Second person narrative

[dogpak]

Does anyone else hate this form of narrative where the author refers to characters as 'you'? I can't read them. It's not me, particularly if the story is about someone of the opposite sex. I don't understand why it's used so much in literotica when it's rare in published literature.

 

[Lindsay_O]

"You" stories are still first person.

 

[AwkwardMD]

"You" stories are still first person.

Wrong, but thank you for playing.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Does anyone else hate this form of narrative where the author refers to characters as 'you'? I can't read them. It's not me, particularly if the story is about someone of the opposite sex. I don't understand why it's used so much in literotica when it's rare in published literature.

The idea is for it to be an immersive experience for the reader. Published fiction rarely wants the reader to experience the narrative as tangibly as eroric fiction does, so the disconnect is understandable.

The problem is in execution and trying to overcome a readers suspension of disbelief. When you tell a reader something about a character, they accept it. When you tell the reader something about themselves, even something innocuous like "you've just come home from work", it can be disconcerting to try to accept as true when it isn't.

 

[sr71plt]

Wrong, but thank you for playing.

Most of the "you" stories folks here identify as second person at Literotica, are, in fact, first person. They are told from the 1st-person perspective (e.g., "I see you across the room. You take off your blouse." That's still from first-person perspective. It's in the mind of the "I"). Nearly every claimed "second person" story I've looked at from this board in the last twelve years has actually been first person. So Lindsay is more right than wrong on this point (although not fully right).

 

[AwkwardMD]

The OP's gripe is with second person narrative, not with second person being written poorly and incorrectly.

 

[sr71plt]

Does anyone else hate this form of narrative where the author refers to characters as 'you'? I can't read them. It's not me, particularly if the story is about someone of the opposite sex. I don't understand why it's used so much in literotica when it's rare in published literature.

As already noted, what I find hard in reading the "you" identification stories is that most of them are unrealized attempts at second person. They remain in the first person and just unnecessarily belabor that perspective in failing to be something else. Beyond that, true second person (everything observed from the mind of the "you") is very difficult to maintain and also can quickly become belabored. It can be done, though. I publish a mainstream short story anthology and this year received a story that both maintains the second person and doesn't belabor it--so it's possible. Usually it's unnecessary for the story, though, so it irritates.

You probably hate it because it can easily become intrusive and awkward, which is as a good a reason to hate as any.

 

[sr71plt]

The OP's gripe is with second person narrative, not with second person being written poorly and incorrectly.

And I think Lindsay got it more right than wrong and I said so--and why.

The gripe is wrapped up in it usually not being second perspective at all, which is what Lindsay was getting at.

 

[AwkwardMD]

And I think Lindsay got it more right than wrong and I said so--and why.

The gripe is wrapped up in it usually not being second perspective at all, which is what Lindsay was getting at.

YOUR gripe is wrapped up in the technical inadequacy of other writers. The OP's gripe is caught up in being told things about his or herself that are patently untrue ("Your cock gets hard"/"But I don't have a cock").

 

[tomlitilia]

Does anyone else hate this form of narrative where the author refers to characters as 'you'? I can't read them. It's not me, particularly if the story is about someone of the opposite sex. I don't understand why it's used so much in literotica when it's rare in published literature.

I always stop reading the moment I (denoted you) enter the story. I know what I've done, and it's never what the story suggests.

 

[AwkwardMD]

And I think Lindsay got it more right than wrong and I said so--and why.

The gripe is wrapped up in it usually not being second perspective at all, which is what Lindsay was getting at.

I love how all of our arguments boil down to the fact that I have an objectivist mindset (there are many certain and concrete truths about the world) and you have a post-modernist mindset (truth is relative, and there are no hard truths).

To you, enough people writing second person wrong constitutes context where even if the author really means second person, you're going to tke them to task for something completely unrelated to their original statement. To you, 50 million Elvis fans can't be wrong.

To me, it doesn't matter how many people misuse second person. That doesn't doesn't change the theoretical distinction between second and first person. To me, 50 million people mistakenly thinking currently and presently are synonymous does not make them synonymous.

P.S. I don't actually love that. That was sarcasm.

 

[sr71plt]

YOUR gripe is wrapped up in the technical inadequacy of other writers. The OP's gripe is caught up in being told things about his or herself that are patently untrue ("Your cock gets hard"/"But I don't have a cock").

Your gripe is that I commented at all and stepped on your not fully supported slam at Lindsay.

I stand by my observation on the "in most cases" misunderstanding of second person perspective here at Literotica--which was, I think, Lindsay's point as well. And I think you are reading intent in the OP that isn't there.

I've made the points I wanted to make now.

 

[thewinedarksea]

Just one writer's take here. I write lots of 1st person and 3rd person, but don't like "You" narratives (whether told in true 1st or 2nd person).

They don't work for me for a specific reason. Stories work because the author conjures images, a world, a scenario, and you fall into it with your imagination filling in the gaps. When the author says "you", it fails because the author doesn't know anything about me, and my imagination smashes headlong into my contrary thoughts and knowledge about who I am. I can't suspend disbelief enough.

