Sadistic parents or happy travellers?

[Keroin]

While perusing some Vegas travel forums lately, I couldn’t help but notice several mentions of the number of children, (badly behaved was most often the complaint), on the strip. One poster was upset about a woman who was, essentially, using her stroller as a kind of battering ram to make her way along the crowded sidewalk of the strip…at midnight.

I’m all for children traveling. The sooner a child experiences other cultures, the better, IMO. However, I also think, before the age of, say, five, parents need to carefully consider where they take their children.

Two of my friends on this island own and run a small, budget resort and they have bitched to me more than once about people who want to bring their infants here in the middle of summer – even after they have been warned about the extreme temperatures. My friends think it’s cruel and selfish, and I am inclined to agree. For about four or five months, living on this island is like living, 24/7, inside a Turkish steam bath. Only a couple of high-end resorts have air conditioning because power is so expensive. During the day, in direct sunlight, you can burn in about 10 minutes and even the shade is stifling. Even locals have a hard time but at least they, and their children, are acclimatized. Tourists coming from a northern hemisphere winter to a South Pacific summer suffer big time and their babies even more so.

My question is why do people want to travel to places like Vegas, (in July!) or a scorching tropical island, with infants and toddlers? Are they just selfish? There are plenty of child-friendly places on the planet, (that are far cheaper and easier to get to than this island), so why not go there?

Parents, have you, or would you, travel with an infant? If so, where and why?

 

[ecstaticsub]

My daughter was born in Germany a few months before we were due to move back to the states. Two weeks after she was born we took her to Belgium and Holland. We had not had the chance to visit either country before her birth and wanted to go. She did beautifully travelling in a a kangaroo type pouch in front of me where she could nurse easily and discreetly.

Other than that we mostly went to child orientated vacations (Disney World, local beach, Grandmom's house) until they were older.

Then again by the time my daughter was 12 she had been to 5 different countries and lived in 6 different states/countries.

 

[Netzach]

My question is why do people want to travel to places like Vegas, (in July!) or a scorching tropical island, with infants and toddlers? Are they just selfish?

I've been accused of ending threads with logic before, but yes.

 

[Keroin]

My daughter was born in Germany a few months before we were due to move back to the states. Two weeks after she was born we took her to Belgium and Holland. We had not had the chance to visit either country before her birth and wanted to go. She did beautifully travelling in a a kangaroo type pouch in front of me where she could nurse easily and discreetly.

Other than that we mostly went to child orientated vacations (Disney World, local beach, Grandmom's house) until they were older.

Then again by the time my daughter was 12 she had been to 5 different countries and lived in 6 different states/countries.

I'm guessing that Belgium and Holland were not drastically different in climate that Germany? I don't think it would have been that big of a transition for an infant.

I think child-oriented vacations are a good thing when kids are small.

I've been accused of ending threads with logic before, but yes.

LOL. I know but this is obviously not logic to many parents.

My friends also laugh at the number of people who ask for child discounts at their place. They say there should be a "child surcharge" because they're generally messier, make more noise and damage more stuff than 95% of adults that stay there. From my time in resort management, at a place where the clientele was primarily families with young kids, I can sure vouch for that one.

 

[nh23]

I don't know if those parents are sadist, or masochists. Traveling with small kids is no easy feat, taking them somewhere where they are going to be uncomfortable must be some level of hell.

My kids have been to several states in the US. My ex husband used to work on the road and whatever state he was in, I would pack the kids up and visit. However we only went to family friendly places in those states. Such as the mall of america in Minnesota.

I am not enough of a maso to have ever taken therm somewhere where they would be uncomfortable or complain the whole time.

 

[eastern sun]

Because it's one of my husband's favorite places in the world, we took my son to Vegas when he was two. We were there two and a half days, and spent much of it traveling the monorail and tram. (My son was a train guy, and loved it.) We also took a mile hike in the Valley of Fire at sunset - gorgeous red sand and desert rock formations, with paintings in the caves.

We loved it.

