Save The Internet!

[BiBunny]

Save the internet!

And my job. Especially my job.

Also Lit. And probably nearly every other site you visit and enjoy.

 

[Keroin]

Save the internet!

And my job. Especially my job.

Also Lit. And probably nearly every other site you visit and enjoy.

Hm. I'm of two minds here. I like the freedom of the Internet. It's opened up a lot of doors for people who would normally be helpless beneath the weight and power of "big business".

On the other hand, I am someone who gets ripped off every day by pirates. When people illegally download movies or TV shows, they don't think about people like me, who literally bled for the right to earn a living from them. I already lose out on about 75% of the royalties I should be earning thanks to unscrupulous producers who just don't bother reporting as they're supposed to. And now it's easy as pie to get copyrighted entertainment for free.

Sooooo... I don't know.

The ambiguous language is concerning. But I dislike the notion that my legal rights are less important than creative freedom. And if I'm lucky enough to see my novel published, should anyone just be allowed to steal it?

I don't know. It's a murky issue for me.

 

[BiBunny]

Hm. I'm of two minds here. I like the freedom of the Internet. It's opened up a lot of doors for people who would normally be helpless beneath the weight and power of "big business".

On the other hand, I am someone who gets ripped off every day by pirates. When people illegally download movies or TV shows, they don't think about people like me, who literally bled for the right to earn a living from them. I already lose out on about 75% of the royalties I should be earning thanks to unscrupulous producers who just don't bother reporting as they're supposed to. And now it's easy as pie to get copyrighted entertainment for free.

Sooooo... I don't know.

The ambiguous language is concerning. But I dislike the notion that my legal rights are less important than creative freedom. And if I'm lucky enough to see my novel published, should anyone just be allowed to steal it?

I don't know. It's a murky issue for me.

My problem with it is that entire websites can be shut down with just an accusation. Not proof. Just an accusation. As someone who makes the entirety of her living off the Internet, that is NOT ok.

 

[Keroin]

My problem with it is that entire websites can be shut down with just an accusation. Not proof. Just an accusation. As someone who makes the entirety of her living off the Internet, that is NOT ok.

Well obviously that's not good. I just wish I saw the same fervent protests over those who steal from me and folks like me. I never have and doubt I ever will.

Anyway, since its a US issue, I don't think I have a voice in the matter anyway. Do I?

 

[DVS]

This is just like banning guns. The old saying "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns" goes right along with this. It won't stop pirating that really cuts into the profits of copyrighted material, it will only stop the little guys. The big cats will always find ways to continue their practice, because they have the network to make it happen.

It's also like when Sony made their DVDs write protected. They also made most everything they made to include some little chip that talked to other stuff they owned, making it impossible to make copies of their products. In theory that is OK, because they should have the right to keep all profits, but in actuality, their process only caused problems for the consumer.

Some DVDs wouldn't play in some players because the chip thought that person was trying to make a copy. All they wanted to do was play the DVD, but the chip was in charge. I remember just recently when I needed a new DVD player/recorder. I work nights, so I record things on DVDRW that are on during the time I'm sleeping, so I want to watch them later. I've done that for years...even when the DVDRs were VCRs. I then delete everything and start for the next day.

Anyway, just about a year ago, I went out to purchase a new DVDR. I shopped around and because Sony is considered a good company, I purchased a Sony DVDR. For the most part, it worked fine, but there were times when the screen would go black and a message that said "unable to record copyrighted material" was all I could see. After a few minutes, the screen would come back. I thought it was a glitch, but it happened off and on, without any real pattern. And the strange part of it all was there wasn't anything that couldn't be recorded, because I was on a FREE broadcast TV station.

Sometimes, it would be in the middle of a program, and sometimes it would be during a commercial. Like I said, there was no real pattern. And I didn't even have to be recording anything for it to happen. It was something in the DVDR that was doing it. It felt a little like "Big Brother" to me.

