Science Nerd question - is transmutation possible?

[Roxanne Appleby]

Suns do it - why can't we? Oh, I don't mean right now. I assume it would require a fusion reactor at the very least, plus maybe other things that are not possible in an earthly environment. But, in the next 10,000 years or so, is it plausible that we could obtain this godlike power to turn iron into gold, or aluminum into uranium, or whatever the logical progression would be? Just wondering.

 

[Weird Harold]

Suns do it - why can't we? Oh, I don't mean right now. I assume it would require a fusion reactor at the very least, plus maybe other things that are not possible in an earthly environment. But, in the next 10,000 years or so, is it plausible that we could obtain this godlike power to turn iron into gold, or aluminum into uranium, or whatever the logical progression would be? Just wondering.

We can do it -- Lead into Gold, for example, happens in fission reactors.

We just can't do it economically; IIRC, Isaac Asimov estimated (in on of his "popular science" essays) the cost of transmuting one ounce of Lead into Gold would be more than the cost of refining every ounce of gold ever mined.

Some elements wouldn't exist without transmutation -- Plutonium and all of the other "trans-uranics" aren't naturally occuring elements.

 

[DerelictionOfSanity]

For the most part it occurs naturally (usually in the nuclei of stars, where there are huge amounts of energy available). Theoretically, with a limitless source of energy (and proper containment), you could transmute any element into another, but I wouldn't expect it to become practical for humanity at any point.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Interesting thought, Roxanne. There should be a story there somewhere. Now how do we work a twenty guy gang bang into it?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Interesting thought, Roxanne. There should be a story there somewhere. Now how do we work a twenty guy gang bang into it?

Actually, R.A. Heinlein wrote a story about that, in a way. No it didn't have a gangbang in it, but did have transmutation of elements from on to another.

I believe it was called "The Sixth Column".

The US was invaded by the Pan Asian Confederacy and a group of scientists and an ad man, who just happened to be a officer in the US Army, were hold up in this secret base in the Rocky Mountains...

Well you get the gist...they discovered how to transmute elements, force fields, tractor beam and replusor beams, yada, yada....

 

[Boxlicker101]

Off the subject a bit, but coal can be transformed into diamonds by applying enough pressure. Superman used to do it sometimes, and the method he used is similar. Just apply enough pressure. However, the diamonds are so flawed as to be almost worthless.

 

[FatDino]

Off the subject a bit, but coal can be transformed into diamonds by applying enough pressure. Superman used to do it sometimes, and the method he used is similar. Just apply enough pressure. However, the diamonds are so flawed as to be almost worthless.

Yes, coal can be transformed into diamonds under extremely high pressure and temperature, but that's because they're both made of carbon molecules. Transmutation that Rox is asking about is changing one substance to another that has a completely different subatomic structure. Lead is made of lead atoms, which have 82 protons in each atom, while gold atoms only 79 protons. The process can only be done by removing the excess protons and neutrons and this requires an incredibly high energy input. Theoretically, the sun is an energy source that is powerful enough to carry out such reactions, but the ultimate question is, how can we put in the reactants...left alone collecting the end products...in a mass level?

 

[Lisa Denton]

Suns do it - why can't we? Oh, I don't mean right now. I assume it would require a fusion reactor at the very least, plus maybe other things that are not possible in an earthly environment. But, in the next 10,000 years or so, is it plausible that we could obtain this godlike power to turn iron into gold, or aluminum into uranium, or whatever the logical progression would be? Just wondering.

It is an interesting question, like right now the trash-can near the back door is full, and it would be nice to turn that trash into fresh batteries for the TV remote control.

Can I borrow somebodies fusion reactor?

 

[Lee Chambers]

I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall from chemistry class waaay back when that transmutation is possible. However, looking at the periodic table, you can only transmute forward. You can't reverse the process. So you could turn platinum into gold, per se, but you cannot turn gold back into platinum.

I could be mistake. Like I said, it's been awhile since my last chemistry class. I would suggest contacting a local chemistry teacher, I'm sure they could answer the question for you.

 

[FatDino]

I may be wrong about this, but I seem to recall from chemistry class waaay back when that transmutation is possible. However, looking at the periodic table, you can only transmute forward. You can't reverse the process. So you could turn platinum into gold, per se, but you cannot turn gold back into platinum.

I could be mistake. Like I said, it's been awhile since my last chemistry class. I would suggest contacting a local chemistry teacher, I'm sure they could answer the question for you.

It's actually the other way around.

Transmutation is a fission reaction, it breaks big molecules into smaller ones, therefore, it can only be done "backward" following the periodic table. That is why lead can be transformed into gold, because lead atoms contain more protons than gold atoms.

 

[Lee Chambers]

It's actually the other way around.

Transmutation is a fission reaction, it breaks big molecules into smaller ones, therefore, it can only be done "backward" following the periodic table. That is why lead can be transformed into gold, because lead atoms contain more protons than gold atoms.

See, I knew there was a reason I was never good at chemistry.

 

[FatDino]

See, I knew there was a reason I was never good at chemistry.

