Save Prop 13, Stop Voter Suppression in California

[BabyBoomer50s]

This thread is primarily for California taxpayers but everyone is welcome to follow along. If you live in California, November represents the most impactful and consequential state election in over 45 years. Residents should do their own homework on the tax ballot questions they will be voting on, but here’s a synopsis:

In 1978, California voters passed a landmark property tax reform initiative that rocked the nation. At the time, property tax rates in the state were averaging 2.6% as housing prices were skyrocketing. Homeowners, particularly seniors and young families were being forced to sell their houses because they couldn’t keep up with rising taxes. Proposition 13, a citizens ballot initiative stopped the bleeding.

Prop 13 amended the state constitution, rolling back assessments to 1975 levels, capping the tax rate at 1%, and limiting increases to no more than 2% per year. It also required a two-thirds majority in both legislative houses for future increases of any state tax rates as well as a two-thirds majority for increases to local taxes.

Over the years, courts and tax-starved politicians have chipped away at Prop 13 protections. To fix that, a citizen’s ballot initiative known as the Taxpayer Protection and Government Accountability Act (TPA) has qualified for the November ballot thanks to the good work of taxpayer advocacy groups and 1.4 million registered voters who successfully qualified the initiative.

The politicians are shitting their pants. They are deathly afraid it will pass. They’ve reacted with a 2 point plan.

1. Voter Suppression. Governor Newsom and his allies in the one party state have asked the state supreme court to step in and block the initiative from appearing on the ballot.

2. Counter Measures. The state legislature and the governor have placed two counter measures on the ballot. ACA 1 eliminates a key pillar of Prop 13. Instead of a two thirds majority required for most new taxes and tax hikes under Prop 13, ACA would lower the threshold to 55%. The second measure, ACA 13, is designed specifically to prevent passage of the TPA. The governor and legislature have the right to do this and that right is not being contested. Most taxpayer advocates are confident that voters will reject these two measures and say “bring it on!”

The OpEd linked below is written by John Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayer Association, one of the major sponsors of the TPA. It provides a summary of why the initiative is needed and the desperate voter suppression effort of its opponents.

https://www.ocregister.com/2024/02/...ainst-the-taxpayer-protection-act-dont-stick/

 

[HisArpy]

HJTA needs to do a lot of advertising in simple word telling people what is at stake and that just voting without digging into the language could mean that you're actually voting FOR the propositions instead of against them.

 

[Comshaw]

https://forum.literotica.com/thread...erendum-decision-today.1607450/#post-98602839

 

[cowboyup6977]

This thread is primarily for California taxpayers but everyone is welcome to follow along. If you live in California, November represents the most impactful and consequential state election in over 45 years. Residents should do their own homework on the tax ballot questions they will be voting on, but here’s a synopsis:

In 1978, California voters passed a landmark property tax reform initiative that rocked the nation. At the time, property tax rates in the state were averaging 2.6% as housing prices were skyrocketing. Homeowners, particularly seniors and young families were being forced to sell their houses because they couldn’t keep up with rising taxes. Proposition 13, a citizens ballot initiative stopped the bleeding.

Prop 13 amended the state constitution, rolling back assessments to 1975 levels, capping the tax rate at 1%, and limiting increases to no more than 2% per year. It also required a two-thirds majority in both legislative houses for future increases of any state tax rates as well as a two-thirds majority for increases to local taxes.

Over the years, courts and tax-starved politicians have chipped away at Prop 13 protections. To fix that, a citizen’s ballot initiative known as the Taxpayer Protection and Government Accountability Act (TPA) has qualified for the November ballot thanks to the good work of taxpayer advocacy groups and 1.4 million registered voters who successfully qualified the initiative.

The politicians are shitting their pants. They are deathly afraid it will pass. They’ve reacted with a 2 point plan.

1. Voter Suppression. Governor Newsom and his allies in the one party state have asked the state supreme court to step in and block the initiative from appearing on the ballot.

2. Counter Measures. The state legislature and the governor have placed two counter measures on the ballot. ACA 1 eliminates a key pillar of Prop 13. Instead of a two thirds majority required for most new taxes and tax hikes under Prop 13, ACA would lower the threshold to 55%. The second measure, ACA 13, is designed specifically to prevent passage of the TPA. The governor and legislature have the right to do this and that right is not being contested. Most taxpayer advocates are confident that voters will reject these two measures and say “bring it on!”

