San Bernardino, CA: Man Shoots 4 @ Del Taco!

[3113]

A man carrying two guns walked inside a Southern California fast food restaurant and shot four people who were eating lunch together, killing two — including an 8-year-old boy — before turning the gun on himself, police said Saturday. The 56-year-old man arrived at the Del Taco restaurant in San Bernardino on a bike at about 1 p.m., walked over to a table and shot a man, a 29-year-old woman, her 5-year-old son and her 8-year-old son, San Bernardino police Lt. Jarrod Burguan said.

The man eating with the group was declared dead at the restaurant and the 8-year-old was declared dead at a hospital, San Bernardino Fire Department spokesman Steve Tracey said. The woman, the 5-year-old boy and the gunman were hospitalized in critical condition, Tracey said. The names of the victims and the shooter weren't released and the relationships of the dead man and the gunman to the victims wasn't immediately clear.

Full story here.

 

[JackLuis]

The wild west lives in San Berdoo!

 

[voluptuary_manque]

Yanno, the San Andreas runs right through the middle of that town. Sooner or later . . .

 

[driphoney]

I was going to make a joke about Del Taco not being that bad, but then I read the excerpt.

How sad.

 

[R. Richard]

Schlager (the shooter,) who is from Lancaster in northern Los Angeles County, had an extensive criminal record dating back to 1972 that included assault with a deadly weapon and a restraining order taken out by a co-worker.

The shooter was a convicted felon and, theoretically, should not have had a gun in the first place. So much for gun control.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

One of the comments on the story suggest that the shooter was the woman's stepfather.

 

[voluptuary_manque]

In the Times today the article said that the woman's mother died some years ago. What the problem was between the gunman and his stepdaughter is unclear.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I met a woman who went into a grief-support group to deal with the death of her mother a few years ago. The group was a big help to her, and she stayed on longer than she needed because she found it comforting, especially when she could help others.

Then one day a man came in and told the following story: He and his family lived in some nice suburb in Southern California, and he and his wife were just driving out to the supermarket on a Sunday afternoon when a neighbor came jogging across their lawn, waving as if he needed to talk to them. The man stopped his car in his driveway and put it in park, and the neighbor came up to the passenger side and leaned on the car to catch his breath as the man's wife lowered her window to see what was wrong.

As soon as the window was down, the neighbor pulled out a handgun and without a word shot the wife three times in the head.

She fell over against the man and bled to death in his lap before he could even understand what had happened.

The shooter then walked across the street to where another couple was getting out of their car, but they'd apparently seen what had happened and quickly ran back inside their house and called the police. He then changed direction and started walking down the street, apparently looking for more people to kill. He put up no resistance when the cops finally came, and offered no explanation as far as the man knew.

The horror of this man's experience kind of overwhelmed the group and struck them speechless. My friend especially, who's pretty sensitive and empathic, had nightmares that very night and soon started dreading going to the group and having to deal with this man and the unbearable meaninglessness of his loss. After two weeks, she decided she just couldn't go back. Wracked with guilt and shame, she lied her way out of it and terminated, and began staying in her house, haunted by nagging fears.

From what she knows, no motive was ever established for the murder. There'd been no sort of clandestine love affair, no neighborly squabble. The neighbor'd been divorced 2 years ago and worked as an accountant or in some other very staid profession. No financial problems or anything like that ever came to light. Apparently he was a nice guy, good neighbor, the usual.

I don't know if there's a moral to this or a lesson or anything you can really say about it, and I think that's what makes the whole story so disturbing and devastating.

 

[3113]

The shooter was a convicted felon and, theoretically, should not have had a gun in the first place. So much for gun control.

Actually, this says so much for not good ENOUGH gun control. You just shot your own argument on the uselessness of gun control in the foot.

 

[TxRad]

Actually, this says so much for not good ENOUGH gun control. You just shot your own argument on the uselessness of gun control in the foot.

Ask Australians about gun control.

In England, no one but police are supposed to even own a hand gun. Ask the English here how well that works.

Ban handguns in this country and all you'll have is the crazies and the criminals with handguns. Gun control does not work, I'm sorry to say, unless it's being able to shot a one inch, five shot group, at a minimum of twenty five yards.

The guy that did this has a criminal record and I know that neither gun was registered to him. Since he was a felon, he wasn't even supposed to be carrying a gun. How are we doing on gun control so far?

 

[Zeb_Carter]

Gun Control is a figment of the imagination. The cat was out of the bag two seconds after the first firearm was invented. The only people who would conform to the rules and regulations of any gun control strategy are the law abiding citizens, who if they do own guns, are the most likely never to use them except in self defense.

Anyone who thinks gun control will keep guns out of the hands of criminals is sorrily mistaken.

 

[R. Richard]

Actually, this says so much for not good ENOUGH gun control. You just shot your own argument on the uselessness of gun control in the foot.

As has been stated, the effect of gun control is to keep guns out of the hands of honest, law-abiding citizens.

