Senate committee approves abortions for military-----

[Ishmael]

personel stationed overseas.

I am strongly against this. No, I am not pro-choice or anti-abortion. I am just agaist this for the military. Let me explain my reasoning.

Military personel are expected to be available for duty 24/7/365. That is the nature of the militaries commitment to their job under the oath taken upon enlistment or taking commision. There are no exceptions beyond those that are unavoidable such as illness, or injury.

If a serviceman, or woman, were to subject themselves to a sunburn that prevented them from perfoming their duty, they could be subjected to corporal punishment. Why? Because unless that sunburn was obtained as a part of their ordered duties, it was 100% avoidable. Prudence and common sense would dictate this to be true.

Pregnancy, like the sunburn, is 100% avoidable with the sole exception being rape. All other forms of sexual congress are consensual. A woman that becomes pregnant while on active duty did so full knowing the potential consequences of having sex and the subsequent effect that that would have on her being able to perform her duties as ordered. (A man that contracts a STD while on active duty that prevents the performance of that duty is also subject to military dicsipline and/or discharge under less than honorable conditions.)

The military has made allowances for married military women knowing that sexual unions are a natural marital act and that such marital acts are to be expected. The traditional action was an discharge from duty under honorable conditions.

The sanctioning of irresponsible behavior on the part of our military, men or women, should not be allowed. The military is NOT a business, a social experiment, or summer camp. Their business is deadly serious with dire cnsequences for the nation and it's citizens if they cannot perform their duties as required.

Ishmael

 

[April]

Need more info. A link, maybe?

 

[SINthysist]

"The sanctioning of irresponsible behavior on the part of our military, men or women, should not be allowed. The military is NOT a business, a social experiment, or summer camp. Their business is deadly serious with dire cnsequences for the nation and it's citizens if they cannot perform their duties as required. "



Jeeez Ish, you livin' in 19fucking58 or what. WE ELECTED A DRAFT DODGER!

 

[Ishmael]

Need more info. A link, maybe?

Here ya go April.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,55905,00.html

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Jeeez Ish, you livin' in 19fucking58 or what. WE ELECTED A DRAFT DODGER!

What's this "we" shit redman?

Ishmael

 

[SINthysist]

LOL

The Imperial WE.

 

[April]

I see. It's just a proposal, which is not binding in any way unless included in a signed defense bill

I've never understood why the military and "dependents" over seas are treated differently and restricted more than if you are stationed stateside. I resent it. Highly. It just doesn't make sense. But the military and politics don't make much sense to me.

 

[Ishmael]

I see. It's just a proposal, which is not binding in any way unless included in a signed defense bill

I've never understood why the military and "dependents" over seas are treated differently and restricted more than if you are stationed stateside. I resent it. Highly. It just doesn't make sense. But the military and politics don't make much sense to me.

Yes, that's why I reported it "just out of committee". It is not policy or law of the land.

As far as military restrictions overseas. We are there as guests of the host nation. It is expected that we will respect their laws and culture and conduct ourselves accordingly. That also means that we conduct ourselves with the highest moral turpitude possible. That isn't the way it always works out, but it is the policy and goal. I think that it's a noble goal and respectful of the the host nation to have these policies.

As a side note, the military has been on the cutting edge with respect to foriegn cultures. Dealing with them, living amongst them. The 'politically correct left' could do worse than to study what the military has learned over the years.

Ishmael

 

[SINthysist]

Yes. Look at the treatment of our brave women in Saudi Arabia...

 

[miles]

personel stationed overseas.

I am strongly against this. No, I am not pro-choice or anti-abortion. I am just agaist this for the military. Let me explain my reasoning.

Military personel are expected to be available for duty 24/7/365. That is the nature of the militaries commitment to their job under the oath taken upon enlistment or taking commision. There are no exceptions beyond those that are unavoidable such as illness, or injury.

If a serviceman, or woman, were to subject themselves to a sunburn that prevented them from perfoming their duty, they could be subjected to corporal punishment. Why? Because unless that sunburn was obtained as a part of their ordered duties, it was 100% avoidable. Prudence and common sense would dictate this to be true.

Pregnancy, like the sunburn, is 100% avoidable with the sole exception being rape. All other forms of sexual congress are consensual. A woman that becomes pregnant while on active duty did so full knowing the potential consequences of having sex and the subsequent effect that that would have on her being able to perform her duties as ordered. (A man that contracts a STD while on active duty that prevents the performance of that duty is also subject to military dicsipline and/or discharge under less than honorable conditions.)

The military has made allowances for married military women knowing that sexual unions are a natural marital act and that such marital acts are to be expected. The traditional action was an discharge from duty under honorable conditions.

The sanctioning of irresponsible behavior on the part of our military, men or women, should not be allowed. The military is NOT a business, a social experiment, or summer camp. Their business is deadly serious with dire cnsequences for the nation and it's citizens if they cannot perform their duties as required.

Ishmael

Man, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

Hope you brought a lifeboat, dude. You're in so far over your head here, you're going to need it.