I took the unit back, explaining to the store what it did. I said I thought the unit was otherwise fine, but there must be something wrong with the chip inside that was making it malfunction. They let me get another one, just like the one I had...new, in the box, untouched by store personnel...straight from the Sony factory. I got it home and guess what? It did the very same thing.

I thought I had a run of malfunctioning units. I went back to the store, told them the deal and I got another unit, but from a different manufacturer. I'm still using that product, because it didn't do anything like the two Sony units I had. After some thought, I decided that Sony tried to put something in the units to stop recording their copyrighted property, and it was not working correctly.

It reminded me of Microsoft and the products they put out. They know the world is so entrenched in their software that they can have the public at large do their final beta testing. Then, after a while, they put out a large download that's suppose to fix all of the little glitches that the public found. They are in such a hurry to get their return on the new version of something, that they do this on a regular basis.

I think Sony was doing the same thing. They were so beside themselves that their copyrighted products were being stolen that they tried to put mass produced units into the mainstream to stop it. They knew they had total control over their units. Once they got the chip to work in their products, these chips would eventually end up in other manufacturer's machines. All it has really done for me is stop me from buying anything made by Sony. I don't even buy their DVDRWs any more.

It's a slippery slope. It sounds OK, because the marketing wants you to believe that. But, with all of the problems that it will cause, the Internet won't be safe for the normal consumer. And massive companies like Sony would be in charge. God, the world would come to an end. Sony and Microsoft would be the two ways we get access to the WWW. Think of how buggy your Microsoft browser is now. There will be so many issues with spam, viruses, lost links, signing your privacy away so you can watch something that's restricted viewing, etc. It would be a nightmare.

I'm a musician and I understand the copyrighting issue. I know there are people out there who download songs and don't pay the artist a thin penny. In fact, they boast about what they do. I used to work with people who download movies all the time. These guys were just basic idiots, but they knew the web site to get the necessary decoding software. Sure, they get the movie for free, but that's not the the thrill for them. The big thrill is they can tell their friends that they got it for free.

I don't know the first thing about how to download a song or movie for free. I'm not a techno challenged person, I just prefer to spend my technical time doing other things. But, if this thing passes, I could end up with the same nightmare everybody else would be going through. The Internet would totally change...TOTALLY. It would be big daddy Sony and all of the other major motion picture houses controlling it.

Frankly, big deal enterprises like Sony aren't hurting. It's the little guys, the musicians, actors, screen writers, prop masters...all of the behind the scenes people who are getting hurt. The big companies still get their profit. But what they do get, they don't share with the little guys. What they don't get causes the Sony employees to suffer.

I know there's a problem with pirating, but this isn't the way to fix it. Sorry, I'm just not a trusting person, when big companies are involved. They have way too much money behind them to be telling us the whole story. We'll get screwed in this deal. Trust me.

Sorry for the tirade.

 

[YourCaptor]

I say fuck intellectual property, information should be free.

People can’t be property, wasn’t too long ago that they disagreed with that idea too.

I just see a bunch of lazy suits trying to buy laws in order to stagnate progress for the purpose of minimize risks to their money.

K could be getting her royalties if Hollywood would keep up with the times and try some innovation.

But no, let’s all pretend we still live in them good old times without the internets.

 

[BiBunny]

I agree with DVS and YC. I'm just too lazy at the moment to take that any farther.

 

[Keroin]

I say fuck intellectual property, information should be free.

So if I spend 2 years, without pay, 7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, writing a novel, (not to mention the years before that I spent learning and honing the craft), then go through all the effort of finding an agent, publisher, etc, I should just give it away and...what? Make nothing?

So the work of artists is worth nothing?

Good Cod, most barely get by as it is.

Sorry YC, that's about the most ignorant statement I've heard in awhile. How can anyone agree with that?

 

[BiBunny]

So if I spend 2 years, without pay, 7 days a week, 10-12 hours a day, writing a novel, (not to mention the years before that I spent learning and honing the craft), then go through all the effort of finding an agent, publisher, etc, I should just give it away and...what? Make nothing?

So the work of artists is worth nothing?

Good Cod, most barely get by as it is.