The criminals and the crazies will find ways to get guns, regardless of gun control rules. And then, they get to use their illegal guns against unarmed citizens.

In New York City, where I used to live (or whatever,) it's damn near impossible for the average, law-abiding citizen to legally possess a handgun. The politicians and/or the rich can easily obtain a gun permit. Rosie O'Donnel, who is adamently opposed to hand guns always used an armed bodyguard. NYC has a very high rate of handgun involved crime.

 

[oggbashan]

...

In England, no one but police are supposed to even own a hand gun. Ask the English here how well that works.

...

UN Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country



Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
# 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
# 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
# 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
# 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
# 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
# 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
# 15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
# 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
# 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
# 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
# 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
# 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
# 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
# 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
# 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
# 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
# 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
# 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
# 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
# 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
# 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

The UK's rate is significantly lower than the US's.

Og

 

[TxRad]

UN Crime Statistics > Murders with firearms (per capita) (most recent) by country



Showing latest available data.
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 South Africa: 0.719782 per 1,000 people
# 2 Colombia: 0.509801 per 1,000 people
# 3 Thailand: 0.312093 per 1,000 people
# 4 Zimbabwe: 0.0491736 per 1,000 people
# 5 Mexico: 0.0337938 per 1,000 people
# 6 Belarus: 0.0321359 per 1,000 people
# 7 Costa Rica: 0.0313745 per 1,000 people
# 8 United States: 0.0279271 per 1,000 people
# 9 Uruguay: 0.0245902 per 1,000 people
# 10 Lithuania: 0.0230748 per 1,000 people
# 11 Slovakia: 0.021543 per 1,000 people
# 12 Czech Republic: 0.0207988 per 1,000 people
# 13 Estonia: 0.0157539 per 1,000 people
# 14 Latvia: 0.0131004 per 1,000 people
# 15 Macedonia, The Former Yugoslav Republic of: 0.0127139 per 1,000 people
# 16 Bulgaria: 0.00845638 per 1,000 people
# 17 Portugal: 0.00795003 per 1,000 people
# 18 Slovenia: 0.00596718 per 1,000 people
# 19 Switzerland: 0.00534117 per 1,000 people
# 20 Canada: 0.00502972 per 1,000 people
# 21 Germany: 0.00465844 per 1,000 people
# 22 Moldova: 0.00448934 per 1,000 people
# 23 Hungary: 0.00439692 per 1,000 people
# 24 Poland: 0.0043052 per 1,000 people
# 25 Ukraine: 0.00368109 per 1,000 people
# 26 Ireland: 0.00298805 per 1,000 people
# 27 Australia: 0.00293678 per 1,000 people
# 28 Denmark: 0.00257732 per 1,000 people
# 29 Spain: 0.0024045 per 1,000 people
# 30 Azerbaijan: 0.00227503 per 1,000 people
# 31 New Zealand: 0.00173482 per 1,000 people
# 32 United Kingdom: 0.00102579 per 1,000 people

The UK's rate is significantly lower than the US's.

Og

Yes it is Og but then again so is the total population.

I can't remember so I will ask. How long ago did handgun laws go into effect and how prevalent were handguns before the law went into effect?

Oh yes, and one more question. What is the usual penalty for using a handgun to commit a crime?

 

[oggbashan]

Yes it is Og but then again so is the total population.

I can't remember so I will ask. How long ago did handgun laws go into effect and how prevalent were handguns before the law went into effect?

Oh yes, and one more question. What is the usual penalty for using a handgun to commit a crime?

Those figures are per 1000 of population so the different size of the countries doesn't count.

Handgun laws have been in effect since 1919 but the most recent ones that banned all are only a few years old. Handguns were not widely held before the most recent law.

Penalty? Depends. Those figures are for MURDERS with a firearm. Usual UK penalty is life which in effect is 12 years in jail and rest of life on licence.

Og

 

[TxRad]

Those figures are per 1000 of population so the different size of the countries doesn't count.

Handgun laws have been in effect since 1919 but the most recent ones that banned all are only a few years old. Handguns were not widely held before the most recent law.

Penalty? Depends. Those figures are for MURDERS with a firearm. Usual UK penalty is life which in effect is 12 years in jail and rest of life on licence.

Og

I understand that it is per 1000 but that still doesn't take into account that a larger population will or should have more crazies and criminals running around.

So you have/had fewer handguns to start with. I'd hate to think of the millions that are over here and trying to control them.

I figured the penalty would be much stiffer. Interesting.

 

[oggbashan]

I understand that it is per 1000 but that still doesn't take into account that a larger population will or should have more crazies and criminals running around.

So you have/had fewer handguns to start with. I'd hate to think of the millions that are over here and trying to control them.

I figured the penalty would be much stiffer. Interesting.

You don't seem to understand the statistics. Per 1000 of population levels out other inequalities.

The usual penalty for USING a firearm for robbery etc is 5 years = just over 2 years actual jail time.