1. There is no such thing as "corporal punishment" in the military.
What the hell are you talking about?

2. A soldier being punished for getting a sunburn? Or an
STD? ROFLMAO!

3. You say you aren't anti-abortion? Maybe not, but you damn
sure don't mind treating this as a moral issue, which it is not.
It's a medical issue.

I never did understand why some men feel compelled to control women's bodies.

Mind your own beeswax.

 

[miles]

Spray liberally throughout this thread

http://www.funmdse.com/store/media/210007m.jpg

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Senate committee approves abortions for military-----

Man, puhleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze.

Hope you brought a lifeboat, dude. You're in so far over your head here, you're going to need it.

1. There is no such thing as "corporal punishment" in the military.
What the hell are you talking about?

UCMJ - Article 15, known as "Captains Mast" in the Navy.

2. A soldier being punished for getting a sunburn? Or an
STD? ROFLMAO!

Absolutely, if it interferes with the normal performance of his/her duty the soldier/airman/whatever could be subjected to a court martial. The lowest level court martial, but a court martial none the less.

3. You say you aren't anti-abortion? Maybe not, but you damn
sure don't mind treating this as a moral issue, which it is not.
It's a medical issue.

Where is morals involved with the perfomance of one's duties? I see no moral statement on my part at all. Other than a reference to the militaries treatment of pregnancy within marriage, and that's thier issue and policy, not mine.

I never did understand why some men feel compelled to control women's bodies.

Mind your own beeswax.

But it's OK for the military to control mens bodies?

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

BTW, the specific code under which 'sunburn' and 'pregnancies' may be prosecuted is:

From the U.S. Code Online via GPO Access
[wais.access.gpo.gov]
[Laws in effect as of January 2, 2001]
[Document not affected by Public Laws enacted between
January 2, 2001 and January 28, 2002]
[CITE: 10USC915]


TITLE 10--ARMED FORCES

Subtitle A--General Military Law
PART II--PERSONNEL

CHAPTER 47--UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE

SUBCHAPTER X--PUNITIVE ARTICLES

Sec. 915. Art. 115. Malingering

Any person subject to this chapter who for the purpose of avoiding work, duty, or service--
(1) feigns illness, physical disablement, mental lapse or derangement; or
(2) intentionally inflicts self-injury;

shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 72.)

Historical and Revision Notes
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Revised section Source (U.S. Code) Source (Statutes at Large)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
915................................... 50:709. May 5, 1950, ch. 169, Sec. 1 (Art.
115), 64 Stat. 139.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Section Referred to in Other Sections

This section is referred to in section 937 of this title.


Ishmael

 

[miles]

This whole thread is a major stretch. It's a non-issue.

It's not even a molehill.

 

[miles]

And by the way, you're confusing corporal punishment with court martial. There is no such thing as corporal punishment in the military.

If you get sunburned while fucking someone and contract an STD, you're in deep, deep shit.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, Miles, it's the truth. What you fail to realize is that when you sign your name to that dotted line and raise your hand and say "I, your name here, do solemnly swear.." that you are giving up a lot of your rights. You are no longer a free citizen of the united states of america, you're an indentured servant. And this is a vital and necessary concept. War isn't a playground and training for war needs to be as hard as or harder than war. When someone has the power to make you do something that will get you killed, then you must have the training to follow the order.

You can get punished for getting a sunburn. You can get punished if you wife gets a sunburn. You can get punished for getting an STD. You can get punished for a lot of shit that would never make it to civilian courts. And it's perfectly legal and happens frequently.

April, the reason why you're so restricted overseas is because you're not on American soil. The military reservation that you live on is military soil and the same rights that you enjoy on American soil do not apply to military reservations, even the ones in the United States of America.

If you, as a civilian American, go out into Germany and do something that insults your host country, intentional or not, the repercussions don't just stop with you, they travel to everyone on that base. Your behavior doesn't just effect you, it effects every American there. The reason you're restricted so much is because the most irresponsible people in the military are people like you, the spouses. You won't get punished beyond getting deported, but your hubby's ass will be racked. If you don't like it, go home. The military will pay to move you back home and your guy will get a nice barracks room. Of course, you won't get VHA and BAQ, but that's the way it works.

We need to go back to 1958 style as far as the military is concerned. Discipline is lax, military bearing is practically non-existent, and bleeding-heart morons have castrated the military. I could go on and on, but I'm not going to. VOLAR mentality fucked us over. I'm for eliminating it, but the screeching from idiots who think the world would be a happier place if the military had one person it wouldn't permit it.

 

[KillerMuffin]

It's not corporal punishment, it's non-judicial punishment. Ish used the wrong words. A mild sunburn won't do anything, but if your sunburn prevents you from doing your duties you will get NJP.

You should read the UCMJ, miles. Your Libertarian sensibilites would get so anti-military you'd look just like a liberal.

 

[Ishmael]

It's not corporal punishment, it's non-judicial punishment. Ish used the wrong words. A mild sunburn won't do anything, but if your sunburn prevents you from doing your duties you will get NJP.

