Sailing in the 1800's

[BlackShanglan]

I realize, of course, how utterly ridiculous it is that I cannot write a work of erotic fiction without asking these sorts of obscure questions. Nonetheless, if any kind reader or writer is familiar with the topic, I am need of information about sailing ships from the 1860's.

Specifically, I have two characters leaving Portsmouth in 1865 and I need to send them somewhere, preferably tropical, that will take at least a month to reach. Being relatively unfamiliar with the history of sailing ships, I don't know where people sailed to from Portsmouth, how long it took to get places, or what sorts of ships were in usage then. (Other than a general hope that sailing had not been thoroughly replaced by steam at this time.) Any advice is much appreciated.

Oh, and might one assume that the loss of a mizzen mast is indeed a thing possible in a bad and sudden storm?

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm hot all over - how erotic -

Shanglan

 

[Guest]

well.. there was the slavery triangle.. but not from portsmouth..
go have a look here:
Mystic seaport

you also might want to look into some of antonio jacobsens art work, depicting sailing vessles of that time.

no, you certainly wouldnt want to lose a mizzen mast.. or any mast for that matter since there were no motors to help navigate back then..*grin*

think about the cabins that were offered.. not much really but for the captains quarters.. even travelers didnt often have that luxury. it was honest to god dreary travel... hard to be romantic in that light.. but.. it is fiction so you can make it what you want.

good luck and best wishes
v~

 

[dr_mabeuse]

I’m a Patrick O’Brian fanatic, and can probably tell you more than you want to know about the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars. That’s from about 1795-1815, but I think ships were pretty much uncganged until the advent of iron ships in about the 1880's. Merchant ships back then were pretty much like RN ships but less so, if you know what I mean.

First of all, do you mean Portsmouth. England or Portsmouth, Virginia?

Portsmouth UK was the main base of the Royal Navy during the Napoleonic Wars and as far as I know is still in use. During the wars, fleets of merchant ships were assembled in Portsmouth to meet up with RN ships, so there was a lot of merchant shipping coming and going, though commonly the merchantmen would proceed up the Thames to London for their loading and unloading. Sailors of the time often referred to Portsmouth as "Pompey", for all the brass and warships that were there.

If you need to get your characters somepleace warm in a month, you could have them swing into the Mediterranean through Gibraltar and maybe end up in N. Africa or Malta or southern Spain. I think that passage took about a month. South/Central America took about 2 months.

The American civil war did a lot to prove the advantages of iron ships, but in 1865 they still would have been mostly of wood and the few ships that had steam engines still relied mostly on sail and used the engines only when becalmed or for pilot work--coming in and out of port. Cargo/passenger ships were typically wooden and “ship-rigged”, which means that they were square-rigged and had thee masts, a foremast, main, and mizzen mast. Each mast had 3 (or maybe 4) sails in a merchantman (ships of war had 4 and even 5), the main, top, and topgallant sails, all square-rigged exacept for the mizzen mainsail, which was just called the mizzen sail, and was rigged on a orizontal gaffe or boom with one end attached to the mizzen mast so that it ran mostly fore-and-aft.

Of all the sails, the mizzen was most crucial, because it was what allowed the ship to tack &/or wear, that is, change direction when it was sailing close-hauled, (sailing towards the direction the wind was blowing from. Square-rigged ships could sail to within about 45 degrees of the wind; fore-and-aft rigged ships to about 30 degrees.) Losing the mizzen gaffe or mast would pretty much make the vessel unsailable if the wind were anywhere but from dead astern, which most ships didn’t like. Most ships like the wind more or less from the side or from a bit behind.

All ships carried spare masts and sails though, and it would only take a crew about a day or two to sway up a new mast once the weather cleared. Less in a man-of-war. In very rough weather, the sails would be furled and fore-and-aft sails known as stay-sails would be deployed. The fore-and-aft sails would make sure that the ship kept her head into the wind and (usually) the waves. A ship never wants to take the waves on her beam.

