme of the piece, but it does play a significant role. (And might have been part of the reason the numbers were higher on it?)

IF I was going to re-write this, I’d run a simple spell check, read through to find sentences that don’t make complete sense, and give Jim more of a reaction to the news that Elene was molested by her father. He doesn’t have any real internal reaction, merely accepts it as a part of Elene’s past. However, given today’s society, his reaction might be more normal. After all, he wasn’t there, and she’s an adult now. Her inner turmoil over it isn’t something most men would like to deal with. He does what a man would do -- fixes the symptom of her problem.

Although the writing, itself, is amateur at best, this story still provokes an emotional (physical? ) reaction. The Old Man has a story worth telling, and does it in a realistic style that uses background information in a proper way. In other words, to hell with the style and grammar, he told a real story. It didn’t sound stilted, but realistically exactly what he wants in a woman.

Good job!

Mickie

 

[REDWAVE]

Good job

Good job, old man! Sure, there are some mechanical errors, but not so many or so bad that they detract from the story. It's a good, hot stroke story, with plenty of action, and getting hotter as it goes along. The characters are reasonably believable and real (although perhaps the fuck talk is overdone just a bit-- there, my one hint of criticism), and there's conflict between the mother and daughter which is apparently resolved toward the end. I especially liked the shift in point of view at the end, from first person to third person. There's also a message-- that people should be open and honest about their sexuality, rather than hypocritical and phony (like most people are). Good story-- I gave it a 4. (To get a 5 from me, a story has to really blow me away.)

 

[The_old_man]

Thank you Mickie & REDWAVE . Of all my stories(most not ready for publication) this one is my favorite.

 

[daughter]

Enjoyed it

Old Man--

I liked this, too. I have read it through once so pardon me if I make a few mistakes. Initially the man is Paul. Later, you use Jim. I was confused about the incest. I thought it was her stepfather. Later, he's her dad. I agree with Mickie, might want to re-think how to weave this detail into the scene. For me, it was handled a tad too casually. I think anyone who's been a child victim of incest would stumble here.

Some of the sex was to mechanical for me. Too much direction for me. I like explicit sex. The delivery was a little flat at times. Just a personal preference. I liked Jo's demeanor. Thumbs up. I found the interaction between Jim and Joe very believable. I felt you were pushing my envelope with the dialogue between the three of them. They worked through a lot of conflict a little to easy for me. Felt you were asking the reader to suspend too much reality.

I had wondered why you made the observations about Jo's income level. Made sense in the end when you explained Jim's apprehension about potential gold diggers.

Appreciated their ages. I laugh everytime I hear younger people turning up their noses at the idea of their parents having sex. My parents aren't 60 yet, but they have always had a very active sex life. I have been chastised for interrupting their action.

Cool read, Old Man.

Peace,

daughter

 

[The_old_man]

daughter


I just reread the first few pages and didn't find any "Paul" charicter. I have used that name in my other posted story,but did not find it in this one.

As for the casualnes of the incest subject, I intimated that it had been Elene who instigated the seduction, not the father. Yes I treated the complete incest sequence lightly, that is just the way they told my fingers to type it.

Thanks for the other good words.

P.S. This was writen two years ago while my wife was cramming for finals.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Comments on Senior Lovers,

Other's comments cover much ground. Dozens of typos and wrong words.
I.e. "to waist time." They do detract somewhat. The story is jam packed with sex and details so that's obviously why it's a hit. It basically goes down the list of acts.
The characters are interesting, though of course the Mom is just an old ideal-hot porno figure with extra years.

Her approach, like the man's, seems a bit cold blooded. Meet man, eat dinner, walk into apt, take of clothes, sex. I realize this is meant to show a kind of 'liberation' or maturity.


The fact that the characters specify each thing before doing it, takes away the heat;
now you eat me, now we 69, now we fuck. Question: is the suggestion here that older people get over sexual shyness, etc., but get to the point where it's sort of like setting up and having a good tennis game.?

The three way interaction is interesting and--as already noted- the '
sex therapy' for the daughter. Again, it's kind of a formula, older woman describes in detail (for the reader) how to suck a cock.

So as 'the old man' says, its a pretty effective jo story [i'll take your word) though something about the casual atmosphere (nobody seems really hot)--they discuss orgasm records, like baseball scores-- prevents actual arousal in this reader. Chacq'un a son gout.

abashed-dreamer
Jack,
lfmn2x@hotmail.com

 

[KillerMuffin]

We know what's good about the story. It is a purely dedicated fuckfest for the reader. Very good to cum to. To me, this is pure pornography. The sex is the story, not the characters themselves. I found the main character to be more interesting than the rest and the rest were pretty two dimensional to me. Perhaps it was the odd use of the capitalizations over other paragraph or so. I still haven't figured that out. I would read this story if I were looking for a quick orgasm, because it would deliver that.

