Saudi Wahabi Islam - The real enemy?

[colddiesel]

ISIL is not the fundamental problem. It is the latest and worst manifestation.

Wahabi Islam is a branch of extreme conservative Sunni Islam. Wahabis believe in a very primitive interpretation of Islam that is pre-medaevil. They believe in a world wide caliphate, the death or enslavement of all non believers, and the utter subjection of women and social minorities. And that is when they are being nice.

They originated entirely as a Saudi Arabian phenomenon. They make up the whole of the Saudi Religious police, most of the Saudi Royal family and own the vast majority of Saudi oil.

For the past 20 years the Saudi government has funded Madrassas and mosques all over the world in Europe, the UK, USA, Australia, Indonesia, India. Every Madrassa has Wahabi teachers concentrating on teaching and recruiting young men to their primitive Islam.

All of the 9/11 bombers were Wahabis. The London bombers of 7/7 were taught by Wahabis, the Bali bombers were trained by Wahabis, as were the Bombay bombers, as were the Beirut bombers, as were the Madrid bombers. Any prizes for who indoctrinated the men who bombed Paris?

ISIL was created with Saudi money, Saudi Arms and Saudi Wahabi Islam. So to my mind the first issue is to destroy ISIL, but the second and far more important, is to destroy this movement at its roots in Saudi Arabia.

And yet there are still Western leaders who refer to the Saudis as our allies!

Are Western leaders prepared to take on the task? Are they prepared to oust the Saudi Royals? Will they continue to allow the growth of this ideology in their own countries? - in the name of religious freedom!

Will the killing continue, because if we only destroy ISIL, there will be a fresh group of killers nurtured by the Saudi Wahabi incubator.

I am not too confident, because in the West we have a massive crisis of leadership.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

The so-called 'Koran' that is read and possessed and 'studied' by most muslims throughout the world, is a book invented by Cambridge linguists and the House of Saud (which they set up)together, and these are printed IN Saudi Arabia for the most part, and sent around the world and handed out 'for free' (no free lunches?!).

There are only half a dozen or so actual original 'texts' dating from around the actual years shortly after Mohammed himself - and I have personally seen two of these: they are not much more than fifteen pages long and are virtually copies of the Gospel of Matthew in a shortened form. The stressed point of this text is a call for unification of deist believers so that sectarian argument and violence is stopped.

Anyone who tells you that I am wrong is a straight out liar or a dupe of the modern Wahabi sect run from the criminally insane House of Saud. The shame of it is that too many committed, practising Muslims really believe the book they are reading from IS the Koran; and it is not.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Yes, Syriac Christianity.

There is a lot of scholarship. There are also "Islamic" coins of the early period that depict a cross.

I've posted several times before on that aspect of Islam's founding, but most people prefer the storybook version and consider themselves more educated and aware for adopting literal transmission of the Koran from God to his agent, Mohammed.

 

[Desiremakesmeweak]

In short, the OP is pretty close to being 100% correct, except that I would add we are still talking about a large group of people, extending to some of the people at the top ranks of the refinery industry worldwide, segments of UK academia who are the legacy of the UK Foreign Office from more than a hundred years ago, and global money which is run from Tel Aviv.

And the sad thing is - I do not include Bernie Baruch as a negative factor, nor Gertrude Bell as a negative factor, nor necessarily T.E. Lawrence, nor Evelyn Rothschild. What I do say is that largely nameless, faceless figures around them and after them within bureaucracies, pushed everything into their own pockets and exploited the situation for their own power and material gain. But there is no possible way one can say the names of Lawrence and Bell, or Evelyn Rothschild and King Faisal, or Baruch - in the same breath together with today's MI5 and MI6, or the Bank for International Settlements, or today's Federal Reserve Bank System, or even today's Shell Corporation, and think that in any way these people are the same kinds of people.

People just don't want to believe, nor do they understand, that the difference between the House of Saud, and Bibi Netanyahu... ...is nothing.

 

[toubab]

The so-called 'Koran' that is read and possessed and 'studied' by most muslims throughout the world, is a book invented by Cambridge linguists and the House of Saud (which they set up)together, and these are printed IN Saudi Arabia for the most part, and sent around the world and handed out 'for free' (no free lunches?!).

There are only half a dozen or so actual original 'texts' dating from around the actual years shortly after Mohammed himself - and I have personally seen two of these: they are not much more than fifteen pages long and are virtually copies of the Gospel of Matthew in a shortened form. The stressed point of this text is a call for unification of deist believers so that sectarian argument and violence is stopped.

