Seeking more knowledge...

[TheWanderer]

Hello again.. new topic, new thread. But thanks to everyone who helped me get a clearer view. For those who saw my other thread (about how to start being a Dom without involving sex), I'm not dating right now - taking time to reevaluate self and make some long-needed changes - but I'm intrigued by the D/s relationship.

I just have to throw this out there... I've always wanted to be with a woman who was truly passionate about her love, but I had never realized just how wild a sub could be, until my roommate talked to me at length about what she would be willing to do for a Dominant man in her life. Sadly, had I figured out how to be that man, I'd not be here tonight..

....ah well...

What I'm wondering about is something she said, about pouting. She told me she would probably get punished for it, and he told her he'd make her go in the other room for it - and she readily admitted this would work, since she would be denied giving affection to her man.

1) I know not all Doms would do so, but why would you punish a sub for pouting? (esp. since she has a GREAT pout! heh)

2) Is denial of affection/attention (but NEVER of love) a fairly common/reasonable punishment? Seemed weird to me, but in a vanilla sense, it's like playing 'hard to get' - and in that light, sure, it seems a little more kosher.

3) I understand fully that the Dom takes the lead, helps his sub explore her limits, helps her (in some cases) find the pleasure she can't unlock herself - but I also realize that a lot of what the Dom is doing is molding behavior, i.e. 'if you pout, you will be punished'. To what end does setting up boundaries enhance the D/s interaction - is it to establish things that can safely be done to bring about disapproval, and thus conform more directly to the Master's wishes?

Thanks in advance for the replies!

 

[Shadowsdream]

pouting

can be cute and provocative done in a playful teasing manner... I do not equate pouting as bad behaviour.

BUT

a sub that THINKS I will accept the pouting *word* to describe his or her sulking begins to question My intellect.

Sulking is boring and disrespectful to Me. Removing that distasteful looking face from My presense is as simple as sending her or him from the room or having them keep their displeasing little faces down with eyes to the floor in silence.

Looking inside to see what is causing this unbecoming behaviour because you can bet your boots it will be dissected deeply when I am in the mood to dissect it!

My silence will thunder and the chill in the air will soon cool rebellion. I see sulking as a semi-passive rebellion.

 

[artful]

Shadows

pouting

can be cute and provocative done in a playful teasing manner... I do not equate pouting as bad behaviour.

BUT

a sub that THINKS I will accept the pouting *word* to describe his or her sulking begins to question My intellect.

Sulking is boring and disrespectful to Me. Removing that distasteful looking face from My presense is as simple as sending her or him from the room or having them keep their displeasing little faces down with eyes to the floor in silence.

Looking inside to see what is causing this unbecoming behaviour because you can bet your boots it will be dissected deeply when I am in the mood to dissect it!

My silence will thunder and the chill in the air will soon cool rebellion. I see sulking as a semi-passive rebellion.

With respect-Thank you for typing my response!

 

[~Dream~]

Re: Shadows

With respect-Thank you for typing my response!

boy was that ever the truth!!being an expert "pouter' if you will I KNOW that my Master does NOT put up with such shenanigans from me and if it displeases Him ,and i NOW KNOW that it does ,then it will serve as nothing more than my own gratification and NOT His,which is contrary to my submissiveness and therefore wrong indeed ,altho it may 'seem' cute,it in fact is disrespectful and solves nothing at all..

 

[Shadowsdream]

no problem Art....I know Your fingers were tired ~~grin~~

 

[SexyChele]

1) I know not all Doms would do so, but why would you punish a sub for pouting? (esp. since she has a GREAT pout! heh)

If the pouting is done in a playful way, I know very few Doms who wouldn't be able to crack a smile! However, pouting is also a form of infantile "I-didn't-get-my-way" agression. Little girls pout when they are denied their candy or toy. Why do they do this? They know they can't speak out directly, so they make their displeasure known by pouting. Do parents put up with this behavior? (Okay, yeah, some do, I know!) Not if they are smart.

Now, a sub is not a child. But the behavior results from the same feelings. "I didn't get my way. I can't state how I feel, so I will show him!" Most Doms will take this as disrepectful and stop the behavior.

2) Is denial of affection/attention (but NEVER of love) a fairly common/reasonable punishment? Seemed weird to me, but in a vanilla sense, it's like playing 'hard to get' - and in that light, sure, it seems a little more kosher.