You should read the UCMJ, miles. Your Libertarian sensibilites would get so anti-military you'd look just like a liberal.

NJP is a more recent term KM. The reason that I, and some of the other old timers, refered to it as corporal punishment is that this is the Article under which soldiers and sailors were 'flogged'. The flogging was stricken by congress prior to WW I. But as you well know, Article 15 still includes restriction to quarters, restriction of food services (no bread and water anymore though), as well as a host of other punishments.

The 'indentured servitude' description is close to the truth KM.

I have also heard rumors of Article 108 being applied to sunburn and other similar cases, but probably only on an Article 15 basis. I don't think that would stand the light of day at a special or summary court.

Ishmael

 

[April]

KM, I'm perfectly aware of all the issues you pointed out. I've been a "dependent" for 15 years. I'm no newbie at this. But I still reserve my right to dislike certain things about living overseas.

As you well know. LOL

 

[miles]

killer muffin

What gave you a case of red ass?

I'm a veteran, and know what the UCMJ is. There is nothing even remotely anti-military in my post, unless of course disagreeing with you automatically makes it so. Use that shit on someone else, like redwave, because that's the kind of nonsense I expect from him

This whole thing is a stretch. Sure, they MAY be given an Article 15 if they get a sunburn, get caught wanking their winkie, or scratching their ass wrong. But to equate abortion with staying out in the sun too long is fucking goofy.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: killer muffin

What gave you a case of red ass?

I'm a veteran, and know what the UCMJ is. There is nothing even remotely anti-military in my post, unless of course disagreeing with you automatically makes it so. Use that shit on someone else, like redwave, because that's the kind of nonsense I expect from him

This whole thing is a stretch. Sure, they MAY be given an Article 15 if they get a sunburn, get caught wanking their winkie, or scratching their ass wrong. But to equate abortion with staying out in the sun too long is fucking goofy.

It's not an equation. It's the fact that being 'unfit for duty' due to ones actions is a punishable offense miles. It's that simple. Both offenses, in the military view, are the same and punishable under the same article.

As KM and I have both pointed out, when you take the oath you subject yourself to a completely different set of rules and a completely different culture.

My point is that each and every member of the armed forces is critical to the defense of the country. Regardless of race, creed, or gender. To make ones self unavailable for duty for any reason under the individuals control is not to be condoned. That is the point.

Ishmael

 

[Laurel]

That's what so odd to me - equating abortion with "irresponsibility". NO birth control is 100% effective. Not every woman who wants an abortion is a bar slut using it as contraceptive. Life is more complicated than that.

And if I smoke all my life and end up with lung damage, is that not 'irresponsible'? If I trip on the sidewalk and break my leg, is that not 'irresponsible'? In both cases, would I not be entitled to treatment if I were in the military?

Abortion is a medical procedure. If you have moral issues with it, don't have one. The Amish don't believe in blood transfusions, but that doesn't make blood transfusions wrong for everyone. The government has no right to interfere with the morality of its citizenry. I know that the military is not civilian life - and necessarily so - but I think that this is a restriction that had no purpose but to deprive the military of a very basic right to choice. If the government required all military personnel to convert to Catholicism, that would be wrong. Even military personnel have a right to their own religious/moral life.

 

[miles]

The Amish don't believe in blood transfusions, but that doesn't make blood transfusions wrong for everyone.

Ever notice that Amish people look a lot like Hassidic Jews?

 

[Ishmael]

That's what so odd to me - equating abortion with "irresponsibility". NO birth control is 100% effective. Not every woman who wants an abortion is a bar slut using it as contraceptive. Life is more complicated than that.

And if I smoke all my life and end up with lung damage, is that not 'irresponsible'? If I trip on the sidewalk and break my leg, is that not 'irresponsible'? In both cases, would I not be entitled to treatment if I were in the military?

Abortion is a medical procedure. If you have moral issues with it, don't have one. The Amish don't believe in blood transfusions, but that doesn't make blood transfusions wrong for everyone. The government has no right to interfere with the morality of its citizenry. I know that the military is not civilian life - and necessarily so - but I think that this is a restriction that had no purpose but to deprive the military of a very basic right to choice. If the government required all military personnel to convert to Catholicism, that would be wrong. Even military personnel have a right to their own religious/moral life.

Taking it to the extreme laurel. You know as well as I that there are measures that a woman can take to insure that there will be no pregnancy.

Morals is not the issue here. Fitness for duty is. I have made no mention of morals at all. My argument is based soley on the aforementioned 'fitness for duty'.

There are some few that would argue that being a clerk typist is not a 'critical' military occupation and that in and of itself is true. However, the military has a different opinion. That being that every soldiers job is that of a rifleman or sailor and that all other activities are secondary. One of the reasons that every member of the military undergoes small arms training and is expected to re-qualify on an annual basis.

Their primary mission is the defense of this country. Place your self in those shoes and drop the corporate/social crap for a while.

Ishmael

 

[Ishmael]

Ever notice that Amish people look a lot like Hassidic Jews?

I think the difference is the Cadillac's vs. the horse and buggy.

Ishmael