Science Lies!

[WRJames]

For those of you with great faith in science, a cautionary tale. A panel of medical "experts" has ignored the facts so badly that they have provoked legal action by the Connecticut Attorney General. Here is the press release. This is not a trivial matter -- this group established guidelines for the treatment of Lyme disease that were simply wrong -- with very serious consequences. Doctors who defied these "expert" guidelines had their licences suspended. One was hounded to suicide. Patients suffered -- and insurance companies did not pay.

Which just goes to show that having a bunch of eminent scientists proclaim that something is true does not guarantee it. How many other scientific "truths" are wrapped up in the politics and egotism of human interaction?

Of course, religion takes a lot of heat on this forum for the same reasons -- but let's not forget that scientists are human beings, subject to the same failings that may obscure their objectivity.

 

[Stella_Omega]

Yes, individual scientists can be wrong-- and they can adhere to a wrong theory their entire lives. Science as a body is very much aware of that, it's happened over and over again. The process of theory is long and arduous and sometimes violent...

The facts of Lyme disease and antibiotics were known long before 2006. you can certainly blame the insurance companies for neglecting their own due diligence But the fact that the changes are being made 2 years later is an example of the way science self-corrects.

Contrast that, if you will, to the pronouncements of religious figures; The Pope, Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith.

Only in religion, are authority figures presumed to tell the Truth and their flock expected to swallow that Truth. And really, this training in religion is part of the problem with people who believe whatever "expert" pundit comes to their attention first. The words "put great faith in science" in this context speak of a religious foundation, not a scientific one.

Your post title should have been "Scientists lied!"

 

[DesertPirate]

Gee I wonder if that explains why an old Navy shipmate had a heart attack at 38 and 49 with no damage at all. The DR finally figured out both were Lyme related. He lives in CT.

 

[WRJames]

Yes, individual scientists can be wrong-- and they can adhere to a wrong theory their entire lives. Science as a body is very much aware of that, it's happened over and over again. The process of theory is long and arduous and sometimes violent...

The facts of Lyme disease and antibiotics were known long before 2006. you can certainly blame the insurance companies for neglecting their own due diligence But the fact that the changes are being made 2 years later is an example of the way science self-corrects.

Contrast that, if you will, to the pronouncements of religious figures; The Pope, Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith.

Only in religion, are authority figures presumed to tell the Truth and their flock expected to swallow that Truth. And really, this training in religion is part of the problem with people who believe whatever "expert" pundit comes to their attention first. The words "put great faith in science" in this context speak of a religious foundation, not a scientific one.

Your post title should have been "Scientists lied!"

The thing that makes this so egregious is not that they were individual scientists lying, or being misguided -- they deliberately wrapped themselves in the mantle of scientific authority, as solemnly as the Pope -- and persecuted heretics who dared to question their official truth.

 

[Carnevil9]

......Which just goes to show that having a bunch of eminent scientists proclaim that something is true does not guarantee it. How many other scientific "truths" are wrapped up in the politics and egotism of human interaction?......

Good point. Just think of all those scientists who proclaim that "global warming" is both real, and man-made.

Probably the same scientists who, in the 1970s, preached about the coming ice age. Anyone here old enough to remember that one? What a hoot!......Carney

 

[Guest]

Good point. Just think of all those scientists who proclaim that "global warming" is both real, and man-made.

Probably the same scientists who, in the 1970s, preached about the coming ice age. Anyone here old enough to remember that one? What a hoot!......Carney

Wow.

I'm going to have another drink rather than bother to engage this nonsense.

 

[TE999]

When the first railroads began operation in the early 18th Century, 'experts' determined that no person could survive riding at the blazing speed of 20mph.

The air would be sucked from their lungs and they would suffocate.

It's no different today. Conjecture, insufficient research and faulty reasoning rules.

 

[Guest]

When the first railroads began operation in the early 18th Century, 'experts' determined that no person could survive riding at the blazing speed of 20mph.

The air would be sucked from their lungs and they would suffocate.

It's no different today. Conjecture, insufficient research and faulty reasoning rules.

Want some rum?

We should discuss this at great length.

 

[TE999]

Want some rum?

We should discuss this at great length.

Why sure sweetie.

And with such a lovely lady to discuss things with, it will take a good while.

 

[Guest]

Why sure sweetie.

And with such a lovely lady to discuss things with, it will take a good while.

Oh, good.

Our Chicago time was limited.

 

[WRJames]

Wow.

I'm going to have another drink rather than bother to engage this nonsense.

At least read the link -- I think you will be shocked. And really, that's just the tip of the iceberg on this one.

 

[Guest]

At least read the link -- I think you will be shocked. And really, that's just the tip of the iceberg on this one.

I did.

There are problems, no question. With people, not with science.

And Bush has had a serious hand in limiting scientific discovery these past few years.

More rum?

 

[TE999]

Oh, good.

Our Chicago time was limited.

Regrettably so. I found it nigh well impossible to penetrate the crowd around you.

In 09 we're gonna have a drink together, maybe more than one.

For now, pour me another glass por favor.

 

[S-Des]

It's no different today. Conjecture, insufficient research and faulty reasoning rules.

You forgot to mention bias due to the source of funding. We're going to find out a lot in the next 10 years about people who've manipulated science to be treated like rock stars.

 

[WRJames]

You forgot to mention bias due to the source of funding. We're going to find out a lot in the next 10 years about people who've manipulated science to be treated like rock stars.

