Segregation making a comeback.

[Sean Renaud]

Considerably more than a few. Statistically you are wrong.

You are naive. Each school gets to contract with any teacher they want. All that is required to get rid of a teacher is to not renew their contract. And then you get to replace them with a teacher of your (or the parents) choice. All part of the union negotiations.

Yes it does mean they're dumber.

A degree in what? Underwater basket weaving? Or perhaps a degree in 'education.' Besides, it doesn't sound as if you are in any position to give an informed answer to my question.

Ishmael

Citation is needed that I'm statistically wrong about how many girls get pregnant as a way out. Since that's not even and option for men the drop out numbers of women must be much higher than for guys while we're at it.

How am naive? You're point is still capitalism at work and has little to do with the union.

No it does not mean they are dumber.

A degree in the relevant subject. Not in education but in the subject they are going to be teaching. I do love how people who don't respect education are all about underwater basket weaving though. It's so cute.

Do you actually mean that after somebody graduates from college, some kind of gov. czar should say something like: "Congratulations and here is your ticket to Hinges of Hell, AZ or Iceberg, AK, or Bombville, MI or Chicago?" Nobody will take up teaching as a career.

Millions sign up to join the military. I think you'd be surprised the number of people who would pursue that career.

By "quite well' I mean that despite being interrupted in the middle of 1st grade and moved to rural California, I had no trouble keeping up... And by the first semester of second grade I finished not only the entire SRA* box for second grade, I also completed grades 3 through 6. The second semester of 2nd grade they just let me read a book a day from the library during reading time.

By 6th grade when they wanted to teach speed reading to me in a gifted class I was already in excess of their reading rate goals.

I seriously credit the see and say method. First you grasp small words, then larger ones. Larger ones are easier because they have a more unique look. Eventually you can see entire sentences at once. It does make for some hilarious catastrophic errors at times, but nothing like it for churning through material.

*Student Read Acheivment (little laminated cards with a few paragraphs on them then a comprehension test on the reverse

By that method then I was a bloody genius but I was tested as gifted in K and spent most of my school career in gifted classes. *Shrug* My only comment there of note was

 

[Ishmael]

Citation is needed that I'm statistically wrong about how many girls get pregnant as a way out. Since that's not even and option for men the drop out numbers of women must be much higher than for guys while we're at it.

How am naive? You're point is still capitalism at work and has little to do with the union.

No it does not mean they are dumber.

A degree in the relevant subject. Not in education but in the subject they are going to be teaching. I do love how people who don't respect education are all about underwater basket weaving though. It's so cute.

Look through the DATA section here. The interview statements re. "desiring to become pregnant" do not match up with the frequency of unprotected sex stats. If there's any good news, teen pregnancy is on the decrease now. Morning after pill?

It's called local control, has little to do with capitalism, and is the reason you're never going to nationalize the schools.

Yeah, they pretty much are.

Are you speaking for New York?

Ishmael

 

[Boxlicker101]

Millions sign up to join the military. I think you'd be surprised the number of people who would pursue that career.

I don't believe millions sign up every year for the military. Over a period of time, yes, but not every year. Most people join the military for a relatively short period of time. You are writing about sending teachers to any kind of hellhole for twenty years or more.

 

[unregistered]

 

[Sean Renaud]

I don't believe millions sign up every year for the military. Over a period of time, yes, but not every year. Most people join the military for a relatively short period of time. You are writing about sending teachers to any kind of hellhole for twenty years or more.

Millions dont' need to sign up every year for the military. (Though knowing the retention rate probably just shy of a million do sign up annually but I'd be curious to see the numbers.)

Yep I am talking about sending teachers to any kind of hell hole but not for twenty years or more. I'm specifically talking about moving them around on a somewhat regular basis so all the good ones don't end up concentrated in one location. That would be stupid.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Millions dont' need to sign up every year for the military. (Though knowing the retention rate probably just shy of a million do sign up annually but I'd be curious to see the numbers.)

Yep I am talking about sending teachers to any kind of hell hole but not for twenty years or more. I'm specifically talking about moving them around on a somewhat regular basis so all the good ones don't end up concentrated in one location. That would be stupid.

So, over a period of twenty years, the teacher will be assigned to five different hellholes. BFD.

 

[Sean Renaud]

So, over a period of twenty years, the teacher will be assigned to five different hellholes. BFD.

Potentially yes. Though there are obvious ways to fix that. But yeah someone somewhere will draw the short straw and get stuck in Montana.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Potentially yes. Though there are obvious ways to fix that. But yeah someone somewhere will draw the short straw and get stuck in Montana.

I'd rather be in Montana than inner city Chicago.