That was over ten years ago, before the current kid-friendly casinos. We just got back from a week at Vegas, where we spent most of the days at the hotel pools, and nights at The Lion King, David Copperfield, Cirque Du Soleil. Vegas is full of children. And the casinos are catering to them.

Given a choice this summer, my kids suggested Vegas.

Are we being selfish?

Pushy overstimulated moms have been annoying people forever. Tired overstimulated kids have been annoying people forever. That takes place every day in our own backyard.

Maybe people want to escape that everyday world in their fantasy vacations, and are upset to find the everyday world when they get there. (families live on those tropical islands - what should be done about their children? or are they different?)

 

[Primalex]

My question is why do people want to travel to places like Vegas, (in July!) or a scorching tropical island, with infants and toddlers? Are they just selfish? There are plenty of child-friendly places on the planet, (that are far cheaper and easier to get to than this island), so why not go there?

My sister has twins, born October. It was a tough time to raise them (her husband often not around - salesman). She was just happy when they got several months old so that vacation was actually an option. And so they drove to the sea. After a week she realized that it was still too early and more stressful than fun.

She loves them more than anything else, yet she made a wrong decision. I doubt that you can reduce the whole situation to simple attributes like selfish or sadistic. If they've never been there, maybe they just really underestimated it. Maybe they were so happy about the chance for some vacation that they didn't give every issue the proper importance. Maybe they do think it's no problem at all - after all, kids do survive there.


In the end it comes down to: Even parents are just humans with the ability to do something stupid once in a while.

 

[WriterDom]

My entire Mother's family, she was the youngest of 10, would travel as a group all the time. Thirty or so at a time up until the mid 60s. The very young children wouldn't go. My uncle took a van of uncles and aunts to New York in a van in 1985. It crashed and killed two of my aunts. One died at the scene and the other held on for a week. Pretty tragic time in my life. They probably spent more time raising me than my mother. They lived together right across the street for a long time.

 

[Keroin]

Because it's one of my husband's favorite places in the world, we took my son to Vegas when he was two. We were there two and a half days, and spent much of it traveling the monorail and tram. (My son was a train guy, and loved it.) We also took a mile hike in the Valley of Fire at sunset - gorgeous red sand and desert rock formations, with paintings in the caves.

We loved it.

That was over ten years ago, before the current kid-friendly casinos. We just got back from a week at Vegas, where we spent most of the days at the hotel pools, and nights at The Lion King, David Copperfield, Cirque Du Soleil. Vegas is full of children. And the casinos are catering to them.

Given a choice this summer, my kids suggested Vegas.

Are we being selfish?

Pushy overstimulated moms have been annoying people forever. Tired overstimulated kids have been annoying people forever. That takes place every day in our own backyard.

Maybe people want to escape that everyday world in their fantasy vacations, and are upset to find the everyday world when they get there. (families live on those tropical islands - what should be done about their children? or are they different?)

I suppose as someone who's child-free, (and I love kids, I really do), I like knowing that there are places in the world that are likewise. There don't have to be many but a few is nice. And Vegas, sin city, is one of those places where I'd like to not have to deal with kids. Sorry, that's just my POV. (I am, admittedly, selfish, BTW).

Island kids grow up on the island. They get lots of time to adjust to things like heat, humidity, mosquitoes, etc. Taking a baby from the dead of winter into this climate, where they're going to spend every night in a room with maybe only a ceiling fan, (if they're lucky), is really not fair. My friends told me about one infant that screamed non-stop the entire time it was with them, because it couldn't get any relief from the heat. I couldn't do that to a child. And believe me, these parents get ample warning before they book.

 

[Netzach]

I suppose as someone who's child-free, (and I love kids, I really do), I like knowing that there are places in the world that are likewise. There don't have to be many but a few is nice.

Asshole.

Actually, I don't care if people bring kids. I really don't. It's what you do when you bring them. And it's being willing to remove yourself and your child when the attention span ends.

ES's kid sounded like he liked Vegas. I liked Vegas when I was 8 and this was before there was anything to like except the biggest swimming pool I'd ever been in, which was enough.