Anyone who tells you that I am wrong is a straight out liar or a dupe of the modern Wahabi sect run from the criminally insane House of Saud. The shame of it is that too many committed, practising Muslims really believe the book they are reading from IS the Koran; and it is not.

I'm guessing you also don't think the King James version of the Bible is the Word of God.

 

[OjosMojo]

ISIL is not the fundamental problem. It is the latest and worst manifestation.

Wahabi Islam is a branch of extreme conservative Sunni Islam. Wahabis believe in a very primitive interpretation of Islam that is pre-medaevil. They believe in a world wide caliphate, the death or enslavement of all non believers, and the utter subjection of women and social minorities. And that is when they are being nice.

They originated entirely as a Saudi Arabian phenomenon. They make up the whole of the Saudi Religious police, most of the Saudi Royal family and own the vast majority of Saudi oil.

For the past 20 years the Saudi government has funded Madrassas and mosques all over the world in Europe, the UK, USA, Australia, Indonesia, India. Every Madrassa has Wahabi teachers concentrating on teaching and recruiting young men to their primitive Islam.

All of the 9/11 bombers were Wahabis. The London bombers of 7/7 were taught by Wahabis, the Bali bombers were trained by Wahabis, as were the Bombay bombers, as were the Beirut bombers, as were the Madrid bombers. Any prizes for who indoctrinated the men who bombed Paris?

ISIL was created with Saudi money, Saudi Arms and Saudi Wahabi Islam. So to my mind the first issue is to destroy ISIL, but the second and far more important, is to destroy this movement at its roots in Saudi Arabia.

And yet there are still Western leaders who refer to the Saudis as our allies!

Are Western leaders prepared to take on the task? Are they prepared to oust the Saudi Royals? Will they continue to allow the growth of this ideology in their own countries? - in the name of religious freedom!

Will the killing continue, because if we only destroy ISIL, there will be a fresh group of killers nurtured by the Saudi Wahabi incubator.

I am not too confident, because in the West we have a massive crisis of leadership.

Cool: completely eradicate the House of Saud and Wahabbism, thereby extinguishing Sunnism as much as feasible - to that limit. Good job.

What are you then going to do about the other two-thirds of "The real enemy"?

Islam has been a violent, territorial conqueror since, under credible fear of assassination from the folks of the proverbial village he was part of, Mohammed literally fled for his life to another locale. There, to survive, he and his brand-new merry band of Muslims raided and robbed caravans for their living, honing their skills and hoarding supply enough to eventually return to where they all had been kicked-out of, to conquer it by absolute force. See a pattern emerge?

BTW: this was 600 AD stuff going on. It'd be another 1,100 years or so until Muhammad bin Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab formed their own gang of Islamabads you speak of.

But, back to our story:

All was swell for a while in Islamaville until the Big Eye of the Sky kicked the bucket (some say he died from fever, which also could've resulted from the intentional poisoning others say was his demise - either way, Allah was obviously willing). Then the scramble arose to pick Mohammed's successor, the very first caliphate, to the gang he left behind. Before that fight could turn into a literal bloodbath among themselves, a dude name Ali withdrew himself from consideration for the top job to make peace, which it did - for a while. (Mohammed fathered no sons; Ali was his cousin and son-in-law).

But then the original bruhaha naturally arose again, with the two main differing sides plotting and killing each other, trying to establish complete dominance over the other: Sunni vs. Shia. See a pattern emerge?

Ali again was in the middle of it all, this time again as the favored leader of the Shia. To finally put all that We want Ali! crap to rest, guess what the Sunni side did? Uh huh - you do see that pattern, don't you?

With Ali snuffed for good and the rest of his Shia supporters fleeing for their own lives, the Sunni faction of Islam finally had forced control of "the religion of peace". Unfortunately, the wholesale murder and violence between the two dominant sides of Islam hasn't decreased since that very beginning over, what, 1300 years or so ago?

And since then, of course, both Shia and Sunni have forcefully pimped more and more of their "religion of peace" outside their own deadly sphere, at the point of the sword and suicide bomb, against all infidels. Which to a Sunni means everyone in this world besides themselves, including Shias, and to a Shia means everyone in this world besides themselves, including Sunnis.

So now, today, you succeed in cutting off one head of the former two-headed Muslim snake and you congratulate yourself for your great accomplishment of finally eliminating one of the now three Muslim gangs which all insist they alone are the current caliphate (= rightful Islamic successor to Mohammed, and thus the true leader of all Islam), or the home thereof...