In the UK you are ten times more likely to die in a road accident than by firearm and the UK road death statistics are nearly the lowest in Europe.

Og

 

[voluptuary_manque]

The British are just law-abiding. What the explanation for that might be I have no idea.

However, if you do some demographic research you will find the horrifying fact that the vast majority of homicides in the U.S. are among our 'minority' populations, chiefly black and hispanic. The 'white' population has a homicide rate on par with Canada's.

Again what the explanation for that might be (aside from JBJ's predictable response), I have no idea.

However, in this case, I do believe the perp was white . . . and obviously out of his gourd.

 

[R. Richard]

I note the Mexico is number 5 on the hit parade. It's damn near impossible for an average Mexican citizen to obtain a gun, handgun or rifle. The average Mexican has his only gun experience in the army. Yet the murder rate via firearms is quite high. There are two reasons.

There are Mexican drug gangs and they have handguns, rifles, machine guns, RPGs and even some heavy weapons. There are also rogues who illegally import firearms into Mexico. I'm very close to some of the latter. (I know El Gabacho, but I certainly don't endorse his nefarious activities.)

The drug gangs have any number of trained users of firearms. The average Mexican who obtains a handgun is probably of more danger to himself, rather than his intended victim. However, Mexico is a good example of very strict gun control laws.

 

[TE999]

As has been stated, the effect of gun control is to keep guns out of the hands of honest, law-abiding citizens.

The criminals and the crazies will find ways to get guns, regardless of gun control rules. And then, they get to use their illegal guns against unarmed citizens.

In New York City, where I used to live (or whatever,) it's damn near impossible for the average, law-abiding citizen to legally possess a handgun. The politicians and/or the rich can easily obtain a gun permit. Rosie O'Donnel, who is adamently opposed to hand guns always used an armed bodyguard. NYC has a very high rate of handgun involved crime.

New York City passed it's strict gun control legislation in the early 1900's not to protect it's citizens, but to protect the criminal cartels that ran the city through bought politicians, judges and cops. They didn't want the average citizen to be armed, just them. Hence the old saying 'When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns'.

 

[xssve]

Sure, but where did he get the gun if it wasn't from a "law abiding citizen".

The rhetoric wears a little thin when you consider that.

It's largely the result of phenomena elucidated in another old saying: "money talks".

 

[Boxlicker101]

Sure, but where did he get the gun if it wasn't from a "law abiding citizen".

The rhetoric wears a little thin when you consider that.

It's largely the result of phenomena elucidated in another old saying: "money talks".

He probably stole it from a law-abiding citizen or from another criminal. Or, he may have bought it from one of his criminal contacts. He also may have bought it from a dealer, using phony identification.

 

[rgraham666]

The British are just law-abiding. What the explanation for that might be I have no idea.

However, if you do some demographic research you will find the horrifying fact that the vast majority of homicides in the U.S. are among our 'minority' populations, chiefly black and hispanic. The 'white' population has a homicide rate on par with Canada's.

Again what the explanation for that might be (aside from JBJ's predictable response), I have no idea.

However, in this case, I do believe the perp was white . . . and obviously out of his gourd.

There's still a very strong streak of frontier mentality in the U.S. 'Real men' solve their problems with their guns.

As far as the murder rate being higher amongst blacks and Hispanics, that has to do with poverty. Poverty breeds despair and despair breeds violence. A century ago the murder rate was higher among the poor of the population, which tended to be immigrants and Jews.

 

[Boxlicker101]

There's still a very strong streak of frontier mentality in the U.S. 'Real men' solve their problems with their guns.

As far as the murder rate being higher amongst blacks and Hispanics, that has to do with poverty. Poverty breeds despair and despair breeds violence. A century ago the murder rate was higher among the poor of the population, which tended to be immigrants and Jews.

Personally, I thnk the murder rate using guns is high among minorities because of gangs, especially drug gangs. The situation was rather similar among white immigrants, especially Irish, but it would have been closer to 150 years ago than 100.

 

[R. Richard]

There is no practical way to stop people from getting guns. If a criminal wants a gun, he/she/it will steal a gun (including from the scumbags,) buy a gun from outside the banned area, or even make a gun (back in the early days, young gang members made 'zip' guns from car radio antennas.)

Once a criminal has a gun, the average unarmed citizen is defensloess against the armed criminal. The scumbags are not required to protect citizens, claim to not have the manpower to protect citizens and are not interested in protecting citizens, doughnut shops excepted.

Perhaps strangely, criminals are afraid of armed citizens. A lot of average citizens will train themselves to use a self protection gun, just as they train themselves to do their daily work. The average criminal doesn't work and won't spend the time to train to use a gun. However, the thing that most terrifies the criminal is that confronting an armed citizen can result in a instant death sentence for the criminal. On the other hand, the scumbags will kiss a criminal on the ass, feed the criminbal, house the criminal and even doctor the criminal.

Think about it.