You are talking "abandonment" here. It is (over??) used very often. For some subs, it is very effective. Others consider it emotional abuse. For me, it is totally ineffectual. In my opinion, when a Dom pulls the ol' "I'm outta here until you learn to behave" routine, I view it as his own little snit, and just exit, stage left. I wait for him to "get over" his little trip, then make sure I stay gone for a while. That is why this doesn't work. It reduces the Dom's efforts to having to woo me back, or draw me back out into the open.

So, answer: yes, it is fairly common. But it does not always have the effect most Doms expect.


3) I understand fully that the Dom takes the lead, helps his sub explore her limits, helps her (in some cases) find the pleasure she can't unlock herself - but I also realize that a lot of what the Dom is doing is molding behavior, i.e. 'if you pout, you will be punished'. To what end does setting up boundaries enhance the D/s interaction - is it to establish things that can safely be done to bring about disapproval, and thus conform more directly to the Master's wishes?

Boundaries are not always just for Doms. They work for both Doms and subs. Yes, they enhance the interaction, and, in my opinion, are absolutely necessary. There are certain things I absolutely, positively will never, ever do. End of the story. That's it. I expect a Dom to respect that. At the same time, I expect him to tell me what he wants and desires. What he considers to be important, and things he will not do. It helps me to know of ways to please him and make the relationship flow smoothly.

 

[TheWanderer]

Okay, I get the basic idea behind the 'no pouting' thing. As she put it, pouting is an attempt to get her way, and is a minor form of pleasant manipulation. If I were still with her, I might allow a pout as an expression of a rough day at work, getting lost, etc. But pouting to get her way would get punished...

...is it wrong to punish something in such a way that you kinda of encourage the behavior? For example, she pouts in the car, you tell her she's in trouble, and when you get home, you're a little extra dominate towards her?

See, truth be told, she has a pout that just melts my heart, and I like to see it - but would have to treat it in context. Also, this is a woman who has 'pushed the envelope' her whole life - and any man who would be her Master would have to be strong enough to deal with it, but not excessively punitive to drive her away.

Thoughts?

 

[Shadowsdream]

thoughts

I think Masters are not created to *get* the woman. They are born with the DESIRE to control and cultivate a submissives sexuallity at the very least and take care of her total lifes decisions at the very most. Yes it can be late in life before they realize they have it in them...and begin the journey to discover how deep it goes.

BUT

Once a man or a woman tries to recreate themselves into a Dominant..and no less..a Dominant molded to what turns on the person with submissive desires..they are already on the road that will go nowhere.

SO..Yes Masters should enjoy the attributes in the sub they choose, even bratty pouty attributes IF that Master understands that it is a flirtatious extension of her natural personality..and it is something that He truly enjoys. In that case it serves no purpose to *punish* her for what really turns Him on.~IF He wishes to encourage the *pout* because He enjoys it then mild mind games will keep her there but He can bet His boots she knows what He is up to.

NO problem..IF that is what THEY enjoy...

NOW We cross into what she really wants...IF it is control by a Dominant and she has any intellect at all she will have no difficulty seeing who is Dominating who. The game will wear thin very soon as really all she has ended up with is a 'nilla acting Dom.

 

[Guest]

Not quite the same as pouting but...

 

[artful]

Re: Not quite the same as pouting but...

I had a hissy fit not so long ago and stamped my foot.

It's a bad habit of mine, one that's been with me all my life. It's the first time I've done it when I've been with Him, though.

I was punished for my behaviour immediately, and was also given an explanation for why such behaviour won't be tolerated.

I won't do it again.

At least, I hope I won't

Eb stamps her feet too,...Dontcha Sis?

(course,...it's ok for her,...she's a Domme)

 

[TheWanderer]

Hmm...

Okay, I'm a little confused here...

Once a man or a woman tries to recreate themselves into a Dominant..and no less..a Dominant molded to what turns on the person with submissive desires..they are already on the road that will go nowhere.

SO..Yes Masters should enjoy the attributes in the sub they choose, even bratty pouty attributes IF that Master understands that it is a flirtatious extension of her natural personality..and it is something that He truly enjoys. In that case it serves no purpose to *punish* her for what really turns Him on.~IF He wishes to encourage the *pout* because He enjoys it then mild mind games will keep her there but He can bet His boots she knows what He is up to.

NO problem..IF that is what THEY enjoy...