Just to get funded at all means that a scientist needs to stay "in bounds"

 

[TE999]

You forgot to mention bias due to the source of funding. We're going to find out a lot in the next 10 years about people who've manipulated science to be treated like rock stars.

Quite so. More often than not study conclusions are predetermined and data is gathered to 'prove' it.

Think cigarette co's, chemical co's, mining co's, drug co's ad nauseum.

What's good for you is bad and vice versa.

 

[S-Des]

Just to get funded at all means that a scientist needs to stay "in bounds"

I still remember when it was revealed that the scientist who was behind many of the "salt is bad for you" studies had based his entire career by proving his original hypothesis (at a cost of millions to the taxpayers). Any scientist on any issue can be corrupted. The public tends to believe the science that proves what they already think. I don't equate this with the dark ages or anything, but there is corruption on an precedented scale.

 

[Stella_Omega]

The thing that makes this so egregious is not that they were individual scientists lying, or being misguided -- they deliberately wrapped themselves in the mantle of scientific authority, as solemnly as the Pope -- and persecuted heretics who dared to question their official truth.

Yes. the mantle of scientific authority.

I keep on saying this-- if children spent as much time in a science sunday school as they do in bible class, fewer of these propagandists would be able to fuddle the public. It's just incredible to me the folk I meet who can quote hundreds of chapters and verses at the drop of a hat, but who solemnly tell me that science is just too darn complicated and they will never understand it.

 

[glynndah]

When the first railroads began operation in the early 18th Century, 'experts' determined that no person could survive riding at the blazing speed of 20mph.

The air would be sucked from their lungs and they would suffocate.

But that's true, Tom. Everyone knows that.

 

[neonlyte]

For those of you with great faith in science, a cautionary tale. A panel of medical "experts" has ignored the facts so badly that they have provoked legal action by the Connecticut Attorney General. Here is the press release. This is not a trivial matter -- this group established guidelines for the treatment of Lyme disease that were simply wrong -- with very serious consequences. Doctors who defied these "expert" guidelines had their licences suspended. One was hounded to suicide. Patients suffered -- and insurance companies did not pay.

Which just goes to show that having a bunch of eminent scientists proclaim that something is true does not guarantee it. How many other scientific "truths" are wrapped up in the politics and egotism of human interaction?

Of course, religion takes a lot of heat on this forum for the same reasons -- but let's not forget that scientists are human beings, subject to the same failings that may obscure their objectivity.

Thank you for this. As some of you know, I've been suffering from late-diagnosed Lyme for several years. The ISDA guidelines - now ordered by the CAG to be peer reviewed - have been treated as gospel on both sides of the Atlantic depriving patients from receiving proper care despite manifest evidence of patient illness.

The problem with setting yourselves as a 'panel of experts' is your proclamation becomes accepted as fact, medical practitioner variation from ISDA guidelines would have left them exposed to legal claim - hence medical practitioners ignore the patients symptoms and prescribe in accordance with ISDA guidelines now shown to have been manipulated to produce an certain outcome subsequently reinforced by the American Association of Neurologists who it now appears shared the same panel members as ISDA.

As a person whose lived for three years suffering treatment under the exposed ISDA guidelines, I find the jokes in this thread offensive.

 

[rgraham666]

Science lies only if you believe it has anything to do with truth. Which it doesn't. It has to do with learning and understanding.

If I was going to blame anything I would blame our society's worship of expertise. We've raised experts to the status of priests so that when they speak, we assume they are speaking the Truth when really, they're just speaking the faith.

 

[patrick1]

scepticism rules ko

I think we should be wary of great mental leaps here. The discrediting of a group of the medical great and good in preparing guidelines about a contentious medical diagnosis does not undermine relativity, gravity or, indeed, climate change science.

The practice of medicine is often grounded in science but in itself it's an art.

It's actually very difficult to assemble a bunch of medically knowledgeable people without some of them having some financial connection to a vested interest. But those who appoint them should try harder to do so, otherwise 'evidence' is bound to be tainted.

I don't see that we can draw any bigger conclusions than that from this case. But obviously I write from a European perspective, where these guidelines don't apply, but where, as I understand it, the mainstream medical viewpoint is similar but not universal.

patrick

 

[Emerald_Dragon]

I think the problem arises when scientists seek being right over being open minded and seeking the truth.

I had a friend that was being treated for a genetic problem with her liver. Her doctor was involved in research and a study for this particular problem. Match made in heaven you say? Not really. He gave her half doses of medication and carefully tracked her as her symptoms as they got worse (this prob is eventually fatal). She eventually got a second opinion and that doctor was horrified at what was going on. The first doc got oh so sued and lost his licence to practice medicine.

I think he just lost site of what he should have been doing, which is help the patient as much as possible.

A 'cure' shouldn't stop the search for alternative treatments and ways to improve what you have.

Lyme's is nothing to mess with, it is beyond nasty when left untreated, or treated incorrectly in the case of the doctors who were blinded by the attitude of I know best even when I am an idiot.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Scientists, by and large, and no different from clergy, bureaucrats, military, union workers, or any member of a cartel. The history of the world proves that if you want infamy and abuse heaped upon you, build a better mousetrap.

 

[jomar]

The practice of medicine is often grounded in science but in itself it's an art.

Yes. The practice of medicine is filtered science. Doctors in one town treat symptoms this way, while in the next town over they treat them that way. A research based best practices approach should dictate no difference in treatment. This has been studied and documented.