BTW, it was rare that a merchant ship deployed all its sails like you see in pictures. Finding just what suit of canvas a ship liked best in what kind of weather was part of the seaman’s art, and most merchantmen tended to take it easy.

---dr.M.

 

[Sshafer]

sailing

Have them sailing to Cuba. I belive a mizzen mast is the very top sail on the main mast. So yes it would be bad if you lost it in a storm if would foul the rest of the rigging on the main mast.

 

[Alex De Kok]

Have a look at the The Maritime History Virtual Archives. A lot of information, a lot of it technical. The ship in 1860 would probably be a barque or a full-rigged ship, most likely three- or four-masted. Either type could suffer the loss of a mizzen-mast. Beyond that, I have no real idea of the type of accomodation offered onboard.

You could also try a search for "emigrant ships"+1860 on Google. That will get you nearly 600 hits which might help to refine your search.

Alex

PS: Masts on a three-masted ship or barque: Fore; Main; Mizzen
On a four-master: Fore; Main; Mizzen; Jigger.
I'd go for the three-master!
If you want detail on the sails on a sailing ship, try to find a copy of 'Sailing Ship Rigs and Rigging' by Harold A. Underhill, published by Brown, Son & Ferguson, Ltd. of Glasgow, ISBN 0 85174 176 2

 

[BlackShanglan]

Humble gratitude ...

My most sincere thanks. I am amazed at the speed and depth of your kind responses.

To a few questions -

Portsmouth, England, and thank you very much for pointing out the existence of another Portsmouth. Hmmm. I shall have to keep that in mind, don't want people peering at the wrong continent.

Captain's cabin is accessible, but yes - rather grim and not at all a pleasure journey. Agreed. The story has something of a dark tone and is not "romance" per se.

Dr. M, your comments were especially helpful. Thank you for the extensive detail - it gave me a much better idea of the uses of the sails and masts and the potential consequences from damage to them. And the Mediterranean sounds ideal.

Shanglan

 

[nushu2]

I did a little googling for you and found

http://www.infa.abo.fi/~fredrik/sships/
http://website.lineone.net/~dee.ord/ships.htm

Schooners (fast, gaff-rigged fishing vessels) were around since mid 1800's but there big time wasn't until the early 20th century.

 

[OldnotDead]

I would recommend that you go read some trash

Well, at least what my MIL would refer to as 'utter trash'.

Romance writers, whether true romantics, racy or outright pornographic, have produced an awful lot of books set around sailing in both 18th and 19th centuries. LOTS of pirate ones as well. You might want to look for some novels set in the time you are interested in.

While there were passenger vessels, the largest activity involved transportation of goods and on many ships the idea of having women aboard was not always well received. It may help your story to have such a conflict, or you may be looking for a setting where women were expected to be.

You also mentioned 1865 which makes for an interesting pick of dates. The Civil War in the US ended and with it a whole industry of blockade runners that picked up goods in Europe and attempted to deliver them to the South. I'm not sure what the direct affect on European based shipping, but depending upon when you start the story, it was a major year of change in the Atlantic.

 

[Weird Harold]

Specifically, I have two characters leaving Portsmouth in 1865 and I need to send them somewhere, preferably tropical, that will take at least a month to reach. Being relatively unfamiliar with the history of sailing ships, I don't know where people sailed to from Portsmouth, how long it took to get places, or what sorts of ships were in usage then. (Other than a general hope that sailing had not been thoroughly replaced by steam at this time.) Any advice is much appreciated.

From just a quick check of some of the links provided by others, it seems that England to Australia only took 120 days and New York to London took about 14-15 days for the fastest sailing ships -- i.e. "Clipper" ships, which were just hitting their peak around 1865.

If I were you, I'd do a little searching through the links provided and find similar pages on maritime history to find a specific ship from the time period of your story. Then research that specific ship for the details you need.

Once you have the information you need, create a fictitious sister ship of your specific historical example that you can sail when and where you wish.