I wouldn't take off my dress in that manner. I might touch myself in that place, but I wouldn't touch myself in that way.

In my experience, the only time "you" narratives work for me is when I am saying them directly to a partner while they masturbate, or vice versa.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Don't You Think?

Your gripe is that I commented at all and stepped on your not fully supported slam at Lindsay.

I stand by my observation on the "in most cases" misunderstanding of second person perspective here at Literotica--which was, I hope, Lindsay's point as well. And I think you are reading intent in the OP that isn't there.

I've made the points I wanted to make now.

Fixed. Unless you're Pilot and Keith AND Lindsey. That would make all your bitching about Freddie pretty ironic.

 

[Lindsay_O]

Thanks Sr71. Awkward is a troll anyway.

 

[AwkwardMD]

Thanks Sr71. Awkward is a troll anyway.

Wrong, but thank you for playing.

 

[ElectricBlue]

They don't work for me for a specific reason. Stories work because the author conjures images, a world, a scenario, and you fall into it with your imagination filling in the gaps. When the author says "you", it fails because the author doesn't know anything about me, and my imagination smashes headlong into my contrary thoughts and knowledge about who I am. I can't suspend disbelief enough.

Agree this. For me, fifty percent of second person narratives stumble out of the gate on gender alone. If "you" is male, the story's got half a chance, but then it's got to get me on a day when I might do the things being suggested. Which I probably wouldn't.

The other fifty percent stumble, suggesting I'm a woman, doing things... Such a story has lost me immediately, because, no, my breasts don't sway in a bra, I don't have a vagina.

Seems to me an unnecessarily hard stumbling block to get over, narrative wise.

I'm not quite sure how this works, but I don't have the same struggle with first person written from a woman's perspective - perhaps I'm more willing to suspend disbelief when I don't have someone telling me I'm doing stuff I know I'm not doing.

 

[SimonDoom]

I think Lindsay O is, for all intents and purposes, correct: all the so-called second person POV stories people talk about here are, in fact, first person POV stories, where the narrator "I" is addressing someone "you." That's first person POV, not second person. True second person is very rare (and, yes, annoying).

The only true 2d person POV novel I've ever read (that I can remember) is Jay McInerny's Bright Light's Big City, which I am sure was written that way precisely to be provocative and catch people's attention.

Second person POV is:

You walk to the door, and you open it. Your girlfriend stands there. You kiss her.

1st person POV is:

I walk to the door, and I open it. You stand there. I kiss you.

The second example is, as far as I can tell, what people are talking about when they talk about second person on this site. But it's really first person. I can't think of any examples of second person on this site, off the top of my head.

 

[sr71plt]

Second person POV is:

You walk to the door, and you open it. Your girlfriend stands there. You kiss her.

The clearest view of second person (and probably the best way it can be tolerated) pushes it a bit farther than this. It should explicitly be in the head of the "You."

You've got butterflies in your stomach as you hear the knock on the door. You thought you'd blown it the last time you were with Maggie. You go to the door, your hand shaking as you open it. Maggie stands there. She touches your hand with hers and a chill runs up your spine. How could you ever have questioned her the way you did the other night? You lean into her and kiss her.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I think Lindsay O is, for all intents and purposes, correct: all the so-called second person POV stories people talk about here are, in fact, first person POV stories, where the narrator "I" is addressing someone "you."

I've written second person properly, ergo no. Not all.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've written second person properly, ergo no. Not all.

Here? What's the name of the story?

I should have known better than to use the word "all." I'm confident that "most" is correct, given what I've seen on these forums about "second person" in general.

 

[AwkwardMD]

The ASMRtist. Several scenes are done in the second person style in an attempt to "write" an ASMR-style video.

 

[sr71plt]

I think the only circumstance in which I'd use second person is if I was experimenting with a story where I didn't want the gender known--either not throughout the story, or not until revealed at the end, or making the reader do a doubletake that they assumed it was one and it turned out to be the other. It would be difficult for me to do that for erotica, since gender is so important. I did a first-person POV run at this some years ago, though.

 

[SimonDoom]

I've written second person properly, ergo no. Not all.

I think maybe I found it. Are you referring to The ASMRtist Ch. 1? That story starts in true second person, but later it shifts to third person POV, which is an interesting shift of POV. I've just scanned it, rather than read it, but it looks interesting. From what I can tell, you have a legitimate and unusual artistic/narrative reason to use second-person POV in that story, because of the AMSR.

Never mind. You answered the question right before I posted.

 

[AwkwardMD]

I think maybe I found it. Are you referring to The ASMRtist Ch. 1? That story starts in true second person, but later it shifts to third person POV, which is an interesting shift of POV. I've just scanned it, rather than read it, but it looks interesting. From what I can tell, you have a legitimate and unusual artistic/narrative reason to use second-person POV in that story, because of the AMSR.

Never mind. You answered the question right before I posted.

Yes. Thank you. It turned out pretty good, imo.