What I object to are parents who drag kids around who are obviously no longer having fun, but they're wilfully oblivious to the fact.


Example - wealthy mommies who would shop the stores I worked in with small children for HOURS on end, with the kids getting disruptive, upset, bored out of their minds. Mom would halfheartedly mumble the occasional "let's behave now" to child melting down.

Poor tykes, I wanted to melt down too.
If you can't handle respnding to a four year old attention span, do not reproduce.

The example you're talking about, where the kid is obviously actively *suffering* at too young an age is just some messed up shit. Where you are is not just like renting a cabin outside Duluth or something. What the hell kind of nutcase goes remote, island, intense, middle of nowhere with a small infant? You can't wait till they're ambulatory?

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I've been accused of ending threads with logic before, but yes.

Glad I read far enough down the thread that I saw that you stole my response.

In the end it comes down to: Even parents are just humans with the ability to do something stupid once in a while.

Just when I begin to think there's absolutely no hope left for you and I'm going to have to put you on ignore (something that's only happened to 3 people in >5 years here!), you say something like this - spot on, dude!

... I like knowing that there are places in the world that are [kid-free]. There don't have to be many but a few [would be] nice.

Got to agree. While I have no problem - well, not much problem - accepting and dealing with the fact that there are lots of kids, and probably screaming/crying/attention-whoring kids, at places like DisneyWorld, Chuck E. Cheese, etc., I would like for there to be some places where *adults* are the focus and kids are not allowed (other than bars).

My "kid" will be 24 later this year, but when I was parenting, we took him to places that (1) we wanted to see, (2) we wanted him to experience, and (3) we thought he would enjoy. If he exhibited very many signs of *not* enjoying them, and/or was threatening the experience of others, we left. That includes restaurants in the middle of meals ("Waiter? We need to leave before he ruins other folks' dinner; may we have carry-out containers for the remainder of our meals?"). Unfortunately, too many people these days - especially Americans - think they're entitled to take their kids anywhere the adults want to go, and if the kid(s) make things unenjoyable for others, it's too damn bad.

Sometimes the culture in which I live disgusts me.

 

[Netzach]

[("Waiter? We need to leave before he ruins other folks' dinner; may we have carry-out containers for the remainder of our meals?

This is going the way of straight razor shaving.

If it's "kids eat free" night, and there are many of them, not just cheap places now, and I walk into one, that's OK, it's my problem. Otherwise, this is the protocol.

 

[Primalex]

This is going the way of straight razor shaving.

If it's "kids eat free" night, and there are many of them, not just cheap places now, and I walk into one, that's OK, it's my problem. Otherwise, this is the protocol.

Or you could just relax and accept children as what they are - children. No wonder that people are worried to get them when people get upset about kids all the time.

Edit:
How do you want to teach it if it just needs to be loud so that you as parent have to give up immediately and run away because you need to be worried that other "adults" are not really forgiving? Topping from the bottom - children version.

Edit2:
Maybe society should accept that raising children is not just something the parents have to stick through - but society itself has to accept it and stop being so stuck up about really minor issues. Oh, there is a kid crying while you eat your pasta? How sad - in other countries you wouldn't have a kid ruining your meal, but a bomb.

 

[eastern sun]

I suppose as someone who's child-free, (and I love kids, I really do), I like knowing that there are places in the world that are likewise. There don't have to be many but a few is nice. And Vegas, sin city, is one of those places where I'd like to not have to deal with kids. Sorry, that's just my POV. (I am, admittedly, selfish, BTW).

Island kids grow up on the island. They get lots of time to adjust to things like heat, humidity, mosquitoes, etc. Taking a baby from the dead of winter into this climate, where they're going to spend every night in a room with maybe only a ceiling fan, (if they're lucky), is really not fair. My friends told me about one infant that screamed non-stop the entire time it was with them, because it couldn't get any relief from the heat. I couldn't do that to a child. And believe me, these parents get ample warning before they book.