 

[Sean Renaud]

I'd rather be in Montana than inner city Chicago.

Oh well. I'll run that risk. The alternative is to simply nuke Chicago and call it a day.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Oh well. I'll run that risk. The alternative is to simply nuke Chicago and call it a day.

But do it when the Cubs are on the road.

 

[Sean Renaud]

But do it when the Cubs are on the road.

Nah, just sell them off to somewhere else, probably LA or New York we can absorb one more sports group. There are probably a few more.

You're point is well made, people don't like to teach in inner city Chicago. Good teachers can write their own ticket and do not teach in inner city Chicaco. As a result students in inner city Chicago get subpar education, do not make it into college (even with Affirmative Action), do not go on to be successful adults because they lack an education. They then grow up and have children who live in inner city Chicago.

You either want to break the chain of events that leads to this or you do not.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Nah, just sell them off to somewhere else, probably LA or New York we can absorb one more sports group. There are probably a few more.

You're point is well made, people don't like to teach in inner city Chicago. Good teachers can write their own ticket and do not teach in inner city Chicaco. As a result students in inner city Chicago get subpar education, do not make it into college (even with Affirmative Action), do not go on to be successful adults because they lack an education. They then grow up and have children who live in inner city Chicago.

You either want to break the chain of events that leads to this or you do not.

It would be good if the vicious circle could come to an end, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Besides which, I have often said the key is good learning, not good teaching. Kids in Chicago get the same textbooks as the kids in Peoria or Evanston or Springfield and they can learn from them just as those other kids do. A lot of Chicago get into college. Hillary Rodham did.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Considerably more than a few. Statistically you are wrong.

You are naive. Each school gets to contract with any teacher they want. All that is required to get rid of a teacher is to not renew their contract. And then you get to replace them with a teacher of your (or the parents) choice. All part of the union negotiations.

Yes it does mean they're dumber.

A degree in what? Underwater basket weaving? Or perhaps a degree in 'education.' Besides, it doesn't sound as if you are in any position to give an informed answer to my question.

Ishmael

You're factually wrong here.

Schools do not contract with teachers. Districts employ teachers. The only instance where you would be correct is in the case of a district so small it only has one school.

That depends on what kind of contract they have.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

It would be good if the vicious circle could come to an end, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Besides which, I have often said the key is good learning, not good teaching. Kids in Chicago get the same textbooks as the kids in Peoria or Evanston or Springfield and they can learn from them just as those other kids do. A lot of Chicago get into college. Hillary Rodham did.

There's lots you can do to break that cycle. Go into your local socio-economical impoverished area and volunteer your time as a mentor.

If they have the same books & the graduation rate is different, there must be some other variable at play.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

The unions are the reason they get to pick and choose. If you try to take that away you're likely to start a general strike.

Although the unions are a big part of the problem, they are by no means the only part, or even the biggest part. They share the blame along with a host of other issues.

Virtually all low performing inner city schools dominated by minorities share similar traits.

1. Parent(s) that are apathetic, and in some cases down right hostile, to education.

2. Drugs, alcohol, pregnancies.

3. An over abundance of single parent homes.

Add the unions to that list and you have the big four.

Obviously there is an entire laundry list of lesser contributing factors but focusing on them, or even trying to address them, is a waste of time until you have tackled, and solved, the big four.

Ishmael

This is also factually wrong.

Teachers are employed by districts & as such the district can move them as the employer sees fit (provided they are certified to teach that subject).

I haven't seen every union contract but the ones I have seen won't stop a teacher from being moved somewhere else in the district. If you know of a union contract that mandates exactly what a teacher will teach for their career please share it.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

There is a reason that in the large school districts that the 'for shit' school are staffed mostly with the incompetent and inexperienced teachers.

Ishmael

I'd love to see the cite on this.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

You can squirm all you want, it's all right there in the article I posted. 83% are below "proficient" numb nuts, that means they can't read worth a shit...like I said.

No! It doesn't mean that. If you're basing it on what the test says it means that 83% can't read at an 8th grade level (whatever that is). It doesn't mean they can't read at all.

 

[SgtSpiderMan]

Jesus, but you are naive and simplistic.

Birth control is not an issue, readily available, all sorts. But you can't make them use it. Did it ever occur to you that some of those girls, quite mistakenly, see a child as a way out? Money from the govm't etc.

You can't compare the unions of France or Germany to ours without also comparing the rules under which they operate as enacted by the national authority.

It would also behoove you to look into how the unions inter operate at the local level with regard to their membership and how teachers MAY move from school to school. I would also hasten to point out to you that unions are advocates for their members, NOT for the students. Although if you peruse their websites you will see that they ofter try to push their agenda by hiding behind the students skirts.