...while leaving the Islamic Republic of Iran and all its Shia lemmings (currently awaiting its Twelfth Iman to appear as true caliphate) to continue the deadly jihad that Mohammed himself begat in the "religion of peace" at the beginning, and the new bozo Muslims on the block, the Sunnis of the Islamic State of the Iraq and Syria, who have infamously claimed themselves to be the rightful caliphate of Mohammed and are doing the head bozo Muslim proud by carrying on his instituted way of death and destruction.

Eliminate just the Sauds and the pattern still lives on.

Doing a job third-way is pretty great self-congratulatory work if you can get it. I guess. But there is nothing but ungrateful, fundamentally principled, ugly and bloody grunt work ahead if the world wishes to rid itself of its gravest, current plague. And if there is any question if it has the actual will to rid itself of jihadic Wahabbism, just imagine the vast amount of fortitude it'll take to actually cleanse the world of the total of jihadic Islam itself.

Islam commands that all people of the world have always been born automatically Muslim, and that anyone who does not confess that truth is an infidel, and must submit to Islam anyway - by tax or death. Whatever.

The problem with Islam starts with each Muslim's individual interpretation of jihad, and whether its spiritually or materially discerned. The same can be basically said of every human's problem.

To a God-revering, spiritual Muslim, jihad is that individual's struggle, the war in him/herself between the concrete physical world s/he is no doubt so much a part of, and the Spirit of God within him/her, steering her/him stoutly to the things of God, to the kingdom of God. Any other God-revering, spiritual person - no matter the flavor of man-made religion - knows that same personal struggle, that jihad, is more vital to their true existence than any battle with mere man.

No natural man - those who naturally reject God and spirit - can even begin to understand the personal jihad inside every believer, yet every man's natural state of struggle nevertheless exists in every unbeliever, too.

Thus, natural man's jihad must be projected outside themselves: no spiritual world existing within the natural individual to wage it in, natural man's own jihad must be waged in the physical world. And her/his jihad must be waged against others, because there's only so many total fools who willfully commit suicide themselves.

So, you see, it's not really even about wiping out Saudi Arabian Wahabbism or Iran or ISIS - it's simply about dealing squarely with any individual who does not voluntarily revere the natural individual liberty of every human being to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.

No matter religion, no matter government, no matter nation...

...the only truth worth living and dying for is the individual liberty of all.

That is the war which needs to be engaged for the well-being of everyone on the face of this planet, and that we - America - don't hold individual liberty for all the world up as our ONLY standard explains why we don't have no true idea what we're fighting for, let alone the WILL to win what should be fought for all for.

Let the tl;dr;wgaf begin...

 

[Hard_Rom]

I'm guessing you also don't think the King James version of the Bible is the Word of God.

The word of God is in Hebrew or Greek if you're Christian. Arabic if you're Muslim. Not English.

Try translate anything from one language to another and then do it again into a third language. Folk will argue for 3k years over proper meaning.

Ever try read badly translated Chinese assembly instructions. Only time instructions do not help.

 

[phrodeau]

The word of God is in Hebrew or Greek if you're Christian. Arabic if you're Muslim. Not English.

Try translate anything from one language to another and then do it again into a third language. Folk will argue for 3k years over proper meaning.

Ever try read badly translated Chinese assembly instructions. Only time instructions do not help.

That's all God's fault, too. He didn't want us to understand each other.

Genesis 11:6 And the Lord said, “There is now one people and they all have one language. This is what they have begun to do, and now all that they plan to do will be possible for them. 7 Come, let’s go down and mix up their language there so they won’t understand each other’s language.” 8 Then the Lord dispersed them from there over all of the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 Therefore, it is named Babel, because there the Lord mixed up the language of all the earth; and from there the Lord dispersed them over all the earth.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Cool: completely eradicate the House of Saud and Wahabbism, thereby extinguishing Sunnism as much as feasible - to that limit. Good job.

What are you then going to do about the other two-thirds of "The real enemy"?

Islam has been a violent, territorial conqueror since, under credible fear of assassination from the folks of the proverbial village he was part of, Mohammed literally fled for his life to another locale. There, to survive, he and his brand-new merry band of Muslims raided and robbed caravans for their living, honing their skills and hoarding supply enough to eventually return to where they all had been kicked-out of, to conquer it by absolute force. See a pattern emerge?

BTW: this was 600 AD stuff going on. It'd be another 1,100 years or so until Muhammad bin Saud and Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab formed their own gang of Islamabads you speak of.