The OpEd linked below is written by John Coupal, president of the Howard Jarvis Taxpayer Association, one of the major sponsors of the TPA. It provides a summary of why the initiative is needed and the desperate voter suppression effort of its opponents.

https://www.ocregister.com/2024/02/...ainst-the-taxpayer-protection-act-dont-stick/

Newscum is a Nazi Dicktaker

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

HJTA needs to do a lot of advertising in simple word telling people what is at stake and that just voting without digging into the language could mean that you're actually voting FOR the propositions instead of against them.

I was a college intern in a CA county administrator’s office in 1978 and remember well what happened then. State and local politicians, bureaucrats, major newspapers, college professors, and unions screamed in unison. “Local governments will collapse,” “police, fire, and emergency services will be gutted,” etc. They even placed an alternative measure on the ballot hoping to confuse voters and override Prop 13. The voters weren’t buying it. Prop 13 passed overwhelmingly with about 2/3 of the vote. The landslide passage of Prop 13 got national attention and was a precursor to the national “tax revolt” that helped sweep President Reagan into office two years later.

The tax hogs are playing the same games again. Dire warnings of impending doom, counter measures on the ballot, and the added tactic of asking the courts to deny citizens the right to vote on the initiative. As it was in 1978, the pro-tax forces will massively outspend taxpayer advocates like HJTA and throw everything but the kitchen sink in their efforts to defeat the TPA. Time will tell if history repeats itself.

 

[Bray123]

Voter suppression and gerrymandering is good unless California.

Voter fraud is meh if by a Republican.

Trying to install a fake government is good (or false flag; all depends) if Republican, burning litter bins is insurrection if black.

 

[wizzard426]

We burned all of the port a potties at spring break, is that black?

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Comshaw wrote:

Here's the rub. It doesn't have anything to do with Newsom not wanting to give the voters a voice and everything to do with hamstringing and slowing down an already ponderous government. Below is a link to the text of the proposition. Some of the things it will do:

" Every levy. charge. or exaction of any kind imposed by local law is either a tax or an exempt charge."

There are exceptions noted, but ANYTHING other than those exceptions charged by a local government (like school levies, fees for water or sewer service, fees associated with an irrigation district, a local weed control board) would be subject to a 2/3 vote of the state legislature and a simple majority voter approval.

"Any change in state statute which results in any taxpayer paying a new or higher tax must be imposed by an act passed by not less than two-thirds of all members elected to each of the two houses of the Legislature, and submitted to the electorate and approved by a majority vote, except that no new ad valorem taxes on real property, or sales or transaction taxes on the sales of real property, may be
imposed."

This isn't a matter of Newsom not wanting to give the voters a voice. It's a matter of a very shoddily written initiative that will in effect slow the already glacial pace of government almost to a standstill.

After reading through this I wouldn't vote for it. Unfortunately, people don't take the time to read through such things and educate themselves on what it will do. Instead, they rely on others to tell them what it says, so are subject to the interpretation of those they listen to.”


The Taxpayer Protection and Government Accountability Act


Comshaw
———————

Since it’s already been irrefutably established that the California state constitution provides a way for citizens to put initiatives on the ballot, and that the governor is trying have a citizen’s initiative removed from the ballot, I’ll address the remaining points in his comments.

He copied and pasted sections of the ballot language so there’s nothing to debate on that. The crux of his argument is that the TPA is bad because it will make it harder to raise taxes or introduce new taxes. That is in fact the point of the TPA. And yes, it will slow the growth of government and “hamstring” government expansion by forcing prioritization.

 

[Lazaran]

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Newscum is a Nazi Dicktaker

I wouldn’t go that far. Just a terrible governor, accompanied by a terrible state legislature and terrible politicians that govern the larger cities.

 

[cowboyup6977]

The problem with the initiatives is just like Prop 47 the state spent so much money convincing people this would help the disadvantaged
So it passed
Now look what we have
What idiots thought that it’s ok to steal $950 and nothing happens to them
Now they can’t understand why crime is out of control

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

The problem with the initiatives is just like Prop 47 the state spent so much money convincing people this would help the disadvantaged
So it passed
Now look what we have
What idiots thought that it’s ok to steal $950 and nothing happens to them
Now they can’t understand why crime is out of control

There’s a signature drive underway now to place a ballot initiative in November to repeal Prop 47. Based on what I’m hearing from my neighbors out in CA it looks like it has a good chance. Even progressive mayors are calling for reforming Prop 47, including the mayor of the Bay Area’s largest city as well as the mayors of smaller cities like San Francisco.