So, with that in mind, I asked myself a few questions. Would it had been a more effective story if the characters had had more depth? More development? The point of developing a character is to have the character change in some way, usually by learning. Some stories have a main character that never changes, but the rest of the world around him or her does. Beyond fixing the mechanical errors, would the story improve if it were taken beyond pornography into erotica? This story has a very high rating, so it's obviously successful as it is. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. However, is this story broke? Could it be improved or is it fine the way it is? Which is better, pornography or erotica? Would this story have more merit as pornography or erotica?

 

[REDWAVE]

Chardev

There is some character development, in the daughter. But I agree the two main characters are way too "talky" about their sex to be wholly believable.

And no, I didn't get off to the story-- the sex was too tame for me!

 

[Mickie]

Just a quick remark here. I've gotta run to the dinner table in a few.

I disagree that the sex was too 'talky'. It fit the kind of characters the author was trying to portray. Those that aren't afraid to suggest or discuss what they're doing. Wouldn't we all like our partner to be honest enough to say -- stop doing that, I'd rather you do this and I'll do something else. --? It would save a lot of shy women from enduring things that they'd rather change. I think this amount of ease with the subject in a verbal sense is healthy.

Mickie

 

[daughter]

Mickie--

I found Jo's demeanor very appealing and believable. It was the tone of the dialogue that kept this from being arousing in my view. The matter-of-factness of the directions were flat. I didn't find her candor offensive. If I had to give my lover blow by blow directions during the act it diminishes the pleasure. Now, telling him in explicit detail before, is very cool. Asking for some things during is fine, too. In this story some of the action sounded as if they we're putting together an entertainment center. Sorry, but that ain't gonna get my juices flowing.

I like porn and erotica. Depends on my mood. In general though, if I'm going for pure sex, I want it hard, fast, and explosive. The length of this story heightened, leveled off, and then finished quite sensibly. That's not what I expect with porn. With erotica, I expect lots of anticipation, tension, hot figurative language and lavish scenes. I want lots of characterization and fantastic sex to drive me crazy, but just short of enough, always leaving me aching for more of it. I could have slapped D.H. for how he tormented me in "Lady Chatterly's Lover.

Peace,

daughter

 

[The_old_man]

Thank you all for your comments. My one reply to them is, all but Mickie seem to overlook my leading comment in the first post.

This story was written strictly as a jerk-off aide during one of my wife's periods of stress. Whenever she gets stressed out over anything, her sex drive goes to 0- and I have to do it myself for a while. During those times, I write stories to get off on. This is one of those stories

The story was writen as porn. This is why I was quite surprised when it made and remained on the top list.

As KM mentioned,

I would read this story if I were looking for a quick orgasm, because it would deliver that.

My sole reason for writing it.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hello,
I explicitly noted the j.o. remark. And stated for me it doesn't
raise my boat.
I must say that for someone, other than DH Lawrence or H. Miller to ask for analysis of rough draft, is a bit insulting. T.O.M. did not care enough to make it even passable for a high school assignment.
Personally I do not see why the moderator, of 100s of good, halfway polished stories, including some by "the old man", would pick something without the basics. I do not agree with Mickie that "character" etc. can overcome basic English; no way. There is no trade off, imho. Unless the author is a celeb, his or her notes and rough drafts aren't very interesting. We're not dealing with James Joyce's lost notes, here. I would ask Mickie (if he thinks one can make up in character for defective presentation) if he would ever buy a book on that basis, "great story but typos misspelling everywhere, no editing." ??

abashed-dreamer
"Jack"



all but Mickie seem to overlook my leading comment in the first post.
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This story was written strictly as a jerk-off aide

 

[Mickie]

Well, Abashed, if Literotica was full of professional authors, and we had to pay to have the privilage of reading it, then I might be more picky about which stories were picked for discussion. However, Lit is full of amatuer's who just wanna get hot and get other people off. The discussion circle is where those authors can go to learn better techniques, etc. I certainly wouldn't blackball a story because it had a lot of work to be done on it. This is the perfect place for it. If you're looking for great Literature, you're in the wrong place.