You should write a letter to the casinos you're interested in visiting (and by the way there are still some that are not marketing to families). Let them know that you're disappointed. It's a marketing choice on their part. With all the baby boomers having babies, there's a lot of money to be made serving families. But the families aren't gambling like the child-free adults. If the casinos think they'll lose your business because they're catering to me, they may make it less kid-friendly.

For the record, I'd like to say that I am as judgmental of the parents you're alluding to as you are. I just don't think our intolerance should be over-generalized.

 

[Netzach]

Or you could just relax and accept children as what they are - children. No wonder that people are worried to get them when people get upset about kids all the time.

Who said "all the time?"

I'm talking about Jan 31. My anniversary. 89 bucks a plate. 9 pm.

I'm hardly the "get off my lawn you damn kids" rock thrower.

I *do* accept children for what they are - which is children, which is easily bored.

If you bothered to read what I said the consternation is with parents who treat their children as mini adults in a wishful la la land of selfishness. I empathize with the two year old who is getting frustrated.

 

[Netzach]

Or you could just relax and accept children as what they are - children. No wonder that people are worried to get them when people get upset about kids all the time.

Edit:
How do you want to teach it if it just needs to be loud so that you as parent have to give up immediately and run away because you need to be worried that other "adults" are not really forgiving? Topping from the bottom - children version.

What are you teaching?

Adult conversation? How to have an attention span your brain is literally not cognitively developed for?

A two year old being a two year old isn't topping. Respnding to your two year old as such isn't bottoming.

 

[Primalex]

A two year old being a two year old isn't topping. Respnding to your two year old as such isn't bottoming.

And not responding all the time is part of raising a two year old.

 

[Netzach]

And not responding all the time is part of raising a two year old.

Then do your aversion therapy experiements AT HOME. Responding in public is the being in public contract.

Yes, everyone's child is a supergenius who is so far above level that they can manage anything, go anywhere.

Taking an earnest look at your child's personality, likes, dislikes and tolerances - it's so passe.

 

[Primalex]

Then do your aversion therapy experiements AT HOME. Responding in public is the being in public contract.

Only in your fucked up selfish mind.

Edit:

Taking an earnest look at your child's personality, likes, dislikes and tolerances - it's so passe.

Now I really know that you have no clue about what you are talking.

 

[Netzach]

Edit2:
Maybe society should accept that raising children is not just something the parents have to stick through - but society itself has to accept it and stop being so stuck up about really minor issues. Oh, there is a kid crying while you eat your pasta? How sad - in other countries you wouldn't have a kid ruining your meal, but a bomb.

Relevant how?

Oh I get it, I must be sheltered and selfish for not wanting kids and not having them.

Rather than having them just because and then ignoring their needs when it's time to go out and have MY fun my way.

 

[Netzach]

Only in your fucked up selfish mind.

Yes, welcome to my fucked up selfish mind, in which there are four or five corners of the world in which your children are not going to be greeted with eager open arms.


I should be shot, because your children must be welcome everywhere.

Actually, wait, your children are welcome in my fucked up selfish mind. I actually have crayons for them while you sit around and drink and yell at each other and pretend you're teaching them patience through mealtime.

 

[Netzach]

Only in your fucked up selfish mind.

Edit:


Now I really know that you have no clue about what you are talking.

You are so right.

Children are just small inconvenient adults. Stand firm and they'll stop crying.

 

[Primalex]

Relevant how?

Oh I get it, I must be sheltered and selfish for not wanting kids and not having them.

No, you are selfish because you expect that society can raise children without it affecting your precious valuable little life.

Rather than having them just because and then ignoring their needs when it's time to go out and have MY fun my way.

Especially you should know that there is a difference between what someone wants and what someone needs. Children only know about their wants. It's up to the parents to handle the rest. And when the parents decide that the kid is just trying to get his way and there is no other issue and so disregard it, because saying "No" IS part of raising a child, then for sure it's not your job to say something else, just because you have sensitive ears and would prefer a world where children leave their homes as adults.

 

[MisterSir]

Oh, there is a kid crying while you eat your pasta? How sad - in other countries you wouldn't have a kid ruining your meal, but a bomb.

I...