Following up on that there is the question of the teachers education as well. In the US education majors have the lowest mean SAT scores of any of the 4 year degrees and those that pursue post grad degrees have the lowest mean GRE scores. Which is to say many of them are dumber than the students they are expected to teach. I don't know if it's true anymore but at one time in the state of New York you had to have a masters degree IN the subject you were teaching or you weren't going to teach in that school at all. I'd be interested if someone knowledgeable in this area from the state of New York knows if this is still true or not?

Ishmael

You might very well be right, but the data from the SAT doesn't prove that. Your assertion shows you don't know what a mean is & you don't know what the SAT is.

 

[Sean Renaud]

It would be good if the vicious circle could come to an end, but there is nothing I can do about it.

Besides which, I have often said the key is good learning, not good teaching. Kids in Chicago get the same textbooks as the kids in Peoria or Evanston or Springfield and they can learn from them just as those other kids do. A lot of Chicago get into college. Hillary Rodham did.

Of course there is. Get better funding for those schools and along with it better teachers. Or stop complaining when they have massive crime rates just like everyplace with poor education and poor people. We know how to unfuck the situation we or your accurately you actively choose not to.

They have the same text books, they do not have the same quality of campus, nor the same quality of teacher. Something both you and Ishmael have made abundantly clear. This is one possible way to fix that. One that the only arguments against seem to be your beloved Union wouldn't allow it (I never thought two Conservatives would be arguing that. If the Union needs to go and a solid case is made axe it.) That people won't volunteer to make good salaries if there is a risk they might spend some of their lives in a part of the country they don't like. The number of people who move for their jobs and join the military both beg to differ there and finally you blaming the students.

The students of the inner city. It's not a reinforcing loop it's something wrong with the kids that prevents good learning. Can someone tell me what Box would tell us is different about these kids?

 

[Boxlicker101]

Of course there is. Get better funding for those schools and along with it better teachers. Or stop complaining when they have massive crime rates just like everyplace with poor education and poor people. We know how to unfuck the situation we or your accurately you actively choose not to.

They have the same text books, they do not have the same quality of campus, nor the same quality of teacher. Something both you and Ishmael have made abundantly clear. This is one possible way to fix that. One that the only arguments against seem to be your beloved Union wouldn't allow it (I never thought two Conservatives would be arguing that. If the Union needs to go and a solid case is made axe it.) That people won't volunteer to make good salaries if there is a risk they might spend some of their lives in a part of the country they don't like. The number of people who move for their jobs and join the military both beg to differ there and finally you blaming the students.

The students of the inner city. It's not a reinforcing loop it's something wrong with the kids that prevents good learning. Can someone tell me what Box would tell us is different about these kids?

First, I dislike the union and have done so since I was a young child. At one time, there may have been a need for them but that time is past and all they do now is protect incompetence and malfeasance.

People do move because of their jobs but the moves usually represent promotions and the jobs are well-paying ones. GM is not going to transfer an assembly line worker, but they might transfer the COO.

There are differences between kids in the inner cities and those in the suburbs. More often than not, the former are members of minorities and have less money. They are more likely to be part of a single parent household and much more likely to become addicted to drugs or booze and to have children out of wedlock.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Money has nothing to do with it.

Whats true is this:

When children become wards of the state they are wild and feral for a few weeks, then gradually respond to order and routine and new habits. Within a month they act like most kids.

Ghetto kids and trailer trash kids act like feral animals because they have no discipline or order in their lives. Their lives are chaotic. These kids are out on the street till midnite, usually unfed and filthy and ill prepared for school, if they go to school the next day. You don't see this in better neighborhoods or neighborhoods where parents are competent, responsible adults. Money is a symptom of the dysfunction.

 

[Sean Renaud]

First, I dislike the union and have done so since I was a young child. At one time, there may have been a need for them but that time is past and all they do now is protect incompetence and malfeasance.

People do move because of their jobs but the moves usually represent promotions and the jobs are well-paying ones. GM is not going to transfer an assembly line worker, but they might transfer the COO.

There are differences between kids in the inner cities and those in the suburbs. More often than not, the former are members of minorities and have less money. They are more likely to be part of a single parent household and much more likely to become addicted to drugs or booze and to have children out of wedlock.

The need today is the same as it ever was. Our wages haven't stagnated for nothing. Employees do not have a strong bargaining position right now. Whatever incompetence they do protect is simply an unfortunate side effect of the world we live in.

Make teaching a well paying job. If necessary make the worst schools pay better as part of some sort of incentive. Base Pay + it sucks to be you pay.

Well the kids can't help but be minorities, or being part of a single parent household. At least the drugs thing can in part be battled by keeping them educated but that's just a crap shot.