Researching a single ship is much less work than researching and entire world-wide industry with thousands of potential ship types and configurations.

http://www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Merchant/Sail/S/Success(1840).html is an example of the kind of ship you might use as a model.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I realize, of course, how utterly ridiculous it is that I cannot write a work of erotic fiction without asking these sorts of obscure questions. Nonetheless, if any kind reader or writer is familiar with the topic, I am need of information about sailing ships from the 1860's.

Specifically, I have two characters leaving Portsmouth in 1865 and I need to send them somewhere, preferably tropical, that will take at least a month to reach. Being relatively unfamiliar with the history of sailing ships, I don't know where people sailed to from Portsmouth, how long it took to get places, or what sorts of ships were in usage then. (Other than a general hope that sailing had not been thoroughly replaced by steam at this time.) Any advice is much appreciated.

Oh, and might one assume that the loss of a mizzen mast is indeed a thing possible in a bad and sudden storm?

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm hot all over - how erotic -

Shanglan

Sailing from Portsmouth you will have one of three tyupes of ships, each type will give you a very narrow range of hull types and on board accomdations.

English warships, crewed by the Royal navy might make voages as far as the south seas with tahitti or Fiji being the destinations. average ship type for such a voyage would be a frigate in general, although larger men of war could do it and it is possible a sloop could too.

Sometimes you would have merchant ships. English ships could be based on several hull types, depending on where they were sailing.

Merchant ships of other nations might make port at Portsmouth, this would open up huge numbers of possibilites in both ships and types of crews.

Edited: Before you begin such a story, it would behoove you to read and research. I have a good deal of knowledge of some sailing ships as well as what conditions you could expect on board. While it seems a romantic, dreamy setting, if you stay with the facts it really isn't. Slight derivations from factual reality will probably be your best recourse.

-Colly

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Re: Re: Sailing in the 1800's

From just a quick check of some of the links provided by others, it seems that England to Australia only took 120 days and New York to London took about 14-15 days for the fastest sailing ships -- i.e. "Clipper" ships, which were just hitting their peak around 1865.

New York to London might have taken 2 weeks, but London to New York took more like 3-4 weeks.

Sailing ships didn't just go from A to B by the most direct route. They had to take prevailing winds and currents into account, so sailing from Portsmouth to New York, a ship would typically sail southwest to the Azores, then sail west across the midatlantic to take advantage of the northeasterly tradewinds in a broad curve, then up the coast of North America to New York.

If you're sailing from Portsmouth to the Med, though, it's a pretty straight shot.

I might very well be wrong, but I don't think clippers usually booked passengers. Clipper ships were the Fed Ex of their day, and the cargo they could carry was usually worth more than a passenger would be willing to pay.

On a typical merchantman a passenger would probably be given a small (4'X6' wasn't unknown) cabin with canvas walls so the cabin could be set up or knocked down as desired. It took a hell of a lot of men to crew a sailing ship, and it was extremely crowded.

---dr.M.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Intriguing associations ...

I am fascinated by the associations that sailing ships appear to spur (as well as continuingly grateful for the many excellent suggestions - that "sister ship" idea seems a very sensible way to make sure that I am getting facts straight. Ho hum, off to the shipping manifests). Perhaps I should have given more information from the start. Apologies. I have a bad habit of being close about details that might be useful. I get a little obsessive about not undoing my own attempts to subvert reader expectation.

Romance. Interestingly, a word I never mentioned despite its frequent apperance in the thread. Yes, I agree - there is that tendency to view ships, God knows why, as exciting dreamy romantic locations, as Colleen Thomas points out. Fortunately, I am blessedly free of this assumption and am using my sailing ship as a trope for containment, repression, and mental disintegration. Fear not, no ballroom-sized staterooms or elegant soirees are envisioned.

This might have perhaps been more clear if I had indicated from the start that my characters are not passengers.

And that pretty much clears up that awkward "women on board" issue as well. The only woman stays in Portsmouth (England).

As for the nature of the ship, I am thinking something small - merchantman is sounding about right, and I will pursue that suggestion of trying to find an actual ship on which to base it.