Sorry YC, that's about the most ignorant statement I've heard in awhile. How can anyone agree with that?

I should say that I don't agree with there not being intellectual property. I don't think it's fair that you do all that work and spend all that time working on a project and then you not make any money off of it.

On the other hand, I also don't think it's fair that I've spent nearly 4 years building up a network of sites that are *finally* starting to make me some money, and the entertainment industry is trying to push through a bill that says some jealous bitch can say I stole something, and my hosting company is required by law to take it down, thus taking away my ability to make a living.

My honest opinion? If the corporations would get their hands out of EVERYTHING, we'd all be a lot better off.

Also, Keroin, I'd buy your book. And not on Kindle, where I buy everything else.

 

[BiBunny]

Also, the implications are more far-reaching than my job, though I'm enough of a narcissist to think that my continued employment is most important.

For sites whose content is controlled by only one or two people, it's not that big of a deal, as long as nobody gets a bitchy hair up his/her ass and decides to report the site for "stolen content," despite nothing having been stolen. However, for sites like Lit, where there are tens of thousands of users and thousands of contributors, it's a HUGE problem.

If Lit is made responsible for everything its users post, that's a huge liability. There's no way in the world this site can monitor everything that's posted like that. So that leaves us with one of two options:

1.) A VERY heavily-moderated board where each post has to be approved before it's posted (which would also mean we'd probably have to pay for access to this board because where are you going to find that many moderators to do all that work without paying them?), thus totally stifling the flow of information, despite the fact that most of the users here aren't ripping off anybody else's shit.

OR

2.) The owners will decide that's way too damn much trouble and will shut the place down.

It might not sound like a big deal if it's "just" Lit, but it wouldn't be. It'd be Facebook. YouTube. Twitter--which was of a good bit of importance during the Arab Spring, if you're one of those people who think social media is fluff that wouldn't be missed if it were shut down. Wikipedia. Flickr. Nearly everything that wasn't a corporate mouthpiece site.

There are better ways to deal with piracy. MUCH better. But this isn't about protecting the artists so much as protecting the profits of entertainment moguls.

 

[Keroin]

I should say that I don't agree with there not being intellectual property. I don't think it's fair that you do all that work and spend all that time working on a project and then you not make any money off of it.

On the other hand, I also don't think it's fair that I've spent nearly 4 years building up a network of sites that are *finally* starting to make me some money, and the entertainment industry is trying to push through a bill that says some jealous bitch can say I stole something, and my hosting company is required by law to take it down, thus taking away my ability to make a living.

My honest opinion? If the corporations would get their hands out of EVERYTHING, we'd all be a lot better off.

Well, I think the bottom line is we all want fair compensation for our work. The question is, how do we protect intellectual property without threatening legitimate websites or hampering freedom of expression?

I honestly don't have the answer. It certainly isn't to punish anyone who is accused of theft, nor is it to allow people to take whatever they want for free. And while I don't agree with the ambiguous wording of this bill, I do feel that better laws need to be in place...and enforced. To say "Hollywood" needs to become more innovative to ensure I get legal compensation for my work well...who, exactly, is "Hollywood"? Producers? SAG? The DGA? And how? I think that's a cop out.

Theft is theft.

If you're (general "you") running a website that enables people to steal intellectual property, your site should be shut down and you should face legal penalties. Based on facts and evidence, of course, not on random accusations.

It's complicated, I know. I do hope this bill does not pass. I do like the freedom of the Internet. But I do also think there is a lack of accountability that hurts not just large corporations but the little guys, like you and me.

Anyway, it's a good topic for discussion, BB.

Also, Keroin, I'd buy your book. And not on Kindle, where I buy everything else.

Cool! Now just tell 50,000 of your friends to do the same.

 

[BiBunny]

Cool! Now just tell 50,000 of your friends to do the same.