NOW We cross into what she really wants...IF it is control by a Dominant and she has any intellect at all she will have no difficulty seeing who is Dominating who. The game will wear thin very soon as really all she has ended up with is a 'nilla acting Dom.

All right, I have fully understood that - deep down - the sub controls the Dom in her own way as much as the Dom controls the sub. Simply due to the reality that, save an abusive relationship, the Dom will not push the sub past what she allows, and if the sub feels she is not getting what she wants - she could leave the relationship.

But I'm confused by what you mean here... are you saying that a Dom who allows the sub to pout is allowing her to run the show, and isn't truly being Dominant?

 

[Shadowsdream]

(All right, I have fully understood that - deep down - the sub controls the Dom in her own way as much as the Dom controls the sub. Simply due to the reality that, save an abusive relationship, the Dom will not push the sub past what she allows, and if the sub feels she is not getting what she wants - she could leave the relationship.

But I'm confused by what you mean here... are you saying that a Dom who allows the sub to pout is allowing her to run the show, and isn't truly being Dominant?)


I *am* saying a submissive does NOT want to run the show. she can run the show in the 'nilla world if that is what she was looking for.

There must be compatibility...desire..magic...BUT what you are asking is (in My opinion) is if encouraging the pout by promising a later punishment...just to see the pout...and then throwing in a LITTLE extra Dominating behaviour is a good thing or a bad thing.

And I am replying..if that rocks your boat and hers..it can't be wrong..is it Dominating? Not in My opinion....

You are not asking about *allowing* in My opinion. It turns you on. But it is NOT authentic to pretend it doesn't unless that really is a kink you both have..The role play.~

I do not see the sub as controlling the Dom/me in anyway. They have reached a consensus as to what each is looking for. I would never choose a sub I was expected to submit to for a single second. ~~grin~~.

I am also NOT saying she SHOULD leave the relationship..I AM saying..eventually she will..it is NOT what she is looking for..IF she told you she is looking for Domination why would you doubt she knew what she wanted?

There is no right or wrong way..I am simply sharing what I have seen time after time to be reality.

 

[artful]

Wanderer

I may be completely WRONG in posting this, but I am only trying to help you.

It appears that you are TRYING to mold yourself into an acceptable likeness, as to what this woman has expressed as her needs, wants, and desires.

In doing so,...you will NOT be developing YOURSELF toward YOUR needs, wants, and desires. There IS a BIG difference here.

No one, not a sub, nor a Dom/me, should take it upon themself, to MOLD themself to fit their opposite.

It NEVER works! Many people have tried it, and many people end up wasting away,...TRYING to make their opposite HAPPY.

Believe me,...that's a road many are on,...but they are NOT happy with their trip!

The key to a successful relationship, is to find one who COMPLETES each others needs, wants, and desires.

Best Wishes,...................................Art

 

[TheWanderer]

Re: Wanderer

It appears that you are TRYING to mold yourself into an acceptable likeness, as to what this woman has expressed as her needs, wants, and desires.
In doing so,...you will NOT be developing YOURSELF toward YOUR needs, wants, and desires. There IS a BIG difference here.
No one, not a sub, nor a Dom/me, should take it upon themself, to MOLD themself to fit their opposite.
It NEVER works! Many people have tried it, and many people end up wasting away,...TRYING to make their opposite HAPPY.
Believe me,...that's a road many are on,...but they are NOT happy with their trip!
The key to a successful relationship, is to find one who COMPLETES each others needs, wants, and desires.

Hmm, good point - thank you. I'll have to do a little refocusing.. and besides, if it's not about this woman, I'm sure there'll be another special person in my life down the road - and if all goes well, a submissive who likes what she sees, eh?

 

[artful]

Re: Re: Wanderer

Hmm, good point - thank you. I'll have to do a little refocusing.. and besides, if it's not about this woman, I'm sure there'll be another special person in my life down the road - and if all goes well, a submissive who likes what she sees, eh?

I think you have a MUCH clearer picture now. I wish you much success in defining to yourself,... what your needs, wants, and desires are.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Hello again.. new topic, new thread. But thanks to everyone who helped me get a clearer view. For those who saw my other thread (about how to start being a Dom without involving sex), I'm not dating right now - taking time to reevaluate self and make some long-needed changes - but I'm intrigued by the D/s relationship.