 

[cowboyup6977]

There’s a signature drive underway now to place a ballot initiative in November to repeal Prop 47. Based on what I’m hearing from my neighbors out in CA it looks like it has a good chance. Even progressive mayors are calling for reforming Prop 47, including the mayor of the Bay Area’s largest city as well as the mayors of smaller cities like San Francisco.

It never would have passed the first time without government interference
If an initiative does pass or fail and the state doesn’t like it they tie it up in court

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

It never would have passed the first time without government interference
If an initiative does pass or fail and the state doesn’t like it they tie it up in court

Or they tie it up counting ballots. They are STILL counting ballots from the March 5th election

 

[Comshaw]

Comshaw wrote:

Here's the rub. It doesn't have anything to do with Newsom not wanting to give the voters a voice and everything to do with hamstringing and slowing down an already ponderous government. Below is a link to the text of the proposition. Some of the things it will do:

" Every levy. charge. or exaction of any kind imposed by local law is either a tax or an exempt charge."

There are exceptions noted, but ANYTHING other than those exceptions charged by a local government (like school levies, fees for water or sewer service, fees associated with an irrigation district, a local weed control board) would be subject to a 2/3 vote of the state legislature and a simple majority voter approval.

"Any change in state statute which results in any taxpayer paying a new or higher tax must be imposed by an act passed by not less than two-thirds of all members elected to each of the two houses of the Legislature, and submitted to the electorate and approved by a majority vote, except that no new ad valorem taxes on real property, or sales or transaction taxes on the sales of real property, may be
imposed."

This isn't a matter of Newsom not wanting to give the voters a voice. It's a matter of a very shoddily written initiative that will in effect slow the already glacial pace of government almost to a standstill.

After reading through this I wouldn't vote for it. Unfortunately, people don't take the time to read through such things and educate themselves on what it will do. Instead, they rely on others to tell them what it says, so are subject to the interpretation of those they listen to.”


The Taxpayer Protection and Government Accountability Act


Comshaw
———————

Since it’s already been irrefutably established that the California state constitution provides a way for citizens to put initiatives on the ballot, and that the governor is trying have a citizen’s initiative removed from the ballot, I’ll address the remaining points in his comments.

He copied and pasted sections of the ballot language so there’s nothing to debate on that. The crux of his argument is that the TPA is bad because it will make it harder to raise taxes or introduce new taxes. That is in fact the point of the TPA. And yes, it will slow the growth of government and “hamstring” government expansion by forcing prioritization.

No that wasn't the crux of my argument. What was, is that if passed this "Accountability" act will cripple the government in California to the point where it will cease to function. Here's what I said on this subject in another thread:

As far as The Initiative process, yes California does have that in the constitution citizens can place a measure on the ballot subject to the requirements set out in the constitution. BUT they do not have a provision to automatically require a vote on an action taken by the government. That is what this measure calls for, an automatic vote on any tax (defined in the measure as any charge levied by the government) which is direct Democracy and will slow the government to a crawl. What then? Is everyone who voted for this going to start screaming because the water isn't flowing to their faucets because there are no funds to fix it and those funds will not be available until a tax is passed by the people and the legislature, which could take years?

It won't "slow the growth of government" it will bring it to a grinding halt. And it will “hamstring” government expansion" for sure. And it will be "forcing prioritization" but I don't think you're going to like how the prioritization is done. It ain't gonna go the way you think it will.

And to Newsom trying to stifle voters voices, here's a link that explains why it was requested to be removed from the ballot by the Supreme Court:

"The initiative, a proposed state constitutional amendment supported by business groups, has collected enough signatures to qualify for the ballot. But Newsom and the Legislature’s Democratic majority contend the measure would so drastically weaken the historic powers of the state’s elected leaders and lawmakers that it would amount to a “revision” of the California Constitution, which cannot be done by initiative."

If the court finds it amounts to a revision of the constitution, it's lawful and appropriate to remove it from the ballot. We've had several initiatives here in this state that didn't make it to the ballot, even though they had broad support from voters because the initiative didn't meet the requirements of or in some cases (like this one maybe?) went well beyond the limits of what it should lawfully do.