Never underestimate the power of the shadowy SEO genius. *Rubs hands together and laughs maniacally*

 

[txblush]

I've spent five years without pay doing a job I love. I'm not even close to seeking an agent. Publication? I'll be lucky if I can learn what I need to know in order to get that far. Prior to the Internet I paid for the library of books I have so I could learn and hone my craft. The freedom of information that flowed through the Internet made me feel like a kid in a candy store. Finally, there was a place for me and it was at my fingertips. I could learn what I needed to know at my leasure and meet other writers. That last hasn't been easy for me. I'm more of a lurker than a participant in the discussions. But this issue hits me where I live.

I've had a problem with Corporate America and the money that doesn't trickle down so that everyone makes a decent living wage. Quality workmanship doesn't come cheap.

The fact that I'm lucky enough to find the help I need to become a professional writer and it doesn't cost me anything doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.

 

[Keroin]

I've spent five years without pay doing a job I love. I'm not even close to seeking an agent. Publication? I'll be lucky if I can learn what I need to know in order to get that far. Prior to the Internet I paid for the library of books I have so I could learn and hone my craft. The freedom of information that flowed through the Internet made me feel like a kid in a candy store. Finally, there was a place for me and it was at my fingertips. I could learn what I needed to know at my leasure and meet other writers. That last hasn't been easy for me. I'm more of a lurker than a participant in the discussions. But this issue hits me where I live.

I've had a problem with Corporate America and the money that doesn't trickle down so that everyone makes a decent living wage. Quality workmanship doesn't come cheap.

The fact that I'm lucky enough to find the help I need to become a professional writer and it doesn't cost me anything doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated.

Without a doubt, the Internet is a boon to writers. (Which is why I, and others I know, are happy to buck up and donate to Wikipedia when they put their hand out.)

But five years without pay? I don't know about you, but I have rent to pay and a powerful need to...eat.

So here's a question: If you wrote a book, and it was published, would you expect people to pay to read it?

I can't speak for you, but all of the professional writers I know really need the small amount of money they make for their work. Intellectual property laws are necessary.

 

[Kurokami]

Ooh, I should definitely come back here and post something intelligent and deep when I get the chance. As a guy who makes his money off of DVD sales and such, piracy isn't exactly something I'm wild about, but the situation is more complex than that. It's funny, I did write a heavy handed tract about this exact topic for my blog, so it's all there if you get hungry for a Kuro opinion until I actually post something of value here (shameless plug) but I think I have weird opinions about this issue, if not just in general.

 

[JMohegan]

Save the internet!

And my job. Especially my job.

Also Lit. And probably nearly every other site you visit and enjoy.

I followed your link and the others embedded therein, but never found anything except sites screaming at me to TAKE ACTION RIGHT NOW.

Does anyone have a link to a concise explanation of what the specific problem is, and what's being proposed? I'm sure I should be more aware of this issue, but frankly I'm not.

I get that internet thievery is rampant. On this little website alone, people c&p shit without permission or attribution on the daily! But my thought is... if you don't want it copied, don't put it on the web.

Or do what some news sites do with photos (make it so you can't right click), or what some photography sites do (watermark on pics), or what google books does with texts in copyright (only show a tiny glimpse). Or embed files with whatever itunes has that makes songs only work on a certain number of computers or something.

 

[Etaski]

SOPA and PIPA are essentially suggesting handing over unprecedented power to the Entertainment Industries (which are not even close to the total amount of business done over the internet) for the sake of protecting intellectual property.

It allows the government and private corporations to create a "black list" of censored websites.

It's very vaguely worded (what the hell is a "rogue site" anyway?), very rushed, and is being supported by pro-corporate politicians and lobbyists who do not understand the security risks they are proposing (but undoubtedly understand the power they would be gaining).

They have not consulted the technical side of what the proposal means, and just how, in trying to "squelch piracy" will actually cause the internet to become less secure as the foundation will be compromised by this censorship. Every tech in the IT side of it is saying it's a REALLY Bad idea because of the way the system is set up.

It will also not stop the pirates, it will only allow corporations to control what content can be seen on the internet.