A little tolerance can go a long way. I'm not one to usually overlook a huge amount of typos, but this one kinda made me grin. There are a lot of positives about it. Look for those. The Old Man obviously knows there are a few problems with this one. No need to get out a whip and chain him in the dungeon.

As of now, the ONLY rules about getting picked for this discussion forum are as follows --

Nominate your story and then participate in discussions. I don't expect polished work. I expect open minds.

Now, if DH Lawrence or H Miller put up any draft of a story they wrote here, I'd make sure to be extra critical of it. They get paid to write. The Old Man doesn't. I'm a full time author. I WANT the extra critical remarks. It helps me in my day job. Not everyone wants or needs to be whipped for spelling errors that he already said it had. Look beyond that. If it has no merit to you as a story, polished or not, then that's your opinion. Cool. Obviously, plenty of other people found it worthy enough as pure porn. That's just another example of the wide variety of people who visit this site.

Remember, Old Man -- ya can't please everyone.

Mickie

 

[REDWAVE]

Whips & chains

That is, unless he likes being whipped and chained in the dungeon.

 

[Mickie]

Redwave -- I didn't think of that. *evil grin*

Dungeons and whips and shiny new chains -- oh, my!

Now, where did I put that set of handcuffs?

Mickie

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Hi Mickie,

Just a note, since an argument on this topic is unproductive.
I think my second comments are addressed to and prompted by
TOM's responses to the second set of comments: it's "strictly a
jerk-off aide [sic]". This is sounds dismissive, and NOT reflective, imo, of (your words)"a desire to learn better techniques," which you state is a goal, here. You will note that my first set of comments spent only two sentences on spelling issues, and attempted to analyze why, imo, the story failed to arouse.
I did not use the word 'blackball', but if it applies anywhere, it
should apply to cases where the author is(was) not concerned to try
his/her best. I someone who can't spell (a few authors can't) does so--tries, that is--then I would be the first to welcome them.

abashed-dreamer

 

[Mickie]

Point taken, Abashed. I agree that Old Man seems not to want to better this story. However, I think the main point of his putting it here was to find out WHY it did well in the numbers in spite of its so-obvious flaws. Finding that out would enable him to repeat the good bits in his writing, while correcting the flaws in the next story. It isn't up to us to decide what the author does with our advice. He can tell us to shove it and keep doing whatever it is he wants to do.

I think this is worthy of discussion, although I agree with you that arguing about it is pointless. Just what is it that the author wants out of the Discussion Circle? Publicity? Knowledge? An ego stroke? I think it's time for a new thread!

Mickie

 

[Maquinna]

The first thing I have to say about this story is that I couldn't even finish it. The first page didn't even hold my interest. So I, like the old man, have to ask: "why is this story popular?" I think the answer to this question and the reason for my indifference are closely related.

For starters, I do find that the lack of proper spelling, grammar, etc., immediately turns me off. I think it is disrespectful to a reader to expect them to wade through that to figure out what's going on. In a genre where pacing is critical, this is like having a car on 3 cylinders trying to idle on a cold January morning. I don't want to press this point too hard, because I am something of a hardass on this subject, and I think it's been covered. Suffice to say my time is valuable and please don't waste it by making me sort through errors, some of which have the effect of changing the meaning of a sentence.

Obviously, a lot of people DON'T have a problem with that. I would suggest that many of the people who read these stories are not really interested in the stories themselves. They are interested in those nuggets where sex acts are described. Plot, character, etc., are superfluous to a lot of folks who are looking, as some have intimated, to simply frig themselves silly reading this stuff (with thanks to abashed-dreamer for providing that image to me previously).

I, on the other hand, am not interested in purely mechanical depictions of sex acts. The first page of this story seemed to be no more than a laundry list of "first we do this, then we do that...". Frankly, I was bored.

If the story actually does go on to develop character, it would be a blessing. I cannot for the life of me see what character JoAnn has, beyond being a ridiculously willing target of our man's lust.

I also had a problem with this story in terms of its categorization and the way the author's description of JoAnn fit into that. Just what does "mature" and "senior" mean? Over 65? Senior PGA tour age range? Over 7, like my cat's bag of Iams says? And just how does anyone - especially a "mature" woman - have this perfect body? Get real...I'd be a lot more interested if you described a truly mature body, and sex between really mature people - wrinkles and droopy boobs and all. Instead, we have a perfect woman here who just happens to be the mother of some other perfect woman.

Before you all think I am PMSing big time here, let me simply add that it's great that the old man has found a place where his work is appreciated, as indicated by its popularity. I haven't read his other pieces, but if they aren't so "dashed-off", I might try and wade through another. I'd be interested in hearing from someone who really, really liked it, and why. I think the old man is waiting for that person to speak up too!