That said, if the people of California really want this and can't get it done by initiative, there are other avenues where they can make it happen, through the legislature as a constitutional amendment.

So all the gnashing of teeth over Newsom "silencing the voter's voices" is all theater and hogwash.

Comshaw

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...ling-tax-measure-from-2024-ballot/ar-AA1kKyNw

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

Good summary of what’s at stake for California taxpayers. Biggest statewide issue in over 45 years coming up on the November ballot.

https://calmatters.org/commentary/2024/04/raising-california-taxes-ballot-measure/

 

[Comshaw]

Good summary of what’s at stake for California taxpayers. Biggest statewide issue in over 45 years coming up on the November ballot.

https://calmatters.org/commentary/2024/04/raising-california-taxes-ballot-measure/

California Supreme Court orders Taxpayer Protection Act off the ballot, siding with Newsom

And so it is and so it goes. The California Supreme Court has found Prop 13 violates the California Constitution. In easy to understand language, It ain't gunna' happen because it's in violation of existing law. Ain't no "voter suppression" to it. Prepare for the "Deep State done it!" argument.

Comshaw

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

California Supreme Court orders Taxpayer Protection Act off the ballot, siding with Newsom

And so it is and so it goes. The California Supreme Court has found Prop 13 violates the California Constitution. In easy to understand language, It ain't gunna' happen because it's in violation of existing law. Ain't no "voter suppression" to it. Prepare for the "Deep State done it!" argument.

Comshaw

The court’s logic was twisted but not surprising given the politics in the state. The Democrats were extremely worried that the TPA would pass and launched a multi pronged attack to prevent that from happening.

CA voters still need to pay attention to ACA 10 (formerly known as ACA 1, and ACA 13. ACA 10, if passed by voters, would lower the threshold for bonds from 2/3 to 55%. ACA 13 was designed to thwart the TPA. Although TPA won’t be on the ballot in 2024, it’s likely that a new version will be back in 2026. If ACA 13 passes, it will be much more difficult to pass future tax reform.

Voters will be confronted with a slew of new parcel tax measures at the state and local levels in November. Regional entities such as the Bay Area Housing Finance Authority, cities, counties, and school districts are flooding the ballot this year.

 

[DeluxAuto]

The court’s logic was twisted but not surprising given the politics in the state. The Democrats were extremely worried that the TPA would pass and launched a multi pronged attack to prevent that from happening.

CA voters still need to pay attention to ACA 10 (formerly known as ACA 1, and ACA 13. ACA 10, if passed by voters, would lower the threshold for bonds from 2/3 to 55%. ACA 13 was designed to thwart the TPA. Although TPA won’t be on the ballot in 2024, it’s likely that a new version will be back in 2026. If ACA 13 passes, it will be much more difficult to pass future tax reform.

Voters will be confronted with a slew of new parcel tax measures at the state and local levels in November. Regional entities such as the Bay Area Housing Finance Authority, cities, counties, and school districts are flooding the ballot this year.

California broke up with you and you're lashing out. Have some damn pride.

 

[Comshaw]

The court’s logic was twisted but not surprising given the politics in the state. The Democrats were extremely worried that the TPA would pass and launched a multi pronged attack to prevent that from happening.

CA voters still need to pay attention to ACA 10 (formerly known as ACA 1, and ACA 13. ACA 10, if passed by voters, would lower the threshold for bonds from 2/3 to 55%. ACA 13 was designed to thwart the TPA. Although TPA won’t be on the ballot in 2024, it’s likely that a new version will be back in 2026. If ACA 13 passes, it will be much more difficult to pass future tax reform.

Voters will be confronted with a slew of new parcel tax measures at the state and local levels in November. Regional entities such as the Bay Area Housing Finance Authority, cities, counties, and school districts are flooding the ballot this year.

As predicted. "The court got it wrong!" Bullshit. The "Democrats" had nothing to do with it. Yeah, they opposed it, but do you really believe it influenced the court enough to sway their ruling? Or do you believe the court is part of the "deep state"? They found it in violation of California's constitution. It was an extremely flawed and shoddily put-together initiative that violated your existing laws (the State Constitution).

We've had many over the years here in this state that were taken off the ballot for the same thing. The big bugaboo here is the law specifies one initiative one subject. People tend to try to shoehorn several subjects into one initiative and they get thrown out every time.