Frankly, that's the best appalling example I've ever seen somebody use. Bravo, bragoddamnvo.

 

[Keroin]

You should write a letter to the casinos you're interested in visiting (and by the way there are still some that are not marketing to families). Let them know that you're disappointed. It's a marketing choice on their part. With all the baby boomers having babies, there's a lot of money to be made serving families. But the families aren't gambling like the child-free adults. If the casinos think they'll lose your business because they're catering to me, they may make it less kid-friendly.

For the record, I'd like to say that I am as judgmental of the parents you're alluding to as you are. I just don't think our intolerance should be over-generalized.

This is a good idea. I don't think kids should be banned from the town, not at all, I just think parents need to exercise some common sense. Wheeling a stroller down a busy street, at midnight, when half the pedestrians are probably drunk, that just doesn't make sense to me. One of the other common complaints I've been reading about is the lack of supervision - kids running around the casino, while parents are off gambling or...?

(Bugsy would have just taken them in the back room - problem solved )

Asshole.

Actually, I don't care if people bring kids. I really don't. It's what you do when you bring them. And it's being willing to remove yourself and your child when the attention span ends.

ES's kid sounded like he liked Vegas. I liked Vegas when I was 8 and this was before there was anything to like except the biggest swimming pool I'd ever been in, which was enough.

What I object to are parents who drag kids around who are obviously no longer having fun, but they're wilfully oblivious to the fact.


Example - wealthy mommies who would shop the stores I worked in with small children for HOURS on end, with the kids getting disruptive, upset, bored out of their minds. Mom would halfheartedly mumble the occasional "let's behave now" to child melting down.

Poor tykes, I wanted to melt down too.
If you can't handle respnding to a four year old attention span, do not reproduce.

The example you're talking about, where the kid is obviously actively *suffering* at too young an age is just some messed up shit. Where you are is not just like renting a cabin outside Duluth or something. What the hell kind of nutcase goes remote, island, intense, middle of nowhere with a small infant? You can't wait till they're ambulatory?

I'm quite happy to wear the Asshole hat in this debate.

When I was a kid, I wasn't taken everywhere my parents went. I knew, and I assume they knew, that there are places kids just don't need to go. And, since Mr P is so big on "teaching" children, well how about teaching them that sometimes we have to wait for the things we want? Sure I want to go to a tropical island but I'm going to wait until my child is old enough to enjoy it and I don't have to risk a trip to the crappy, third world hospital when he/she gets heat exhaustion.

Or is that crazy?

Glad I read far enough down the thread that I saw that you stole my response.

Just when I begin to think there's absolutely no hope left for you and I'm going to have to put you on ignore (something that's only happened to 3 people in >5 years here!), you say something like this - spot on, dude!

Got to agree. While I have no problem - well, not much problem - accepting and dealing with the fact that there are lots of kids, and probably screaming/crying/attention-whoring kids, at places like DisneyWorld, Chuck E. Cheese, etc., I would like for there to be some places where *adults* are the focus and kids are not allowed (other than bars).

My "kid" will be 24 later this year, but when I was parenting, we took him to places that (1) we wanted to see, (2) we wanted him to experience, and (3) we thought he would enjoy. If he exhibited very many signs of *not* enjoying them, and/or was threatening the experience of others, we left. That includes restaurants in the middle of meals ("Waiter? We need to leave before he ruins other folks' dinner; may we have carry-out containers for the remainder of our meals?"). Unfortunately, too many people these days - especially Americans - think they're entitled to take their kids anywhere the adults want to go, and if the kid(s) make things unenjoyable for others, it's too damn bad.

Sometimes the culture in which I live disgusts me.

North America has become child-centric and we're all supposed to go along for the ride. This island is very, very family oriented but the locals don't bring their kids everywhere they go. I'm quite happy to interact with kids in most places, at most times. The idea that my desire to have some adult-only times and places makes me some kind of anti-social snob is ludicrous.

Especially you should know that there is a difference between what someone wants and what someone needs.

So the baby wants to spend a week in 39C heat and 100% humidity, screaming it's lungs out? Or does he/she need that?