Cheers

Shanglan

 

[Weird Harold]

Re: Re: Re: Sailing in the 1800's

I might very well be wrong, but I don't think clippers usually booked passengers. Clipper ships were the Fed Ex of their day, and the cargo they could carry was usually worth more than a passenger would be willing to pay.

There are numerous accounts of travel by Clipper Ship in the historical record -- a large portionof them from the 49ers traveling around the horn to the California Gold Rush.

Clippers were primarily the FedEx of the day, but they were also the Concorde of their day and many were fitted with permanent passenger staterooms. A few were even in primary passenger service -- I believe the White Star Line began with (or pioneered) Clipper Service for passengers.

At any rate, BlackShanglan's story doesn't suit Clipper Service unless his characters get shanghai'd as crew on an East India Clipper or Australia run.

 

[nushu2]

Joseph Conrad wrote a number of high seas novels that dealt with discipline and order aboard ships. (Nostromo, Lord Jim, etc). Dark reading though. More intellectual and emotional than action.

Most of his writings (almost everything classic) can be found at:

http://www.gutenberg.net/

(Incredible project that survives by donations)

There was a certain dialect. Welcome to the wonderful world of historical fiction, where research takes much more time than writing.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Intriguing associations ...

I am fascinated by the associations that sailing ships appear to spur (as well as continuingly grateful for the many excellent suggestions - that "sister ship" idea seems a very sensible way to make sure that I am getting facts straight. Ho hum, off to the shipping manifests). Perhaps I should have given more information from the start. Apologies. I have a bad habit of being close about details that might be useful. I get a little obsessive about not undoing my own attempts to subvert reader expectation.

Romance. Interestingly, a word I never mentioned despite its frequent apperance in the thread. Yes, I agree - there is that tendency to view ships, God knows why, as exciting dreamy romantic locations, as Colleen Thomas points out. Fortunately, I am blessedly free of this assumption and am using my sailing ship as a trope for containment, repression, and mental disintegration. Fear not, no ballroom-sized staterooms or elegant soirees are envisioned.

This might have perhaps been more clear if I had indicated from the start that my characters are not passengers.

And that pretty much clears up that awkward "women on board" issue as well. The only woman stays in Portsmouth (England).

As for the nature of the ship, I am thinking something small - merchantman is sounding about right, and I will pursue that suggestion of trying to find an actual ship on which to base it.

Cheers

Shanglan

If you want something small a merchantman probably won't fit your needs. these ships were generally deep draft, but to keep expenses down, most of them had small crews (relative to the excessive crew needed on a man of war) with few amenities.

I would suggest the possibility of a sloop, perhaps one heading for the Carribean, a good destination could be Jamacia. Sloops were samll, usually traveled down to a set point on the african continent, crossed to the azores, then entered the Carribean by way of trinidad.

-Colly

 

[BlackShanglan]

*smacking sound of palm hitting forehead*

More the fool I. I'm looking at a copy of "Lord Jim" right in front of me. Why on earth did I not think of Conrad?

Many thanks, Nushu.

Shanglan

 

[Alex De Kok]

For something small, Colly's suggestion of a sloop makes sense. Otherwise a Brig, Brigantine or Schooner might suit. Schooners often had relatively small crews compared to the full-rigged ships.

Alex

 

[snooper]

There is an author called Herman Melville who wrote a non-erotic book called Moby Dick and a number of others. He actually served on sailing ships in the 1860s before he took up writing, so what he says is likely to be authentic. A lot of his work can be accessed here.

 

[BlackShanglan]

Another related query ...

Hmm. Have I pushed myself into a corner on the topic of age? How old would someone have to be to have command of a small ship - say a sloop or a schooner. I've just realized that my captain might need to age abruptly. 24/5 is sounding awfully young now that I think of it. Yes? No?

Shanglan

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Re: Another related query ...

Hmm. Have I pushed myself into a corner on the topic of age? How old would someone have to be to have command of a small ship - say a sloop or a schooner. I've just realized that my captain might need to age abruptly. 24/5 is sounding awfully young now that I think of it. Yes? No?