The solution for ya'll is simple, write one that adheres to the parameters set by the state constitution, or if it's a subject that is covered by the Constitution, work to get a constitutional amendment in place.

If they try another go around with the same stuff it's gunna' be thrown out again and no amount of angst over "twisted logic" is going to get it on the ballot.



Comshaw

 

[cowboyup6977]

Seems funny it withstood all this time
But now that Newscum has the state so far in debt
Just seems too convenient

 

[DeluxAuto]

Why don't we see people who actually live in California whine this much about what happens in California?

We must have members who have to negotiate the mean streets of 'Frisco and Los Angeles, yes?

Anyone from a border city losing their homes to illegals?

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

As predicted. "The court got it wrong!" Bullshit. The "Democrats" had nothing to do with it. Yeah, they opposed it, but do you really believe it influenced the court enough to sway their ruling? Or do you believe the court is part of the "deep state"? They found it in violation of California's constitution. It was an extremely flawed and shoddily put-together initiative that violated your existing laws (the State Constitution).

We've had many over the years here in this state that were taken off the ballot for the same thing. The big bugaboo here is the law specifies one initiative one subject. People tend to try to shoehorn several subjects into one initiative and they get thrown out every time.

The solution for ya'll is simple, write one that adheres to the parameters set by the state constitution, or if it's a subject that is covered by the Constitution, work to get a constitutional amendment in place.

If they try another go around with the same stuff it's gunna' be thrown out again and no amount of angst over "twisted logic" is going to get it on the ballot.



Comshaw

The California state constitution allows constitutional amendments to be placed on the ballot through the initiative process. In fact that’s how Proposition 13 passed in 1978. Are you a registered voter in CA?

 

[Comshaw]

The California state constitution allows constitutional amendments to be placed on the ballot through the initiative process. In fact that’s how Proposition 13 passed in 1978. Are you a registered voter in CA?

No. I live bit farther up the coast. Does that cancel out my voicing my opinion? Or are you going to say I shouldn't have an opinion because I don't live in California? Neither should be a consideration.

Since the court found this initiative to be in violation of the State Constitution and (by you) constitutional amendments are allowed through the California initiative process, are the organizers now going to put an initiative on the ballot to modify the State Constitution? If not they are spinning their wheels. Why don't people do their homework to begin with? I think it's because they believe they can bull it through. And when it goes off the rails, it's always someone else's fault it did.


Comshaw

 

[BabyBoomer50s]

No. I live bit farther up the coast. Does that cancel out my voicing my opinion? Or are you going to say I shouldn't have an opinion because I don't live in California? Neither should be a consideration.

Since the court found this initiative to be in violation of the State Constitution and (by you) constitutional amendments are allowed through the California initiative process, are the organizers now going to put an initiative on the ballot to modify the State Constitution? If not they are spinning their wheels. Why don't people do their homework to begin with? I think it's because they believe they can bull it through. And when it goes off the rails, it's always someone else's fault it did.


Comshaw

No, not being a California doesn’t diminish your right to an opinion. I was just curious about how close you are to CA tax policy. I’m not a California voter either, although I still pay property taxes in CA, maintain deep roots in the state and remain engaged in taxpayer advocacy.

The court recognizes the constitutionality of amendments through initiatives and legislative ballot measures, and in fact the state legislature is placing two on the ballot this November. In this case, the court decided that TPA is not an amendment but rather a revision to the state constitution. How they arrived at that subjective interpretation is a word salad that I won’t attempt to rationalize. The point is they have decided and that’s that. What matters now is what taxpayers can do next.

I believe the Jarvis Taxpayer Association and Business Roundtable will come back with another initiative in 2026 that will attempt to be bullet proof from judicial overreach. They’ve already telegraphed that intent. I’ve seen this movie before in 1978. The politicians threw everything including the kitchen sink to stop Prop 13. Legal maneuvers, an alternative competing ballot measure intended to pull votes from Prop 13, and of course heavy doses of lies and scare tactics. We were told that local government funding would dry up, municipalities would collapse, and schools would be shuttered. Voters didn’t buy what the tax hogs were selling, Prop 13 passed, and revenues have increased an average of 6% per year in the 45 years that followed.

If you’re interested in California tax reform politics, keep your eye on ACA 10 and ACA 13 (official ballot numbers and titles TBD) and the multitude of regional and municipal parcel tax measures on the November ballot.