 

[The_old_man]

Reply to abashed-dreamer and Maquinna .

First, to be compaired, even negitivly, with Lawrence or Miller is an honor.

I must say that for someone, other than DH Lawrence or H. Miller to ask for analysis of rough draft, is a bit insulting. T.O.M. did not care enough to make it even passable for a high school assignment.

As I mentioned in my intro, the stoty was spell-checked by WordPerfect's checker. Yes there are still many homonyms that were not detected. I also mentioned that I had submitted it before I lost my nerve.

I had previosly sent another of my stories to a couple of Lit. editers, one refused it, the other, as both of you with this one, gave up after a couple of pages.

I did submit another story that had been edited for those errors you both deplore. It has a much lower vote to read ratio, and also lower ranking.

So, in light of all the negitive comments in this discussion, I reiterate my initial question.

Why does it have as high a rating as it has?

 

[Mickie]

Let's look at this from another angle. Who reads the Mature category of stories? And what kind of story are they looking for? Obviously, this didn't get it's high rating from those who are looking for a well-written work. It got the rating from the subject matter.

My opinion is that the ideal reader for this story would be older, less likely to want to gymnastic kind of sex, but still wants to appear young. Also this would be a person who believes that foreplay is an unneeded game, and would rather get right down to the 'real sex'. A woman who 'leads' the action is appreciated because the the reader is a bit lazy in real life.

I don't think a lot of women would like this one. It sort of takes away from the fundamental rule of sex for a lot of women -- think about it all day and work up to the frenzy of actually doing it later. Women like seduction, in my experience, and the woman in this story doesn't seduce, nor is she seduced.

That leaves the ideal audience to be a man fantasizing about being with a woman who takes away the need for performing in order to have sex. I suppose that's the draw for me, the part that allowed me to overlook a lot of the writing gaffs. I perform a lot. It's tiring to have to do so when all you really want to do is act typical male, fuck and roll over to sleep. This woman isn't overtly sensual. She says 'let's do this' and then does it. That would be a relief to have the guessword taken out of sex. Will she like this? Will she hate me if I try that? Will she actually say something if she dislikes it or am I going to have to try to read her body language? Hey, is that a twitch of dislike or is it because I've touched something that turns you on? Then she even says Jim is a wonderful lover. To be praised for doing exactly what you're told to do is icing on the cake.

So, that leaves me with a question -- the ideal audience for a fantasy situation. Would that be the opposite of the main character(a person who wants to be different than they are in the fantasy), or would it be someone more like the main character (the identification factor in reading fiction)? Is there room for both?

Mickie

 

[The_old_man]

Thank you Mickie .

I had come to about the same conclusion, with perhaps an added factor. Those who are so offended by the errors that they click out, don't vote. Those who finish the read do vote, and many of those give the higher ratings.

Having read, with dificulty and occasional rrevulsion, at least one story by each of those who participated, I also believe those with the more unconventional tastes also do not vote on my type of writing.

Thank you again for alowing discussion on my story.

The_old_man

 

[Mickie]

You're welcome, Old Man. I think there's definitely a difference between the voting reader and the discriminating reader. Personally, I don't do a lot of voting, although I try. When it comes down to it, I just don't want to take the time to explain why I gave the story a one or a three or a five. And, if I vote, I do try to drop a line to say why I voted that way. That means there's a whole lot more than -- I like this moderately well so I think I'll reward the writer and give him a five without explanation.

Mickie

 

[Alex De Kok]

Dunno on this one. Didn't get me particularly excited, but I wanted to know more about the characters, so I guess that's a plus. I liked the concept too.

The tale has been criticised for being too 'talky'. As someone who enjoys writing dialog(ue) I disagree. Where it went wrong for me was the lack of attention to the conventions of writing dialogue. It was disconcerting to see, so many times, a line or two of dialogue closed with period and quotes, immediately followed by 'Then...'

I found the lack of tags confusing in places, and I say that as someone who wrote an experimental piece without any tags whatsoever. It worked (I think) for a page, but wouldn't in anything longer. As others have remarked, the typos and misspellings put me off, probably to the extent that I was waiting for the next mistake rather than enjoying the story.

I think the reason it's doing so well is possibly because there are a lot of older readers out there who can (or would like to) relate to it, and I think with more attention to grammatical content I would have enjoyed this one rather more than I did.

Alex

My Efforts