Shanglan

Young officers were rare, but not unheard of. Nelson was in his twenties I believe when he commanded his first ship. It isn't that far fetched for a small ship. Especially if you choose a ship that isn't a war ship. Many merchant captains would be the scions of wealthy families, espescially in the states, where the yankee merchant families were strong.

-Colly

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Colly’s right in that Nelson was made Post Captain—a rank that no longer existed by 1865—at the age of 20, but Nelson was quite extraordinary. Most of the the English merchant fleet (I can;t speak about the Americans) was made up of ex Royal Navy men: ex-officers whose careers had reached a dead end or who just opted for the higher pay of commercial service. A merchant Captain of 25 would have been pretty rare.

But this ventures into the question of just how historically accurate do you have to be in writing this kind of fiction? To me, the idea of worrying whether a ship would have been ship-rigged or barquentine, or a hermaphrodite-schooner, a xebec or snow, whether it would have had cross-catharpings or reeved its futtock-shrouds through the topgallant crosstrees is pretty much overkill in a porn story.

I mean, if you’re Patrick O’Brian, you’re going to go so far as to be accurate on Ottoman financial policy in the Levant in 1805 and the internal politics of the etymological wing of the Royal Society under Sir Joseph Banks, but as a little romantic background for a fuck-story, I think there’s such thing as overkill.

I would put them on a three or four masted ship with a captain as young and as dashing as I wanted him to be, and the hell with it. I would have them eating romantic candle-lit dinners in the captain's cabin and strolling alone in the moonlight if I wanted. People are going to read the story for the sex and romance, not for its historical veracity.

---dr.M.

 

[Weird Harold]

Colly’s right in that Nelson was made Post Captain—a rank that no longer existed by 1865—at the age of 20, but Nelson was quite extraordinary. Most of the the English merchant fleet (I can;t speak about the Americans) was made up of ex Royal Navy men: ex-officers whose careers had reached a dead end or who just opted for the higher pay of commercial service. A merchant Captain of 25 would have been pretty rare.

Rare yes, but not unheard of.

It was a fairly common practice among Yankee Trader Families to assign a young scion of the family as Captain with an "elderly" and experienced First Mate as a mentor. I can imagine a few English Nobles following that practice as well.

Nepotism and cash-for commissions put a lot of very young men in positions they weren't qualified for and in charge of older more experienced soldiers and sailors in the mid-1800's.

 

[Alex De Kok]

There are cases on record of teenage skippers of small coasting vessels in the UK. Say something like a Thames barge, which was not restricted to the Thames of course but was a coasting vessel in its own right. But I think the good Doctor M has the right idea - just go tell your story!

Alex

 

[BlackShanglan]

There are cases on record of teenage skippers of small coasting vessels in the UK. Say something like a Thames barge, which was not restricted to the Thames of course but was a coasting vessel in its own right. But I think the good Doctor M has the right idea - just go tell your story!

Alex

And so I have But if anyone wants to peg darts at this and tell me that it makes no sense at all, I would be immensely grateful if you'd do it now while I am still fooling around with the style.

We now have the Hesperus, I am assuming a sloop but it's not identified specifically in the text, that leaves Portsmouth on the evening tide January tenth, gets hit by a storm on the 16th, loses the mizzen mast (let's live dangerously), repairs and limps into La Coruna (northern Spain) by the 19th. They stop there four days, patch and lay in more water, and make Lisbon by February 18th. (Yeah, I cut them short; didn't need the 2 months after all.)

Good enough to pass without rolling of eyes at authorial idiocy?

Shanglan

 

[Alex De Kok]

I just read your summary. Looks okay, except for one thing. I've always understood a sloop to be single-masted, hence no mizzen, although until the 17th century the term was applied to vessels with up to three masts. John Paul Jones' Providence was (and still is) single-masted and that was American War of Independence period.

A schooner might suit, but it would have to be three-masted, as a two-masted schooner has only fore and main. The only two-masted vessel I can think of with main and mizzen is a ketch.

You could always have the topmast carried away, instead of losing the mizzen...

Alex