I just have to throw this out there... I've always wanted to be with a woman who was truly passionate about her love, but I had never realized just how wild a sub could be, until my roommate talked to me at length about what she would be willing to do for a Dominant man in her life. Sadly, had I figured out how to be that man, I'd not be here tonight..

....ah well...

What I'm wondering about is something she said, about pouting. She told me she would probably get punished for it, and he told her he'd make her go in the other room for it - and she readily admitted this would work, since she would be denied giving affection to her man.

1) I know not all Doms would do so, but why would you punish a sub for pouting? (esp. since she has a GREAT pout! heh)

2) Is denial of affection/attention (but NEVER of love) a fairly common/reasonable punishment? Seemed weird to me, but in a vanilla sense, it's like playing 'hard to get' - and in that light, sure, it seems a little more kosher.

3) I understand fully that the Dom takes the lead, helps his sub explore her limits, helps her (in some cases) find the pleasure she can't unlock herself - but I also realize that a lot of what the Dom is doing is molding behavior, i.e. 'if you pout, you will be punished'. To what end does setting up boundaries enhance the D/s interaction - is it to establish things that can safely be done to bring about disapproval, and thus conform more directly to the Master's wishes?

Thanks in advance for the replies!

What she said! Meaning I meant to post to Shadow's reply, but my hand was quicker than my brain. Of course Dommes do not make mistakes....LOL

Ebony

 

[Little Girl]

Re: Wanderer

I may be completely WRONG in posting this, but I am only trying to help you.

It appears that you are TRYING to mold yourself into an acceptable likeness, as to what this woman has expressed as her needs, wants, and desires.

In doing so,...you will NOT be developing YOURSELF toward YOUR needs, wants, and desires. There IS a BIG difference here.

No one, not a sub, nor a Dom/me, should take it upon themself, to MOLD themself to fit their opposite.

It NEVER works! Many people have tried it, and many people end up wasting away,...TRYING to make their opposite HAPPY.

Believe me,...that's a road many are on,...but they are NOT happy with their trip!

The key to a successful relationship, is to find one who COMPLETES each others needs, wants, and desires.

Best Wishes,...................................Art

Artful

Thank you for the insight here, You are right that molding himself into what he believes I want is not developing himself and with this post of yours I think he finaly understood what I have been trying to explain to him. Though he is my best friend and room mate, I don't see him as a man I want to be dominated by.....

We have spent four years trying to make a relationship work that wasn't and thankfully have managed to salvage a great friendship and I'm afraid if he continues to try and mold himself into what he believes I want and need he will not ever find happiness and fulfillment in his own life.

Again thank you for explaining something I was not having much success with and I do believe it has helped both of us.....

 

[Little Girl]

Re: Not quite the same as pouting but...

I had a hissy fit not so long ago and stamped my foot.

It's a bad habit of mine, one that's been with me all my life. It's the first time I've done it when I've been with Him, though.

I was punished for my behaviour immediately, and was also given an explanation for why such behaviour won't be tolerated.

I won't do it again.

At least, I hope I won't

I am the "pouter" as the case may be and though The Wanderer may find it cute, my Master finds it manipulating and won't stand for it.... I am sure I will try it at least once when he gets home to see what happens, but I am just as sure that once will be all it will take

 

[artful]

Little Girl

Artful

Thank you for the insight here, You are right that molding himself into what he believes I want is not developing himself and with this post of yours I think he finaly understood what I have been trying to explain to him. Though he is my best friend and room mate, I don't see him as a man I want to be dominated by.....

We have spent four years trying to make a relationship work that wasn't and thankfully have managed to salvage a great friendship and I'm afraid if he continues to try and mold himself into what he believes I want and need he will not ever find happiness and fulfillment in his own life.

Again thank you for explaining something I was not having much success with and I do believe it has helped both of us.....

Thanks for the reply. It is rewarding to get positive feedback from you and Wanderer both. I sense you are both intelligent and have much needed patience in communicating with each other.

I have ONE *SPECIAL* woman in my life, but FRIENDS are special in their own right. The friendship that you and he share is special also.

I hope you both can continue that, no matter what else developes in your lives. Your Friend,...Art

 

[Little Girl]

Artful again thank you for the words, he is extremely intellegent and I only want the best for him, but I realize that is not me.

I too have found one man that I believe will have a profound effect on my life (if I can ever convince the AF to send him home) But I want Wanderer to find the kind of happiness and contentment I have found in myself. Only by being comfortable with who I am and what I want and need have I been able to accept that even if I am single I will be in good company....