See here for more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-17/tech/30404716_1_sopa-internet-freedom-innovators

I've registered a complaint against the bill with my State Senators. I received back a "form letter" email from each of them (or their offices--there are 2 Senators for each State, one Democrat and one Republican).

Unsurprisingly, the Republican response was, "Businesses have lost blah-blah dollars to piracy, I am co-sponsoring this bill."

The Democrat response was, "I agree this bill is not ready to be pushed through and must be handled with far greater deliberation and information than we have at the moment."

So basically...one is for it, one is against it. My state is a stalemate.

 

[BiBunny]

SOPA and PIPA are essentially suggesting handing over unprecedented power to the Entertainment Industries (which are not even close to the total amount of business done over the internet) for the sake of protecting intellectual property.

It allows the government and private corporations to create a "black list" of censored websites.

It's very vaguely worded (what the hell is a "rogue site" anyway?), very rushed, and is being supported by pro-corporate politicians and lobbyists who do not understand the security risks they are proposing (but undoubtedly understand the power they would be gaining).

They have not consulted the technical side of what the proposal means, and just how, in trying to "squelch piracy" will actually cause the internet to become less secure as the foundation will be compromised by this censorship. Every tech in the IT side of it is saying it's a REALLY Bad idea because of the way the system is set up.

It will also not stop the pirates, it will only allow corporations to control what content can be seen on the internet.

See here for more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-12-17/tech/30404716_1_sopa-internet-freedom-innovators

I've registered a complaint against the bill with my State Senators. I received back a "form letter" email from each of them (or their offices--there are 2 Senators for each State, one Democrat and one Republican).

Unsurprisingly, the Republican response was, "Businesses have lost blah-blah dollars to piracy, I am co-sponsoring this bill."

The Democrat response was, "I agree this bill is not ready to be pushed through and must be handled with far greater deliberation and information than we have at the moment."

So basically...one is for it, one is against it. My state is a stalemate.

Gracias. I've read a lot about it, but I picked the link I did because I thought it simplified matters well enough to understand, but perhaps it simplified things too much.

ETA: JM, don't feel bad about not being familiar with it. Most people aren't because it appears to be an attempt at "rush it through and don't tell anybody about it." That's why I posted here about it.

 

[intothewoods]

I followed your link and the others embedded therein, but never found anything except sites screaming at me to TAKE ACTION RIGHT NOW.

Does anyone have a link to a concise explanation of what the specific problem is, and what's being proposed? I'm sure I should be more aware of this issue, but frankly I'm not.

I get that internet thievery is rampant. On this little website alone, people c&p shit without permission or attribution on the daily! But my thought is... if you don't want it copied, don't put it on the web.

Or do what some news sites do with photos (make it so you can't right click), or what some photography sites do (watermark on pics), or what google books does with texts in copyright (only show a tiny glimpse). Or embed files with whatever itunes has that makes songs only work on a certain number of computers or something.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/b...n-attack-on-piracy-online.html?pagewanted=all

 

[JMohegan]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/02/b...n-attack-on-piracy-online.html?pagewanted=all

Thank you! Balanced and calm, just what I wanted.

Etaski, thanks for responding as well.


The tech details of this are way above my pay grade, but I've got two general reactions here.

1 - I don't feel personally invested in the internet. I get a lot more agitated over the notion of bookstores and libraries disappearing than I do the idea of the internet crashing forever. Though it's true that shopping is a lot less of a pain in the ass than it used to be, the truth is that we did fine without the internet, for a very long time. Really, we did. And we didn't have to worry about the future of newspapers!

In short - David Carr is right. The divide in agitation here seems largely generational.


2 - I call nonsense on the notion that this is a Big Business vs. the Little Guy battle. Google, Facebook, AOL, etc. are behemoths. This is Big Business vs. Big Business, with little guys along for the ride on both sides.

And by the way, if you think piracy doesn't effect you - think again. Legally purchased prices go up when counterfeit products eat into the market. And jobs are lost when sales go to counterfeit or stolen products. Even if it's not your job, it's the economy in general.

As I said, I'm not tech savvy to know what to do about it. But I'd bet money that Congress doesn't know what to do about it, either.