We have a few chemists here at the AH. And no, I'm so not one of them.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

Yes, coal can be transformed into diamonds under extremely high pressure and temperature, but that's because they're both made of carbon molecules. Transmutation that Rox is asking about is changing one substance to another that has a completely different subatomic structure. Lead is made of lead atoms, which have 82 protons in each atom, while gold atoms only 79 protons. The process can only be done by removing the excess protons and neutrons and this requires an incredibly high energy input. Theoretically, the sun is an energy source that is powerful enough to carry out such reactions, but the ultimate question is, how can we put in the reactants...left alone collecting the end products...in a mass level?

Make a super duper magnetic bottle in space, put a bunch of iron in, and set off a thermonuclear explosion inside. Or 100 of them. Probably a few details to be worked out there , but something like that.

Dino, are you sure about the direction of tranmutation? Because I'm pretty sure everything started off as hydrogen after the big bang (although I'm not quite that old), and worked it's way up the table by passing through sun cores.

 

[3113]

Dino, are you sure about the direction of tranmutation? Because I'm pretty sure everything started off as hydrogen after the big bang (although I'm not quite that old), and worked it's way up the table by passing through sun cores.

It's called Nucleosynthesis.

Stellar nucleosynthesis occurs in stars during the process of stellar evolution. It is responsible for generation of elements from carbon to calcium by nuclear fusion processes. Stars are the nuclear furnaces in which H and He are fused into heavier nuclei. Of particular importance is carbon, because its formation from He is a bottleneck in the entire process. Carbon is also the main element used in the production of free neutrons within the stars, giving rise to the s process which involves the slow absorption of neutrons to produce elements heavier than iron and nickel (57Fe and 62Ni).

Essentially, you're right for elements on the lower end of the scale, but higher elements are created by the sun in explosive nucleosynthesis: i.e. supernova explosions ("supernova nucleosynthesis...produces the elements heavier than iron by an intense burst of nuclear reactions that typically last but seconds during the explosion of the supernova core. In explosive environments of supernovae, the elements between silicon and nickel are synthesized by fast fusion"). And that's a little harder to re-create in a reactor

By the way, there are all different and interesting kids of "transmutation" (theories at least) including Biological which postulates a nuclear transformation within living things and...wait for it...sexual which is about finding spiritual enlightenment via sex

 

[FatDino]

Make a super duper magnetic bottle in space, put a bunch of iron in, and set off a thermonuclear explosion inside. Or 100 of them. Probably a few details to be worked out there , but something like that.

The problem is we can't contain the energy blast from the explosion with our current technology. And unless human will witness some incredibly amazing jump in quantum physics, I don't think we'll be able to make transmutation work on an economic level in the next 100 years, at least.

Dino, are you sure about the direction of tranmutation? Because I'm pretty sure everything started off as hydrogen after the big bang (although I'm not quite that old), and worked it's way up the table by passing through sun cores.

What 3113 said, Rox. To artificially re-create the environment in which nucleosynthesis occurred during and after Big Bang is too difficult and expensive to carry out.

In 2001, TRIUMF, Canada's leading facility in the field of supernova studying, introduced a device called the Isotope Separator and Accelerator (ISAC). It cost $18 million to create this device, and another half million to get it work. Over the course of one day, they had let 8 trillion sodium-21 (a radioactive isotope of sodium-23) collide with hydrogen inside the device in an environment similar to when a sun supernovas. After one day, three atoms of magnesium-22 (also a radioactive isotope, but of magnesium-24) were created. And these atoms immediately decayed back into sodium and hydrogen atoms.

The study did help scientists understand a lot more about supernovae, but it also showed that without much more advanced technology, we couldn't recreate a supernova environment big enough and isolated enough to transmute matters economically.

 

[R. Richard]

Make a super duper magnetic bottle in space, put a bunch of iron in, and set off a thermonuclear explosion inside. Or 100 of them. Probably a few details to be worked out there , but something like that.

Dino, are you sure about the direction of tranmutation? Because I'm pretty sure everything started off as hydrogen after the big bang (although I'm not quite that old), and worked it's way up the table by passing through sun cores.

Iron is probably not a good example. Iron is at the bottom of the packing fraction curve and is not really the place to start for either fission or fusion.

 

[Weird Harold]

It's actually the other way around.

Transmutation is a fission reaction, it breaks big molecules into smaller ones, therefore, it can only be done "backward" following the periodic table.

Actually, Fusion AND Fission both "transmute" one element into one or more other elements.

 

[FatDino]

Actually, Fusion AND Fission both "transmute" one element into one or more other elements.

Yes, but transmutation by fusion is so much harder to carry out than fission.

 

[ABSTRUSE]

This is so cool, I wish it would stop going over my head.

 

[FatDino]

This is so cool, I wish it would stop going over my head.

Stop hijacking, go away. *kicks Absy's butt*

 

[ABSTRUSE]

Stop hijacking, go away. *kicks Absy's butt*

Science nerd

 

[FatDino]

Science nerd

As long as there are people who find me hot, I'm fine with being a nerd.

Stop hijacking or I'll force you to sit behind me on my scooter.

 

[damppanties]

As long as there are people who find me hot, I'm fine with being a nerd.

*ahem*

You called?

 

[FatDino]

*ahem*

You called?

Dunno, were your ears ringing?

I'm not guilty of any of this threadjacking, I started none of them.

 

[damppanties]

Dunno, were your ears ringing?

I'm not guilty of any of this threadjacking, I started none of them.

Well, I heard you saying sexy stuff... it was like a siren call...