But, back to our story:

All was swell for a while in Islamaville until the Big Eye of the Sky kicked the bucket (some say he died from fever, which also could've resulted from the intentional poisoning others say was his demise - either way, Allah was obviously willing). Then the scramble arose to pick Mohammed's successor, the very first caliphate, to the gang he left behind. Before that fight could turn into a literal bloodbath among themselves, a dude name Ali withdrew himself from consideration for the top job to make peace, which it did - for a while. (Mohammed fathered no sons; Ali was his cousin and son-in-law).

But then the original bruhaha naturally arose again, with the two main differing sides plotting and killing each other, trying to establish complete dominance over the other: Sunni vs. Shia. See a pattern emerge?

Ali again was in the middle of it all, this time again as the favored leader of the Shia. To finally put all that We want Ali! crap to rest, guess what the Sunni side did? Uh huh - you do see that pattern, don't you?

With Ali snuffed for good and the rest of his Shia supporters fleeing for their own lives, the Sunni faction of Islam finally had forced control of "the religion of peace". Unfortunately, the wholesale murder and violence between the two dominant sides of Islam hasn't decreased since that very beginning over, what, 1300 years or so ago?

And since then, of course, both Shia and Sunni have forcefully pimped more and more of their "religion of peace" outside their own deadly sphere, at the point of the sword and suicide bomb, against all infidels. Which to a Sunni means everyone in this world besides themselves, including Shias, and to a Shia means everyone in this world besides themselves, including Sunnis.

This where you lost me. This is where you went off the reservation.

Suicide bombs against the infidels is a new thing. Until a people living on the land for 2k years under various colonial powers were finally driven off by a wave of illegal immigrants bent on setting up a religious state. Even then the PLO was never labelled as Muslim or even Sunni. Just as Palestinian.

It took a totalitarian dictator and oil sheiks to awaken an international jihadist group that had just defeated one of the world's greatest and most vile superpowers in a just holy war. Having infidel and Imperialist troops basing attacks on fellow Muslims from what more people consider the Holy land than Christians and Jews put together sent radical fascist Wahhabis mad. Being fascist is the key word.

When Europe was in it's Dark Ages. The ME was enjoying a huge renaissance due to Islam. The Arabic world saved our asses from the Germanic barbarians and the Roman church. When we went on our own holy war, we call Crusade, we started to realize there was more out in the world than just heathens and infidels. Notice how we use Arabic numbers. We got pepper and zero through them from other Muslims half a world away. Good on ya!

When the Muslims conquered pagans back in the day. They were given a choice. Any one of the Children of the Book. Islam, Christian or Jewish. Where do you think Russia got all it's Jews from?! Teutonic Knights marching through the Baltic states were never as enlightened.

The final inheritors of the Caliphates weren't even Arab. Turks from middle Russia. Acted much more like a colonial power than any Islamic Caliphate. Then came fascist dictators supported by either Moscow or Washington. In times of trouble, religion makes a great shield. The ME hasn't had a proper government since the Mongols proper last held Baghdad. No doubt a simple conservative approach to religion with no priest to twist holy words around did not die out.

And nobody noticed or really cared until one day in a September...

 

[OjosMojo]

This where you lost me.

Evidently, not until I wipe.

 

[JohnnySavage]

I've never had Saudi wasabi. I wonder if it's really horseradish, like we get in the US

 

[Hard_Rom]

Evidently, not until I wipe.

You're the Klingon Dago! Those little white balls of shitter paper that cling on the hairs of your ass and they go where you go!

You can tell fascist racist haters are stupid. They can't even string together a good insult. Monosyllabic grunting with the odd capital letter thrown in and zed instead of ess.

 

[about_average]

The word of God is in Hebrew or Greek if you're Christian. Arabic if you're Muslim. Not English.

Try translate anything from one language to another and then do it again into a third language. Folk will argue for 3k years over proper meaning.

Add in the fact there are no original copies of the scriptures in existence and much of what we consider "The Bible" was transcribed by illiterates and... yeah, the King James version is probably quite different than what was originally written.

 

[Hard_Rom]

Add in the fact there are no original copies of the scriptures in existence and much of what we consider "The Bible" was transcribed by illiterates and... yeah, the King James version is probably quite different than what was originally written.

And until they uncover an original Book of Mary, the whole thing is hearsay. She saw him die and live again in the cave. First hand witness account missing. None of the disciples were with Jesus when he died or arose again.

Mary his wife not the mother.