Wanderer has a lot to offer to the right woman, I'm just not her and I am grateful to all the people here who have taken the time to talk to him and help him understand not only what I am seeking, but what he is seeking as well......

 

[Ebonyfire]

Re: Wanderer

I may be completely WRONG in posting this, but I am only trying to help you.

It appears that you are TRYING to mold yourself into an acceptable likeness, as to what this woman has expressed as her needs, wants, and desires.

In doing so,...you will NOT be developing YOURSELF toward YOUR needs, wants, and desires. There IS a BIG difference here.

No one, not a sub, nor a Dom/me, should take it upon themself, to MOLD themself to fit their opposite.

It NEVER works! Many people have tried it, and many people end up wasting away,...TRYING to make their opposite HAPPY.

Believe me,...that's a road many are on,...but they are NOT happy with their trip!

The key to a successful relationship, is to find one who COMPLETES each others needs, wants, and desires.

Best Wishes,...................................Art

Exactly. Besides that never works because it is next to impossible to change your basic nature. You are who you are. YOu can choose to change some aspects of behaviour but not your basic nature.

So it is best to find someone who is complements your nature not opposes it. That is another reason I, as a Domme choose my subs so very carefully.

Ebony

 

[Ebonyfire]

pouting

can be cute and provocative done in a playful teasing manner... I do not equate pouting as bad behaviour.

BUT

a sub that THINKS I will accept the pouting *word* to describe his or her sulking begins to question My intellect.

Sulking is boring and disrespectful to Me. Removing that distasteful looking face from My presense is as simple as sending her or him from the room or having them keep their displeasing little faces down with eyes to the floor in silence.

Looking inside to see what is causing this unbecoming behaviour because you can bet your boots it will be dissected deeply when I am in the mood to dissect it!

My silence will thunder and the chill in the air will soon cool rebellion. I see sulking as a semi-passive rebellion.

What she said!

Ebony

 

[Persephone36]

Artful again thank you for the words, he is extremely intellegent and I only want the best for him, but I realize that is not me.

I too have found one man that I believe will have a profound effect on my life (if I can ever convince the AF to send him home) But I want Wanderer to find the kind of happiness and contentment I have found in myself. Only by being comfortable with who I am and what I want and need have I been able to accept that even if I am single I will be in good company....

Wanderer has a lot to offer to the right woman, I'm just not her and I am grateful to all the people here who have taken the time to talk to him and help him understand not only what I am seeking, but what he is seeking as well......

Oh it's SO nice to see you posting here Little Girl! I don't think I got a chance to welcome you!

I think it's wonderful that you two have such a special friendship -- as Art pointed out. I've been there (I told Wanderer that) Even when it's had it painful moments -- it's something to be cherished.

But I think it's also great for Wanderer to hear your voice here. It's not an easy situation when feelings between friends are unbalanced. But a strong friendship survives that and grows from it. In fact -- the individual who feels the weakest or least in control -- can discover so much about their true inner strength, even when they face a form rejection. The friendship grows -- and so do the individuals. Trials can makes us find our true selves, if we face them head on. Sounds like both of you have been doing that.

I hope Wanderer finds a woman who is right for him. And I wish you *all* the best with your Dom! Both you and Wanderer obviously have so much to offer others.

And I hope you both keep posting!

P.

 

[Little Girl]

Thank you Persephone36, I know he is searching for himself, he didn't have much of a chance to be himself most of his childhood and early adulthood and I think because I've lived so much in such a short time he found comfort in that. I want to continue to challange him as a friend because he has the potential to do great things in his life. He is by far one of the most intellegent and caring people I have ever met, and I know he will meet a woman who deserves him eventually.

 

[Persephone36]

Thank you Persephone36, I know he is searching for himself, he didn't have much of a chance to be himself most of his childhood and early adulthood and I think because I've lived so much in such a short time he found comfort in that. I want to continue to challange him as a friend because he has the potential to do great things in his life. He is by far one of the most intellegent and caring people I have ever met, and I know he will meet a woman who deserves him eventually.

Please call me Perse or Persy.

I can see that you're both good loyal friends to each other -- and that you admire and respect one another quite a lot. That's a special relationship -- and I think it shows that you can both be there for each other -- support each others growth as individuals in finding your true selves. Great to hear two people care about each other that much. And I know genuinely what it's like, I have a similar relationship with my closest friend who's a man.


P.