 

[txblush]

Without a doubt, the Internet is a boon to writers. (Which is why I, and others I know, are happy to buck up and donate to Wikipedia when they put their hand out.)

But five years without pay? I don't know about you, but I have rent to pay and a powerful need to...eat.

So here's a question: If you wrote a book, and it was published, would you expect people to pay to read it?

I can't speak for you, but all of the professional writers I know really need the small amount of money they make for their work. Intellectual property laws are necessary.

A starving artist with a benefactor.

Yes, I would expect my published work to be paid for. I also realize it takes more than one person to produce something and that the people behind any product have to eat as well. Pay or don't pay. I do when I can. I'm also a law abiding citizen who values freedom of expression and the passing on of knowledge.

I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of the government having a say in what knowledge I can or can't have access to.

 

[Etaski]

A starving artist with a benefactor.

Yes, I would expect my published work to be paid for. I also realize it takes more than one person to produce something and that the people behind any product have to eat as well. Pay or don't pay. I do when I can. I'm also a law abiding citizen who values freedom of expression and the passing on of knowledge.

I don't know about you, but I don't like the idea of the government having a say in what knowledge I can or can't have access to.

Intellectual Property laws and internet enforcement are needed. It is a discussion that should happen.

But not like this. Not bull-rushed through Congress and the Senate backed by only Big Businessmen who want to decide for everyone else.

This is where I really hope those "checks & balances" come into play. We're a step closer to becoming the corporate world of the Aliens movies.

 

[Kojote]

Also, Keroin, I'd buy your book. And not on Kindle, where I buy everything else.

Cool! Now just tell 50,000 of your friends to do the same.

I think the solution is somewhere in here.

I remember the tim when I downloaded music back in the days of emule.
I stopped that one day and now (thanks to the internet) I can buy a track I like and don't have to spend the mones for the whole album.
And I do it with the thought that it's my personal payment to the artist.

Same with stories from here I liked enough to copy them onto my harddisk. When they get published I love to buy them. Because the money goes to the author.

I discuss this topic with friends for years now and almost all people I personally know are aware that they shouldn' ask me to view a new film with them if they didn't pay for it.
And some of them have started to do just that. Maybe at least in part through my urging.

The funny thing is: I get the feeling that people start to be proud of buying instead of stealing. Maybe because almost everybody is stealing.
And that's what I mean with the solution in there.
I hope that the general attitude is changing.


Oh... And @ keroin
Its 49.999 people left then.
Just tell me when and where to get it.

 

[Kurokami]

I say fuck intellectual property, information should be free.

People can’t be property, wasn’t too long ago that they disagreed with that idea too.

I just see a bunch of lazy suits trying to buy laws in order to stagnate progress for the purpose of minimize risks to their money.

K could be getting her royalties if Hollywood would keep up with the times and try some innovation.

But no, let’s all pretend we still live in them good old times without the internets.

I felt like I needed to respond to this one. It must be nice to not have your income be dependent in part on sales of stuff that does often fall victim to piracy. Then again, I suppose every industry has to deal with thefts from time to time.

But, well... It's also easy to create this disconnect when pirating stuff online, like you're not really stealing anything. But it's a theft like any other; just because it's harder to police and catch individual pirates doesn't make it okay. And ask yourself: if pirating is free and legal, what incentive is there for producers to create more things, if it's just going to get stolen? That money fuels the next project, and every instance of piracy increases the price of the legitimate version just to recoup that loss.

And like Keroin said, theft is theft. It doesn't really matter whether the pirates think it should be or not. You have to pay for things: if I say that groceries should be free, does that then mean I can rob a supermarket? Plenty of other people do it, why not me?

Having said all this, I do think SOPA is a step in the wrong direction, or many many steps, in actuality. For all the reasons every other detractor of the bill has used. I don't really feel like repeating all that. I just have a problem with the logic that pirates use. It's not valorous or revolutionary: it's theft.

 

[Etaski]

Well said, Kurokami.